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  • Hunt Trail Wide – 30mm too narrow for a ‘Trail’ rim?
  • Premier Icon Stablebarns
    Free Member

    Pink Bike Article

    if the link doesn’t work, here is the copy and paste text: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/rim-widths-comparison-test-mountain-bike.html

    I read the linked article on PinkBike. Very interesting ‘real world’ scientific experiment on rim width.

    After some more research (mostly internet, a few phone chats with Hunt, Stanton bikes and a mate), I’m wondering whether everything is in a bit of a lag re rim width?

    My Canyon Spectral AL 2018, came specced with DT Swiss M1900s and 2.6 Maxxis tyres. THe widest rims and tyres I’d ever owned. But it now seems that 2.6 is pushing it for a 30mm rim and I’d be better either swapping tyres to 2.4 or changing wheels to 35-40mm rims?

    A quick blast around Afan on the weekend, with this in mind, had me realising there was quite a bit of roll coming off the back tyre, when I had the pressure as low as I wanted it. It’s only the 5th time I’ve used the bike… so only now am I getting over the thrill and able to observe the relationship between rim and tyre. At first I was just revelling in the traction… as well as feeling the drag on some sections. But now I’m really starting to feel the squirm on corners.

    Moving forward, I’m building up a Stanton Slackline with 140mm Rockshox and was thinking the reviews of the Hunt Trail Wides, was making wheel choice a no brainer.

    I’d like at least a 2.5 on the front and at least a 2.4 on the rear.

    But I’m now wondering if (especially given the PinkBike article), I’d be better off with the Enduro Wides. 33mm inners, but annoyingly extra weight…

    I don’t ride heavy. But I really am wanting to enjoy maximum grip and best tyre profile, as I think it’s going to be big part of getting me to the next level of riding.

    I have never had enough time or equipment to do any proper comparisons before. But I’d love to hear any thoughts on rim and tyre combos from people that have actually tried more than the ones they use 😉

    PS I don’t have enough knowledge to know whether any wheel that uses a rim of more than 30mm width will by default be a heavier more enduro type thing… just by the nature of the extra material in the rim.

    Premier Icon jjprestidge
    Free Member

    In answer to your question – no.

    I was having this discussion with a former DH WC mechanic a few hours ago and he pointed out that almost all of the DH racers are on 25mm rims; doesn’t seem to cause them any issues.

    JP

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Side wall construction needs to be considered as well (DH and big but light tyres have very different side wall strength and rigidity), but in short, not really. Trail 2.5 tyres and 30mm rims play very nicely.

    Premier Icon w00dster
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    Don’t be saying 30mm isn’t the right size, I’ve only just moved up to this width!
    I’m running 2.6 front and 2.4 rear. With the correct pressures the tyres feel fine on those rims.

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    I find 2.6in tyres work very well with 30mm internal rims. I also suspect they’d be slightly better with 35mm ones… but there’s much less choice of those and the rims are getting heavier too, as you point out.

    If you’re interested in going a bit wider, I have some very lightly used Stans S1 Baron wheels (35mm) to flog a fair bit cheaper than the Hunts and I believe they’re only slightly heavier.

    Premier Icon Stablebarns
    Free Member

    Thanks for the offer chakaping, I’m trying to gauge whether to go wider by writing this post
    😉
    Those Barons look a good 300g heavier than the Hunts. And maybe that is the crucial tipping point. Beyond 30mm takes a rim into enduro or ‘Plus’ territory, simply by requiring too much metal to be considered a sprightly ‘Trail’ wheel.

    It seems ‘Trail’ is increasingly taking the place of what I used to call XC. ie The kind of riding one does on a normal day… it’s just that the average rider can go a lot harder and jump better etc nowadays.

    What I’m most cautious about is climbing. I definitely want my Stanton to have some zip. I love technical climbing and I love riding in the woods where I have very little in the way of long descents. Meaning, acceleration is crucial.

    Maybe 35mm trail wheels are a thing waiting to happen… like when the science/tech allows that width without a weight penalty?

    Premier Icon TomB
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    I’ve got hunt trail wides with 2.6” wtb tyres front and rear on my Solaris, and they’ve been bob on with no noticeable squirmage.

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    Hunt Enduro wheels = 1994g
    S1 Barons = 2028g

    BUT it sounds like you might be better with the Hunt Trail ones anyway if you’re genuinely doing “trail” riding.

    Premier Icon Stablebarns
    Free Member

    Yeah I was comparing them to the Trail Wides, which are 1757g not Enduros.

    I’ve been rummaging through other threads and getting such a lot of conflicting views.
    I have a feeling that article is pretty accurate in respect of the best tyre profile for average 2.4 trail tyre, being gained by using a 35mm rim. A 30mm rim creates an adequate tyre profile for a 2.4 tyre. But a 33mm or 35mm will be better. But the tester was only really measuring a descending trail… so he doesn’t address the climbing difference, of that slightky better profile sitting in a heavier wheel.

    So I’m being pulled back toward a 30mm. But I will definitely not be putting a 2.6 tyre on it.

    However… what to do with my Full susser? Change the wheels to suit 2.6 tyres… or shrink the tyres? :-0

    Premier Icon squirrelking
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    Peaty used to race on 721s, the max tyre size for my 729s is 3.0.

    I run 2.5s happily in a 30mm rim, what I don’t do is run the pressures so low that the tyre is rolling about everywhere. If you want stretched tyres buy a dub.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Just ignore that article, it’s junk, no one else is paying any attention to it. Get the EnduroWides if you want stronger, and don’t mind heavier, but don’t get hung up about that 3mm extra width.

    Premier Icon poah
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    put a rim defender of some sort in the tyre and that will stop the squirm. a huck norris isn’t particularly heavy.

    Premier Icon hols2
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    so he doesn’t address the climbing difference, of that slightky better profile sitting in a heavier wheel.

    Running the same tyre on a slightly wider, fractionally heavier rim isn’t going to make any measurable difference to your climbing. Climbing is pure brute power-weight ratio. A bike and rider typically weigh 150 to 200 pounds combined. Saving 8 ounces is about a quarter of a percent.

    Premier Icon gribble
    Free Member

    I have the Trail Wide in non Boost. Absolutely fine last summer with 2.6 DHR front on my bird. Might run something lighter this summer, but currently work fine with 2.6 Hillbilly.

    I have 2012 Mavic Crossmax SX rims that I have had 2.5 Maxxis tyres on.

    Premier Icon davidd
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    Have been on Hunt trail wides for about 4 months now. Using 2.6 tyres back and front(Hans dampf/magic Mary). No problems and no concerns about tyres rolling.

    Premier Icon Sir HC
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    null

    I have a set of 30mm DT XM481’s and a set of Stan’s Arch Mk3’s, 4mm difference in width with the same tyres, I can tell the difference!

    Premier Icon snotrag
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    Yup, I used to run 2.5 Maxxis on D321 rims for years with no issues.

    I’ve got a very modern 140mm travel trail bike and I’m still using 2.3 Maxxis and 26mm rims. There is no way I need ‘more’ grip than these can give and I run 22psi rear, 20psi front – I havent been killed to death yet.

    Premier Icon snotrag
    Full Member

    null

    Now, I like Pinkbike, but this is perhaps the best example of marketing graphics I’ve seen in a while!

    Its pretty obvious that the load on the larger rim/tyre is being applied perpendicular to the wheel axis – hence the shape. However the narrow rim/tyre, the load is clearly coming from a different angle in order to result in that shape.

    They have even used the old favourite – Green is good, Red is bad!

    I know there are benefits to wider rims and yes, my next rims might well be wider but this really did make me chuckle.

    Premier Icon a11y
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    Ha, I’m failing on the marketing. Ordered 35mm rims yesterday to replace 30mm ones as I’m not keen on the profile of the 2.6 on the current rim. I’m led to believe these tyres size up BIG for 2.6 compared to the likes of Maxxis though.

    Premier Icon johnw1984
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    Through trial and error I’ve found that if my tyres are squirming under me on cornering it’s either the side walls are not supportive enough or the pressure is too low for my weight.

    2.6 tyre on a 30mm rim should be spot on really for most riders.

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    So I’m being pulled back toward a 30mm. But I will definitely not be putting a 2.6 tyre on it.

    The 2.6in Magic Mary works very well on a 30mm internal rim.

    Don’t be afraid to give that a try.

    Premier Icon fivealive
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    Another vote for 29/30mm Hunt trail wide is a winner for up to 2.5/2.6 tyres on 29er. Feels so stable especially at lower pressures. I also run Hunt XC wide at 25mm and these are great up to 2.4, these are quicker on the dry summer trails, but the grip I get with 2.5/2.6 on 29/30mm is inspiring this time of year.

    Premier Icon Stablebarns
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    WOW! So sifting out the “I ride this and it’s fine” etc….

    Pressure and squirm issue: Yes it makes sense that a different tyre will have different sidewalls etc. So maybe a thicker sidewall at the same pressure won’t move as much. Like I said, I really haven’t had enough options, with stabilized variables (like running different tyres on the same bike and wheels etc). So I’m very open to the idea that my negative feeling from cornering on the 2.6 Rekon at 20-22psi (which is the pressure I liked it at for aiding with trail chatter and vibration), could be resolved or overturned by using a different 2.6 tyre.

    The points made in the article Sir HC posted (where do I find that article Sir HC??), are really interesting. I presume there is always a trade off…. but I’ve never heard that one about agility before? THat would really steer me back the other way. Much as I love descending, I really don’t want to lose agility. But it seems like a tricky balance, if a larger volume tyre can give more grip and a better profile from a wider rim can aid that further… but then a rounder profile makes changing direction more playful/lighter…. It’s stating to sound like there is a swwet spot?

    I wonder if like so many current mtb issues, the dominance/priority of descending is blurring things.

    I notice when I’m at trail centres, that fewer and fewer people actually ride up the single track. THey use the fire roads, uplifts, or ‘e’.

    Premier Icon Sir HC
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    The points made in the article Sir HC posted (where do I find that article Sir HC??), are really interesting. I presume there is always a trade off…. but I’ve never heard that one about agility before? THat would really steer me back the other way

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cube-stereo-bike-checks-zakarias-johansen-vs-greg-callaghan-finale-ligure-ews.html

    It’s stating to sound like there is a swwet spot?

    Personal preference, look at the WC DH, there is a mix of rim sizes. Tahnee on 511’s and Danny Hart on 471’s.

    I prefer my wheels to be on the lower end of the tension scales, makes them a bit more forgiving, especially on a full carbon frame. I dont like carbon rims, far too stiff and very harsh, also they are fragile.

    Premier Icon Yak
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    Through trial and error I’ve found that if my tyres are squirming under me on cornering it’s either the side walls are not supportive enough or the pressure is too low for my weight.

    This

    2.6 Rekon at 20-22psi (which is the pressure I liked it at for aiding with trail chatter and vibration),

    and imo the right pressure for ‘trail chatter’ is usually too soft for cornering without squirming. Go a bit harder and see how it corners.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    So I’m very open to the idea that my negative feeling from cornering on the 2.6 Rekon at 20-22psi (which is the pressure I liked it at for aiding with trail chatter and vibration), could be resolved or overturned by using a different 2.6 tyre.

    First up… the Rekon isn’t a 2.6 tyre, even if that’s printed in the sidewall. Secondly it has light unsupportive XC focused sidewalls that are unsuitable for super low pressures. Plenty of 2.4 or 2.5 tyres will give you the same volume, with firmer supportive sidewalls (but weigh more).

    Premier Icon calv145
    Full Member

    I think you may be overthinking this a bit. If the back tyre is rolling on the rim, add some air or if pushing really hard then a rim insert but if this is the case then Hunt trail wides probably aren’t the wheels for you. I have run tyres from 2.2 up to 2.5 on 30mm internal rims and to be honest the 2.2 tyres don’t sit right at all. 2.5 Maxxis wide trails are the best fit.

    I do have a set of Hunt trail wides and they are great wheels for trail riding….however don’t go abusing them on anything more as they probably won’t be strong enough. They are fairly light for trail wheels and Hunt make the enduro wheels for a good reason. I have some DT Swiss E1700 wheels for anything really rocky, or bike parks as the rims are bullet proof (at an obvious weight penalty).

    Premier Icon TheGhost
    Full Member

    Based on my experience riding different sizes I work to this.

    2.4 = 30mm
    2.6 = 35mm
    2.8 = 40mm

    Premier Icon Stablebarns
    Free Member

    First up… the Rekon isn’t a 2.6 tyre, even if that’s printed in the sidewall. Secondly it has light unsupportive XC focused sidewalls that are unsuitable for super low pressures. Plenty of 2.4 or 2.5 tyres will give you the same volume, with firmer supportive sidewalls (but weigh more).

    Ah ha! THanks Kelvin. I was thinking that it felt a bit light when it punctured (not a pinch btw, just a straight forward stab from a sharp welsh rock) and I was able to see exactly how supple the sidewall was. I would never think of any 2.6 tyre as being XC? And on a full sus trail bike? Why did Canyon spec that?

    I was wanting to replace it for durability reasons, but it’s good to know that the squirm is likely to be from the sidewall.

    and imo the right pressure for ‘trail chatter’ is usually too soft for cornering without squirming. Go a bit harder and see how it corners.

    Yak, I did and it cornered better. But then shook and buzzed me over all the rocks. The whole point of this was to see if I could have a little more cake…. Else I’d ride up on my 29er XC bike, do the technical descents on the Canyon and any flow bits on the Stanton… seamlessly transitioning between bikes like Danny Mac, aided by my support team 🙂

    Premier Icon Yak
    Full Member

    Sounds like you need to swap that Rekon then. Something like a dhf/dhr2/aggressor etc in a 2.4wt or 2.5wt, and in the lightest exo ‘trail’ sidewall. It will be more supportive than the xc rekon and probably 200g or so heavier. dunno – a bit heavier.

    Premier Icon Stablebarns
    Free Member

    THanks for the tip Yak, I’ll look at those.

    Calv145, it’s good to hear your high opinion of bothe the DT 1700s and the Hunts. So it makes sense to leave the the 1700s on the Canyon, but get a stronger tyre and the Hunts do sound like what I want on the Stanton.

    TheGhost’s mini graph is what I was gathering from the articles though…

    2.4 = 30mm
    2.6 = 35mm
    2.8 = 40mm

    But I now realise how much this effected by the specific tyre.

    Thanks all.

    Premier Icon simons_nicolai-uk
    Free Member

    I’ve been riding 2.4 Conti’s on 25mm internal DT EX1501s for most of the last year. Last few rides have been on 35mm internal rim with Maxxis 2.5WT. I dropped the pressures about 4psi front and back vs the 2.4’s. It’s wet and draggy out there at the moment but while the grip was fantastic they felt really hard work climbing.

    I’m yet to be convinced that those measurements aren’t really the maximum rim width that works well rather than the optimum.

    Premier Icon nickfrog
    Free Member

    OP, I think you’re overthinking this. I could understand if you’re were competing at the top of EWS standings though.
    I would also ignore the “The Clock Doesn’t Lie” bit too in the article. It probably does as reproducing two identical runs is impossible, not to mention placebo etc…
    I know you may want not want to hear this but I have tried 2.35, 2.6 and 2.8 NN on my 30mm and settled for 2.8 as it felt the best choice for my trail riding. There is a lot of subjectivity too, which only actually experience will reflect rather than a tad too much rationalisation.

    Premier Icon trailtom
    Free Member

    Might also be worth considering the brand of tires you run as certain companies design their tires to fit there range of wheels,

    Example from WTB

    Vigilante 2.5 and 2.6 are optimized for use with i29 rims, whereas Vigilante 2.8 is optimized for use with i35 rims

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Full Member

    Hunt Trail Wide wheels are great, I had a set on my last bike for 18months before I sold it. I wouldn’t hesitate to buy them again.

    I also think 30mm internal rim width is the sweet spot for trail riding, it’s perfect with any tyres in the 2.35″ – 2.8″ range in my experience. I’m currently using 29 x 2.6″ and they’re great.

    Premier Icon endomick
    Free Member

    2.4 with 30mm seem perfect IMO. Try 2.4 rear and maybe just up to 33/35mm front with 2.6 running typically lower pressure.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
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    There’s a whole load of comprimises though, you will never find an ideal, even if there’s a fastest option for a track.

    e.g. more air = less squirm, less air = more grip, so the dryer and gripper the track, the higher the cornering speed and more air you need. You cant just keep going down as at some point you have more grip and speed than the tyre can keep it’s shape under.

    As an extreme example, I run down to 7psi in my fat bike at Tunnel Hill, and upto 15 at Swinley. The trails are quite similar but one is man made (so grip is rarely a consideration) and the other is mud (so you’re never going fast enough). And that’s with an almost 1:1.25 ratio of rim:tyre width, not the 1:2 you’re discussing.

    so he doesn’t address the climbing difference, of that slightky better profile sitting in a heavier wheel.

    I was going to post a reply, but hols summed it up completely.

    Running the same tyre on a slightly wider, fractionally heavier rim isn’t going to make any measurable difference to your climbing. Climbing is pure brute power-weight ratio. A bike and rider typically weigh 150 to 200 pounds combined. Saving 8 ounces is about a quarter of a percent.

    Back in the not so distant past DIrt tried to do some more quantative testing in their group tests. The uphill times for the trail bikes, ranging from a 30lb spesh enduro pro to much heavier, much simpler suspension, kona coiler was about a second IIRC. Bikes/tyres tend to feel different, but against a stopwatch there isn’t really one.

    Premier Icon longmover
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    If you are experiencing too much trail chatter with a slightly higher tyre pressure did you try adjusting you suspension to deal with this, assuming the the sag is correct have you had a fiddle with your damping setup?

    Premier Icon happybiker
    Free Member

    Tyre shape plays a part, I have Trail Wides running Bontrager tyres, 2.6 front and 2.4 rear, never thought the front tyre was too wide. On another bike I have 35mm inner front rim and a 3″ Chronicle and it works fine because the Chronicle has such a round profile the edge knobs still work well. Something like a Minion wouldn’t work as well because the edge knobs would be in the wrong place on a narrow rim.

    Premier Icon a11y
    Full Member

    Something like a Minion wouldn’t work as well because the edge knobs would be in the wrong place on a narrow rim.

    Agree with that. Played around with rims and tyres last night after my new 35mm’s arrived and that extra 5mm rim width made a big difference with the same 29×2.6 tyre I was trial-fitting.

    Measured across the widest part of the casing and the tread:

    Shorty 29×2/5WT / 30mm rim: casing 61.0mm, tread 63.7mm

    Vee Flow Snap 29×2.6 / 30mm rim: casing 54.5mm, tread 65.9mm

    Vee Flow Snap 29×2.6 / 35mm rim: casing 60.9mm, tread 68.0mm

    Not happy with the profile of the 2.6 Flow Snaps on my 30mm rim – edge knobs too far onto the sidewalls IMO, also measured up 6.5mm narrower than a Maxxis 2.5WT on the same rim. Same 2.6 tyre onto 35mm rim looks much better and measures up nicely: still a round profile but with more of the tread/knobs in the correct place.Yet to ride them though.

    Flow Snap on 35mm (L) vs 30mm (R):

    Shorty/30mm:

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