HR advice – been called into the office at a moments notice…
All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!Posted 10 years ago
All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!
The point about tribunals is that it allows people to take more money which allows more time to find a better job and end up in an even happier place.
I'd agree it was 'wasted negative energgy' if it was all about getting one back on the ex-employer. Instead it should be about getting what you deserve, getting out with dignity and setting up the best possible future.
I've only been made redundant once and I got it all wrong. Basically (being young and naive) I took the company's advice on how things should go. I wouldn't make that mistake again.
Bushwacked – you are documenting everything aren't you?Posted 10 years ago
Bushwacked, sorry to hear this but am heartened to see you in positive mood. Seems to be lots of good advice and I've not been in this space so can't offer any, only to say good luck and look forward. If there's one thing I've learned, being open to change usually means there's something better out there for you. 🙂Posted 10 years ago
Cheers for the comments – firing up the old PC and getting me CV up to date. Getting some advice from solicitors etc today and may go in to the office tomorrow for round 2 (may not if the weather is nice 😉 )
Joolsburger – YGM
Jedi – Will have a think and anyway you can help I'll let you know. You got any vacancies for puncture gimps or tea bitches??Posted 10 years ago
i will have a think too. atkins needs a crank fitter 🙂 🙂Posted 10 years ago
When i was made redundant earlier this yr, there was 6 or 7 process engineers who were considered. The manager's devised a 'fair' matrix system to grade everyone on and apparently I came out with the lowest score.
It was a joke, as some of the things they had scored me low on, they had previously mentioned to me that I was very good at. When I went through the individual score for each criteria with them, they had no explanation of how they had scored it they way they did.
I think they decided they wanted me and another bloke out and took the 'credit crunch' as a good way to do it.
You and your colleagues must have been scored on a similar matrix. You are entitled to see your scoring and you should also be able to get hold of either the other scores (with names removed) or the 'average' scores so you can see how you sit within that.
You should then be able to get justification for their scoring.
Good Luck with it all!Posted 10 years ago
All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!
Very nicely put,it took me multiple paragraphs to try to say that.
The point about tribunals is that it allows people to take more money
The threat of a tribunal may make that happen, if you actually get to tribunal you're likely to be worse off (unless all they're offering is statutory redundancy) than taking the bung.
The only time I'd consider going to tribunal is if I thought someone I'd left behind was in physical or mental danger (i.e. bullying or harrasment).Posted 10 years ago
I'm not sure they've even been through a scoring process yet!!Posted 10 years ago
I'm sure it's all been covered above but to summarise the key point.
– If your role is one which several people do then irrespective of the specifics (eg customers since you could take them on if their current rep left) they should all be scored on a fair system and the lowest x people are then put at risk of redundancy.
– You are entitled to see your scores and have them explained to show that they are reasonable. I you are not entitled to see other people's score (or the averages, I think)
– On the face of what you've said, it does sound like they're not playing by the book. Record all correspondence including requests for information, summarise meetings afterwards in an email and send it to those involved. Keep a copy. Email them questions about anything you think that they haven't done right and state that you don't accept the decision. Ask lots of questions and make it awkward for them if they're not playing by the rules.
– Get in touch with a solicitor NOW! – several do no-win-no-fee if they feel that you have a good case and this itself is a good measure of whether you have any chance of success. Also, mentioning that you've got a solicitor on board often makes people take your issues seriously and may make all the difference.
– Make sure you appeal the decision if it's made (courts apparently tend to take this into account if you don't).
Or if you're not that fussed about the job and want a quiet life, do as suggested above – take the money and don't worry.
Bushwacked – Member
I'm not sure they've even been through a scoring process yet!!
It seems like they're suggesting that your role is not a common one and therefore they don't have to score you because there's no one to score you against.Posted 10 years ago
On the phone to the solictor now!Posted 10 years ago
Mighty Higs – a tribunal may achieve this result, depending upon the offer on the table. The downside is your employment record will show you were in dispute with this employer, and no matter the circumstances, that's something that will attract special interest when you next go for a job. To make this worth your while I'd think you'd need to be talking about a significant difference. If it's only buttons, I'd be more focused on getting another job.
My brother's an employment lawyer – he warns people about this before taking on their business.Posted 10 years ago
You don't have to actually go to a tribunal, that would be really expensive and stressful (for you and for them).
You just have to act like you're prepared to and let them know you have a strong case. If they have cocked-up then they might pay you handsomely to go away.
Don't know if you said how long you've been there, or if they've put a package on the table yet? We got four weeks pay per year of service (or five for over 40s) when I was last made redundant, which we were very happy with.
Good luck!Posted 10 years ago
Bushwacked you are stillemployed and paid for by the company,so its pointless not going to meetings etc,if you do go to a tribunal,youll just be classed as a trouble maker for future employment,just leave with the experience and training you got,and look for another job.
Sadly a lot of people got made redundant with very litle notice, Woolworths, Threshers etc, and they only got the minimum amount of redundancy paid for by the tax payer.
As for slagging off your workmates,theyre just happy youve gone as opposed to themselves,and dont want to say anything just incase their name goes to the top of the list next time.
When i got made redundant,all my so called workmates of 6 years said they would refuse to carry on my work,within days they had forgotton me,just glad they had not got the push.Posted 10 years ago
Mighty Higs – a tribunal may achieve this result, depending upon the offer on the table. The downside is…
Sorry – my post may appear like I think a tribunal is a good thing. It's not. It's a last resort (and a gamble) but acting as if it could end up in tribunal is a good idea in my view. By that I mean keeping good records and ensuring the process followed is the correct one.Posted 10 years ago
Sorry to hear this news, it's a horrible thing to go through.
This is where you find out that the people who you thought were 'friends' are total up their own _________ and not worth the time of day. One in particular who I had known for years turned out to be a total bas. I felt sure I could rely on him as I knew him as (what I thought) was a personal friend. He simply buried his head in the sand and went with what the completely useless (and also completely wrong!) hr fool said.
It was hard finding out that the people who you thought you were close too were in actual fact spineless, two faced and I was pretty disgusted with them. I wouldn't waste my urine if they were on fire now.
Anyhow, do as already has been said and use your solicitor – mine were brilliant! They gave me a huge amount of confidence.
Mine was a horrible and rediculous situation. Unfortunately I am still there (I was re-instated – they had no choice when faced with the actual facts). However, there isn't much work around at the moment and I'm halfway through my degree now. I'm happy in the respect that they are paying for my degree, my bills are paid and I have a job. funnily enough most of the poeple who turned on me are now redundant! I was one of the first they tried to get rid of – turned out they (along with many companies) were basically looking to get rid of staff by any means which would result in them not having to pay them off. Shocking! But common place.
I infomred them that I have a copy of the 12 page, extremely comprehensive and accurate report, as do they, as does my solicitor. And we have no problem in showing how incompetant, useless, underhand, gutless, etc etc etc they are if we need to.
The look on there faces was priceless when they read through the report. They took me as being a fool expecting no resistance. I took it upon myself to find out why the hell this situation was happening – it was an education to me and well worth it in the end. It's all in this thread here if you want a read.
Funny thing is – they've never come near me since then?…. A shame as I found a new source of employment and I'd now happily be made legally redundant, get a small pay-off, not have to pay uni fees back and go onto better things….
Anyhow, I know it can be difficult but stay positive, get looking for a new job and GET IT RIGHT UP THEM!
And I have to say that without this forum I would have been well and truly strung up! The knowledge, help, advice, good human nature was amazing! It truly restored my faith in people. When I was down in the crap this place really did pull me right out and stick me well up on top. I can't thank any of those who helped enough.
Without it I'd have lost my house and my family and I would be on the streets with nothing. It really was that serious.
Thanks everyone.Posted 10 years ago
To those of you that say " you don't need a union"
If bushwhacked was a member he would have access to a union employed solicitor specialising in employment cases without paying out for it.
And some of the anti union folk claimed that unions were no longer needed as there were laws in place to protect workers rights and employers didn't break them. Yeah right!
I hope bushwacked gets a positive result and if I can help bushwacked please ask – I have some experience of this sort of thing – but not much recent.
If you are a union member when things go pearshaped and your employer acts unfairly then it is a lot easier to go to the union for expert advice rather than having to find a lawyer and so on – and if you are unionised your employer is less likely to try to shaft you anyway.
Glad things worked out OK for you in the end Zedsdead – or sort of OK and hope it does for you as well bushwackedPosted 10 years ago
After my experiences, I gotta agree with TJ. A little help would've been nice, it's quite an isolating experience.Posted 10 years ago
To be honest I think Unions are a good thingPosted 10 years ago
Links to info and professional advice Dont
be fooled that they are not needed.
Bushwacked, I am very sorry you are being put through this but if your post is surplus to requirements thenas employers they surely have the right to terminate your contract of employment. TJ you and your union BS is 1970's discredited practice that brought the country to its knees (not far from where Labour is leaving us again, no surprise there).Posted 10 years ago
Faux by faux – you have rights as a worker and a union helps you exercise them.
If bushwacked was in a union he could get asadvice and support withut hassle.Posted 10 years ago
I think you are somewhat missing the point some us are trying to make. Sometimes it isn't worth putting up a hige struggle even if you are right. Yes a union may well provide good support but maybe just maybe even if Bushwacked 'wins' he could find himself in a worse position. I know a number of people who have actually been happier when they've been finally told they are redundant after being totally freaked out by not knowing. It affects people in different ways, sometimes moving on quickly and quietly is the healthiest option and gives the individual the best outcome.
I'll admit I'm not very pro-union, too many little politicians with their noses in the trough without actually considering the impact of their actions. However in these sort of situations I do believe unions have a useful role to play, may just not be the best answer, only Bushwacked can decide that.Posted 10 years ago
Stumpy – no I accept that point – infact I suggested that the best outcome now would be to negotiate the best deal – possibly using th threat of a tribunal to get one. Thats what I did when I was being treated in a similar unfair mannerPosted 10 years ago
Kind of agree with TJ, flex your muscles and show you will not be a pushover but don't get bent out of shape over it. A mate of mine did this and went the full course which took nearly a year, he ended up with a 6 figure payoff but was on 'happy tablets' towards the end.Posted 10 years ago
Really sorry to read of your situation. I know others including myself who've been in a similar situation and it's very hard. Human Remains (not resources) are there to support policy, not people. Suggest that constructive dismissal could be hard to prove without a clear portfolio of evidence – the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not them to disprove. If you are the only person in the process then unfair selection criteria is much more likely for you – and a robust legal response often drives towards a compromise agreement in order to reduce costs. They need to provide a fair an open process, which they haven't – they also expect you to roll over and die quietly. Do not. Dig in and keep at them – good luck and remember that it's only business for them. Hope your lawyer is a help to you – and it's good to see the STW forum supporting you.Posted 10 years ago
Chin up mate.Posted 10 years ago
Glencampbell it's unfair dismissal not constructive dismissal that Bushwacked is being threatened with. Strangely in 20 odd years in a union (TGWU) I never met one of these political leaders at a local level.Posted 10 years ago
Cheers for the comments.
Situation is I've pushed back the next meeting to next Wednesday as I still have a lot of investigation to do especially talking to solicitors.
Bascially I'm going down the route that the selection pool is unfair as my team of 5 are all contracted doing the same role.
Also my role is not disappearing, one of my colleagues is going to be taking it on – meaning its not being made redundant which in my eyes means they should be in the pool also as I am more than competent than most of them.
I've accepted that my days at my company are numbered so I've accepted that and have started a big push to source alternative employment as soon as possible.
I'm keeping my spirits high but my wife is taking it really badly and she has been in tears saying its ruining our Xmas and pointing out after 5 years we were just starting back on the road of financial stability. BIG fight last night over nothing ended in her breaking down in front of me. Horrible to watch!!! She's taken the day off today as she is just too stressed out and hasn't slept all night.
SO bascially lots of positive action and attitude from me. I'm going so why fight it (other than to get more money from them for their incompetance and lack of respect for their employees)
On the subject of tribunals and unions, I've never been a great one for Unions (used to work for Unipart and heard many a story of how the unions ruined British Leyland back in the day). But I can see why they have their place. I may go down the tribunal route but only if things get really bad and any appeal doesn't work out.
They're bastards but that's their problem not mine 🙂Posted 10 years ago
you are strong dude. be strong for your wife and it will all work out.Posted 10 years ago
if i can help as i said ,just holla! and i'm there
Might need to ride sometime and enjoy a bit of distraction 😀Posted 10 years ago
Not read the whole post but sounds as though you are having a bit of grief at work (or soon to be not work).
It may seem like the end of the world at the moment, but keep a cool head, think positive and you’ll be fine. – I thought I was going to lose everything last year when my company went into liquidation, but looking back now it was the best thing ever.
If you need a trip up north for a bit of riding to clear your head, just let me know. My door is always open
marcusPosted 10 years ago
barny, just say when bro!Posted 10 years ago
Marcus – Didn't know about your business – sorry to hear that! We had to dissolve Bry's this year and that was tough to do but glad we did it.
Trip up north might be fun – I'll keep you posted. You can take me to that dodgy pub again! 🙂Posted 10 years ago
Well you can always let your hair down at the jbm tonight… 😀Posted 10 years ago
They're making you redundant, accept it and concentrate on:
a. getting as much money as possible
b. another job
I was laid off last year (my 7th time), totally unexpected. But when I walked into the office to my boss and the Grim Reaper (HR Director), I knew…
So I let my boss read out the 'script', then turned to HR and asked "how much?" – never even spoke to my boss, not then and not since.
I then went and sat down with the HR Director to work out the deal – they wanted me out asap – I was happy to go.
1st time – 1 month gross
2nd time – 3 months net
3rd time – 3 months gross
4th time – 1 month net
5th time – 3 months gross, keep company car for 3 months, relocation due to been abroad
6th time – 6 months gross
7th time – 3 months net and 3 months gross, 1 years bonus, 3 months car allowance, 3 months health etc
While financial I've always done well (must be the photos' I keep – or more likely my photographic memory of dodgy dealings…), unfortunately this is not a time to be laid off, especially if you are quite senior…Posted 10 years ago
Solicitor has given me some good news – now to get as much money as possible!!!Posted 10 years ago
Sorry for late entry to this one.
I was made redundant 2 years ago and I found that once I got over the shock of being told, and was able to assimilate the information and do some research around the subject, I could get more in control and ended up with an acceptable outcome.
sounds like you are on the way with that – good luck with how it goes.
At the time, I was dredding what I would do next, and now have a complete life change doing something I love.Posted 10 years ago
At least there is the prospect of getting some money.
My company was put into administration with the intention of selling as a going concern. No sale so company folded. Everyone made redundant. Only received statutory from the government which was grossly less than my contract stated. I'm now a creditor of the Co. (they owe me money under the contract I held with them). Unfortunately I'm at the back of a long queue.
I'm fortunate to have some savings that keeps me going.
This was in May and I still haven't got back into what I was doing (Quality & Compliance Management). Done bits of casual work and nearly completed a course that will add to my CV but feeling increasingly anxious about getting back into my career. Attended numerous interviews with results ranging from down to the last two, to the post being pulled at the last minute.
The job market is dire at the moment (especially in the engineering/manufacturing sector).
Get as much as you can from them, then throw yourself into getting another job. Best of luck with it all.
BTW, Unipart (rail) were one of our major customers who weren't paying on time, pulling contracts and orders, and knackering cash flow. Accelerating the demise of the Co. B@st@rds! 😆Posted 10 years ago
Bushwacked….. most household insurance policies have legal costs cover. Worth investigating if this is worth activating. I missed that one when it happened to me. For that reason I made choices based on financial considerations rather than what was necessarily right for me.
Worth a look at the policy at the very least.
Give your Mrs a hug from the STW massif on my behalf will yer? Similar experience to mine there, and as its transpired once the initial shock has passed mine has been a tower of strength over the subsequent years, all through me having bits falling off me, through to now when I at starting to feel OK for the first time in a long time. (Incidentally that is also why you must seek your own form of closure to this).
Positive vibes in bucket loads coming your way.Posted 10 years ago
Just like to say that these things can end up working in your favour. I was in a similar situation Nov 09 and found that my manager was basically pushing through constructive dismissal of me due to a personality clash. He ended up going behind my back and sabotaging my work (Which i had proof). He even intentionally kicked off with me the day before my holidays so that he could spoil them for me. In the end i decided to jump ship as the acid stomach and sleepless nights were affecting my homelife. I had an interview for a job i had craved for years and you wont believe the next few events.
1) 1pm – Call from wife to tell me the people i had an interview had been on the phone and wanted an urgent call
2) 1.20pm – Had 5mins time so called them to which they said they wanted to offer me the job
3) 2pm Walked back into office and was told to go into managers office. Was confronted by HR manager
4) Handed a letter saying i was redundant.
5) I could tell that she was amazed at my response. I took the letter. Explained i would be keeping the company car for the period of my notice and if that was all i would happily never see her ever again. All done with a calm expression on my face.
6) Walked out and drove off without a wrod to the backstabbing shites i worked with
7) Got home and said to the wife "I have some bad news & some good news" "which do you want first?"
I havent looked back. Hitting targets and at the sales appraisel this week i was described as this years success story and handed confirmation that i would be getting all my bonuses for the year.
Now i had spoken to TJ about where i stood and i had taken legal advice too. What they did was totally against all the rules and i would have had a very good case for taking them to task. In the end i just decided that the best thing for me and my family was to move on. Sometimes lingering in the past is more harmfull than using the enegy to move on.Posted 10 years ago
Oh and i took great pleasure in the bosses face when i handed him my company car back. It had been used for all my biking trips and hadnt had so much as a drop of care given in that time. It was almost bone dry on fuel as well. He commented that it was very dirty. I just said that i had been busy working for their biggest rivals and didnt want to get my new company car dirty so used this. I then walked off with a smile on my face. Oh and a lot of this years suuccess has been at their expense too 😉Posted 10 years ago
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