How to fix UK broken political system

The last thing we need is broadly representative administrations – am I right?

It’s not oldies fault that the kids don’t turn up to vote. Seem’s perverse to punish them

But if a countries policies are heavily skewed towards the group that have all the wealth, where’s the incentive for them (youngsters) to vote? That’s what we’ve manged to achieve isn’t it? This demographic blip that got handed the golden ticket post-war, and continue to hold onto it all (accidently in most cases) Because we can’t really afford to knock the house prices down and we’re not building any more (to keep the value of the stock we have artificially high) and we need to find a way to pay their pensions (which I don’t begrudge BTW) but the population is falling, we’ve skewed our economy towards finance, and services, and the fear of all that (can’t get a job, can’t get on the housing ladder, immigration) caused many of the elderly to vote Brexit – the worse thing they could’ve done. The young are being failed, and as @dazh points out (uncomfortably it seems ) Politics is about the future.

Changing the way MP are voted to the big building in the middle of town isn’t going to change any of that.

Closing Blair’s devolved parliaments would be a quick fix, more layers of expensive big state bureaucracy, giving power to authoritarian nationalist socialist parties like the SNP was one of the biggest missteps of the last few decades

The thing with FPTP, in the UK, is that demographic spread is key. It’s not just that our population is aging, it’s also about where people live (and can afford to live). Basically, it favours older voters at the expense of younger voters. So dropping the voting age isn’t the main thing that needs doing (but do it anyway)… what we need is proportional result based on votes… so that living in the wrong place doesn’t mean your vote becomes a meaningless gesture. Young people are disenfranchised by the voting system… yet we expect them to go and cast their meaningless votes anyway for some reason… despite it not effecting the result in their seat. Make their votes count towards who gets to form a government and speak/vote in parliament and they’ll vote.

At this next election, millions of young people will vote Green, knowing full well it’ll make no difference to the number of green MPs (it’ll likely be zero or one, and has nothing to do with their vote).

Millions more will vote Labour in city seats where the vote will be weighed… and their seat will return 1 Labour MP even if they and thousands of their friends go to the pub instead.

Make every vote count… and… every vote will count… so every vote feels more important.

Throw away the votes of millions of young people, and then chastise those that see exactly what is happening and choose not to get involved… well… why the surprise?

How does removing a group of the populations right to vote on any basis lead to a country becoming more democratic?

Because it redistributes power from groups who disproportionately wield it in their own interests (or who don’t need it at all), to those who it doesn’t serve and who do need it. A vote is completely meaningless if it doesn’t provide the power to change society. Democracy isn’t about giving people equal votes, it’s about distributing executive power in a way where it will be exercised in the interests of the whole of society.

And the way to give young people agency in the voting process is to let them vote, and ensure their votes result in representation.

Or get rid of representation altogether and give young people a direct say in policy. We have the technology and people have shown many times they are willing to engage with the issues, so lets get rid of the middlemen who seem so prone to corrupting influences and conflicts of interests.

First past the post for MPs and then proportional representation for a reformed second house (Lords).  Parties would be able to select members based on the proportion of vote. You would normally have a scenario where by a party could win a majority of MPs and form a government, but not have over 50% of the popular vote and not control the second house.

Or get rid of representation altogether and give young people a direct say in policy. We have the technology and people have shown many times they are willing to engage with the issues, so lets get rid of the middlemen who seem so prone to corrupting influences and conflicts of interests.

I have been saying this for years, since it became easily possible via internet/phone app.

Log on, see things you can have a say on and have say on them.  Pure democracy.  I would rather have a direct say that rely on my **** of a tory MP who I have never voted for to speak on my behalf.

Waits for the cries of “People won’t understand what they are voting for” but I would rather take someone who doesn’t fully understand it over a tory MPs motives.

It’s not a matter of “people don’t understand” so much as people are guided by propaganda, misinformation and lies.

The ruling party can easily manipulate such votes, not just by media campaigns but by the actually voting process, give an option between the one they want you to vote for, one totally unacceptable choice and one that will make you worse off.

ie, say they gave 3 options to increase funding the NHS

1, Increase the basic rate of tax by 1% to be spent on the NHS

2, Save an equivalent amount of money from the current budget wasted, that could be spent on front line services

3, Completely overhaul the system and replace it with private insurance.

All the options are a bit shit really, don’t address the problems and solutions to government spending, but the politicians can then absolve themselves from responsibility as “the people” made the choice.

It is just the same problems we already have with false choices, manipulation and will create more disenfranchisement, just played out more frequently.

I agree with @dazh I don’t see any govt that has PR in Europe doing so much better than the system the UK operates currently, that makes the change unquestionably better other than a personal belief that it would

We have had a succession if extreme racist right wing governments not seen in any other country.  PR stops extremism

Dazh.  You reallyneed to look at what has happened in Scotland since devolution.   Once you have a little understanding then you can see how PR improves democratic engagement and reduces extemism

You need the understanding first tho

We have had a succession if extreme racist right wing governments not seen in any other country.

No we haven’t. We’ve had right wing governments who have become increasingly hawkish on immigration. The extreme rightwing racists are in UKIP/reform/BNP etc and they have been denied power by FPTP. If we had PR then UKIP/Reform would have 50-100 MPs and probably would’ve been in coalition with the tories with Nigel Farage as home secretary. PR would have massively enabled the extremists in the UK rather than blocking them.

Poland had a rather extreme government till recently, as does Hungary and Italy. Slovakia has just elected a pro Putin populist.

This is not  problem with just the UK, and PR is not an automatic fix, it can be part of the solution but it isn’t the major issue.

Yup.  Understanding of reality needed.  Our tory givernment gas been to the right if all those mentioned.

How come no ukip in scotland?

Tories have become ukip because of fptp

We have had a succession if extreme racist right wing governments not seen in any other country.  PR stops extremism

But isn’t our dull old FPTP just about to put a stop to it? Plus; Hungry is RP, Poland is RP, Turkey is RP. It’s not infallible

How come no ukip in scotland?

Probably because the nationalist are already in charge? Besides everyone knows UKIP is an English nationalist movement rather than anything to do with the UK. Ukip being popular in Scotland would be a bit like Le Pen standing candidates in English elections.

Nickc

14 years of a tory government as or more extreme than those mentioned elected on a minority of the vote.  Impossible under PR.  Under PR we wouls have had social democratic governments not extreme right wing ones

Dazh.  Please learn a bit about Scottish democracy .

Under PR we wouls have had social democratic governments not extreme right wing ones

Extreme right wing governments? Which ones?

David Cameron 1 – Solidly centre-right trendy liberal with a solid dose of lib-dem bedwetting. Austerity opportunist.

David Cameron 2 – Same as previous but without the lib-dem ball and chain. Even then he still campaigned to stay in the EU!

Theresa May – Centrist anti-austerity matriarch who liked to sound hard about immigration while doing bugger all about it.

Boris Johnson – Circus act crowd pleaser and secret MMTer. More of a gameshow host than a politician (there’s a reason he likes Zelensky so much!)

Liz Truss – Ok you’ve got me here, but she wasn’t exactly successful was she?!

Rishi Sunak – Liberal tech-bro billionaire. Architect of the single largest socialist experiment ever seen in modern UK history (which turned out to be very effective!).

So again, which one of these (barring the obvious failure) were ‘extreme right wing’?

14 years of a tory government as or more extreme than those mentioned

You seriously think that Johnson’s or May’s or Sunak’s administration are worse than Erdogan? Orban? Or the Law and Justice party? You need to give your head a wobble.

All of them.  Every one was racist anti eu hard right.  You have been boiled like a frog ie the gradual creep to the right has not been seen.  Cameron took the tories out of the centre right grouping in the EU and put it in the far right grouping.

All of those governments sit along side the hard right of hungary and poland etc or to the right of them.

Very similar Nickc.  Hard right racist anti democratic anti eu with very simikar policies .

None of those took the country out of the eu.  Dont believe the uk propaganda

All of those governments sit along side the hard right of hungary and poland etc or to the right of them.

Don’t be daft. They’re all pinko pacifist hippies compared to Orban et al. David Cameron brought in gay marraige! Something Tony Blair never saw fit to do (probably on account of his catholic leanings). 🤷‍♂️

It shows how successful the tory capture of media is that you believe this

Very similar Nickc.  Hard right racist anti democratic anti eu with very simikar policies .

But even if that’s true (which I think is wildly off the mark) FPTP is still going to rid us of our “extreme” govt whilst in the meantime, Erdogan isn’t going anywhere and neither is Orban, and both have now captured the telly, and other broadcast media and are busy locking up opposition candidates or banning thier parties. The PiS Party (I’m not making that up) were forced out only by the slimmest of margins. So if PR is supposed to avoid extreme govts, they’re not doing any better than FPTP.

But none of that addresses the wealth imbalance we’ve created.

TJ I don’t need any encouragement to hate the tories, but I’m not going to pretend they’re worse than they actually are just to fit a charicature. I know what you’re bothered about, you still haven’t gotten over brexit and hold a grudge. That’s fine, but please don’t let it cloud your judgement, it’s neither useful or healthy. No UK prime minister has come anywhere close to being as bad as some others who have risen to power in supposedly enlightened western democracies. Truss had potential but even the supposedly cut-throat and self-interested establishment couldn’t stomach her radicalism. We’ve actually been prett lucky in this country on the avoiding extremists front. Less lucky on the competence front I agree, but better to have incompetent liberals than competent authoritarians.

@dazh I agree. I am no fan of the Tory psrty but they are along way from being extreme right wing. Right wind yes, bit hardly extreme. Sure there are some would like the party to be more right wing, Moggy please step forward, or the nutter who has just decided to join reform so he can loose the general election

As others say, if you think the tories of the last 14 years are hard right wingers, then you’re political compass needs a check 🤣

As DazH stated, most of it’s been covered by a soft right leader in Cameron, Theresa May was so against Brexit it cost her the job, same with Cameron, Johnson just wanted to be PM, he’d be left of Corbyn if he thought it would get him what he wanted.

As for Scotland being tory or UKIP free, yesterday i watched a football match where i saw more union jacks and rule britannia style singing than the last night of the proms!

Rangers support does not equal Scotland

It shows how successful the tory capture of media is that you believe this

Always interesting talking to friends who have moved out of Britain and still follow what’s happening here via media in their own country. It doesn’t look good to them, at all.

Rangers support does not equal Scotland

Try selling the SFA and the SPFL that!

“Try selling the SFA and the SPFL that!” I have in a way.
I havent attended a game for about 12yrs, and havent been a regular attendee for 30+ years. I can out myself as a Jungle Jim
Please Note Celtic support also does not equal Scotland

like it or not, the UK has a large right wing population, the tories are their party of choice, so you need a strong opposition, no matter who the sitting government is.

Either reduce voting age to 16 or change the law so that you’re not classed as an adult until you’re 18. 

Cap the voting for those that are retired /not economically active….. i.e. Old gits.

Always interesting talking to friends who have moved out of Britain and still follow what’s happening here via media in their own country. It doesn’t look good to them, at all

A good proportion of those when given a vote from overseas vote Tory to stick the boot in even further. At least those I have spoken to, they thrive on it (puts a great big smile on their faces) and can’t wait.

I’ve often wondered what would be the straw that snaps the camels back. It’s the only thing UK politicians have proven to be any good at, being unpopular enough without inciting mass civil disobedience.

I reckon it would be ill-advised to go after the working class foreign holiday. The only respite from this grey miserable shithole full of small-minded interfering ****! Make flights too expensive (it’s bad for the environment after all) and gentrify the British holiday with the help of the toady small to medium sized businessmen. No more Benidorm or Bodrum, say hello to a luxury caravan priced for middleclass families in Ingoldmels 😀

Don’t worry about housing when your kids can live in a converted shipping container, it’s the fewture, they’ve shown us it’s going to be great.

David Cameron brought in gay marraige! Something Tony Blair never saw fit to do (probably on account of his catholic leanings). 🤷‍♂️

Listened to a podcast the other day about this topic…. It wasn’t that Cameron was massively pro gay and Blair wasn’t, but that the public was ready…. Blair had laid the foundations that meant Cameron could introduce it.

And a majority of the Conservatives voted against it… the other parties made it happen.

For 32 years of my voting life i have lived in Sunaks constituency, my vote for Labour has been meaningless. I would have to move to make a difference. In practical terms democracy is a myth for many people.

I’ve lived in three constituencies as an adult. I’ve voted in every general election.
I’ve voted for every major English political party at least once.
I have never voted for the MP who won.
I don’t think this means my vote was irrelevant, or that the process is undemocratic.
if you voted for someone who won in a landslide, would you feel more involved?

Been voting since since 1983, mostly for losing SNP candidates never really felt much different when I voted for winning candidates. Except in 2015 when I felt some relief as my area voted SNP for the first time, and in 1997 when I voted for Dennis Canavan the Labour candidate where I then lived as I admired him and shared many of his opinions

I have always lived in safe constituencies.   My vote has been irrelevant.   Under fptp elections are decided by a couple of hundred thousand voters in around 50 constituencies.

Those of you who do not understand how dar right the uk tiries are remember that cameron took them out of the European centre right grouping into the far right grouping and could you please tell me one policy from the hungsrian or polish far right governments that are not tory policiy

Scaoegoating minorities   tick.  Impovrishing the poor   tick.  Anti unions tick.  Stuffing the media with tbeir supporters tick

Its not me who has lost my pitical compass.  Its those who do not understand how far right the tories are.  I know if nothing that the hard right polish or Hungarian governments have done that the tories have not

There’s no way the Tories are hard right. Being anti Europe (which is different from being anti immigration) isn’t even a particularly left- or right-wing policy.

If a far right party was in power for 20 years we would look a lot more like america than we currently do, much lower taxes, far more privatized industries, much smaller spend. As it is, we don’t look particularly different from when the mid-left labour left (taxes and spending are higher as a proportion of GDP for one thing), and I don’t think we’ll look much different in 5 years when labour have had a stab at things.

It isn’t FPTP that is going to get rid of the tories (on current forecasts). It’s the collapse in their vote share. They’d never have had such a landslide victory in the first place were it not for FPTP. We’d have been largely governed by a series of centre-left coalitions, in line with the wishes of the major of the electorate, if the system was reasonably representative. It doesn’t even need to be perfect, just not completely horrible.