How to fix UK broken political system

I will vote against any party that proposes the Scottish system. I want people to be able to vote for each candidate, rather than have unelected party loyalists appointed by government.

You get to vote for a candidate in Scotland. There is no system where you get to vote for every candidate. Having a directly elected representive (or multiple representatives) for your seat/area can still be kept with a move to a more proportional system.

And we have people in government in the UK chosen by the PM and not directly elected, eg Cameron.

How will you run PR? All of the UK votes, and the results are divided up? By region? How are you defining them? If it’s by nation, you’ve got Cornwall, London and Newcastle sharing candidates. And voting for a party list means you give up any chance to vote out a particular candidate.

Personally I’d go for FPTP for the first chamber, and PR for the second. PR would be based on regions of equal population. But even then you run the risk that the second chamber is basically a sinecure for parties to send their second-rate or otherwise unelectable politicians.

Party politcis aside I cannot abide the situation whereby my MP is also a minister. How the hell can he concentrate on putting my constituency first when he is buggering about with transport.?

All ministers must have considerable commercial experience with their ministry. Defence must be ex forcers, health must be ex medic etc.  Better still have professional ministers (ie the civil service) not amateurs.

The big thing won’t ever be fixed. The population is self centred and to expect other wise is stupid at best. The so called working classes are the most right wing until their perks are threatened and the so called upper classes are the same.The so called lefties are the middle classes as seen here in STW land. No idea how everyone else thinks.

Reducing the voting age is wrong. Young people cannot vote without experience. Ideology helps nothing. Voting should be mandatory but equally a priviledge. Got a criminal record? No vote.

Go and read Nevil Shute’s “In the wet”.  There exist up to seven votes. You get a basic, one for staying in work, one for higher education, one for raising a family etc. The seventh vote is in effect a knighthood.

MPs should be forced to have some dignity and not slag each other off as a matter of principle. They should also be expected to live by their principles.  We have the tech to have more votes about things which would enable us to regionalise. I care not a stuff about London or the hard up North. Let politics be more regional and get rid of stupid new fangeled ideas.

Would PR mean that a city would have more influence than a rural area? If so, crap idea.

Ultimately of course any one in politics has to be suspect. If they want to do that I have no faith in them. Maybe our leaders should be drawn by lot as a form of national service.

And we have people in government in the UK chosen by the PM and not directly elected, eg Cameron.

He has no constituents though, he is basically a figurehead for what he’s doing, and in all fairness, that isn’t a bad thing as he has a reputation on the world stage.

So many wrong-headed ideas here, and tbf some good ones.

The idea of an MP Hotel in London is a terrible one. You do not want 650 MPs cooped up in the same building, on their own, away from their families. That’s a recipe for absolute degeneracy and blackmail.

PMs already can appoint whichever MP (or peer) they want to be a minister. They don’t pick MPs from other parties to be ministers because they believe fundamentally different things about how the country should be run, and because it would be impossible to have collective responsibility.

It would be weird to demand ministers must have “commercial experience” in their portfolio. Aside from the fact you’d be limiting the talent pool, that’s a recipe for industry capture of government.

“It’s also I think difficult to visualize the political landscape post a PR based general election when we are so used to our FPTP vision” – not if you’re Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or a Londoner!

All political parties to be publicly funded no fund raising activities or donations permitted.
The second house to be composed entirely of elected members.

That’s a recipe for absolute degeneracy and blackmail.

Good point aside from the minor detail of it being nonsense. At least in one place a)we would be paying less for the degeneracy and b)if anything there would be less chance of blackmail since they would all know who was shagging who vs it happening in a random flat instead.

“It’s also I think difficult to visualize the political landscape post a PR based general election when we are so used to our FPTP vision” – not if you’re Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or a Londoner!

That doesnt really help translate it to the UK level. All of the ones you list still have fptp as a major factor at that level.

It is unclear what the outcome would be.

Government (along with the law) needs to get away from the adversarial approach. Standing up shouting and scoring cheap points is childish. Proportional representation and an acceptance that coalition will become the norm seems the only way to provide that and, along with it, some semblance of long term planning.

“That doesnt really help translate it to the UK level.”

Sure, it does. aside from the rest of England already being on PR, how much closer could you get than the UK capital and ¾ of the UK nations being on PR? And don’t forget that European elections across the UK were already run on PR.

“Government (along with the law) needs to get away from the adversarial approach. Standing up shouting and scoring cheap points is childish.”

That’s a tiny sliver of the political process.

how much closer could you get than the UK capital and ¾ of the UK nations being on PR

In all those cases the power is limited to a greater or lesser degree and the ultimate power lies with PR. Hence whilst you can make some guesses it is just that.

And don’t forget that European elections across the UK were already run on PR.

Farage

7 for 0.

vs

6 for 5

See the problem now?

How about a parliament building that can accommodate all the MPs.

All MPs must attend parliament when it sits and must cast a vote on all policies.

I also thought a roving parliament whilst West Minister is being done up would be good, it’d be much cheaper for the tax payer if the parliament is in Newcastle or Liverpool or Dundee or Cardiff or Bradford etc, for a year or two. Would also allow more local people to attend parliament, to witness UK politics first  hand.

[How will you run PR?]

Well you could do worse than look at how it works in Europe….many democracies in Europe do this successfully, and it clearly prevents outcomes that the wider population don’t agree with – gert willders in the Netherlands as an example….

And interesting that the system in Germany was designed in large part by British/allied lawyers post-war who wanted a system that wouldn’t allow totalitarianism to have a chance to rise again. Broadly successful…

I live in a constituency where, because of fptp, my vote has effectively been meaningless for the 22 years I’ve been here. And I suspect that applies to many of us on here. If we want the UK body politic to reflect the broad population rather entrenched interest groups, then PR makes sense

I think it was mentioned up-thread, but the only European states using fptp are the UK and Belarus……..

Why do some countries use PR while others don’t? How electoral system trends spread across European democracies

As usual, most suggestions are left biased, which is one of the reasons nothing ever happens, like it or not, the UK has a large right wing population, the tories are their party of choice, so you need a strong opposition, no matter who the sitting government is.

Proportional Representation sounds great, but has just as many negatives as it has positives, for every green MP you’d get, you’ll get a Nigel Farage.

I don’t think you understand how PR actually works.  I’d say that while UK politics has drifted right, the electorate when polled comes out pretty central.  But that isn’t catered for by FPTP as the first and most important hurdle to clear is the local party, so you need to spout some pretty extreme nonsense on either side to get past those, but those then become the policies of government by default.

That why you get this now – ‘Flip side is you’re allowing the fringe lunatics to set up their own parties and gain some power’. 

In most implementations the real fringe don’t get across the hurdle of 3% or whatever of the national vote to actually get anywhere.

Having Farage in operation in the commons would probably reveal how vile he is.  He was on show in the Euro Parliament for a long time, and didn’t cover himself in glory with his circus tricks

Re. ‘I want more voting on big things like whether we go to war with a country.’ Yes , that ends well.  Brexit?  How do you fancy that working weill after some terrorist outrage and someone proposes banning mosques?

 

On a lighter note, all MP’s ,when being interviewed, should be wired up to an electrocution machine. When they can’t answer a bloody simple yes / no question they get a low level shock. The further they pivot ( thanks Matt Hancock )from the question , the level of intensity increases until they do answer it !!

Some of you folks need to read up on pr systems.   There are many systems each with positives and negatives.

The beauty of pr tho is every vote counts.

Ypu can have open or closed lists.  You can make it regional or national.   You can have hybrid systems.

I like the system used in Scotland.   You still have a constituency link and its reasonably good on proportionality.

Note despite the pr system in Scotland no ukip or other hard right has been elected to Holyrood and we have had single issue msps.  Proper socialists and a good number of greens

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_constituencies_and_electoral_regions

All political parties to be publicly funded no fund raising activities or donations permitted.

Agree.  Anyone can start a political party (as long as they pass whatever requirements are required) and then that party gets an amount of money which his exactly the same amount of money Labour or Conservatives or anyone else gets.

The beauty of pr tho is every vote counts.

Ypu can have open or closed lists.  You can make it regional or national.   You can have hybrid systems.

I honestly don’t get the reticence for PR with it being something where nothing would get done, when theres a large number of working real world examples.

The politician is just a front facing part of the organisation. The decision making is all done in the background by economists, business leaders etc

In fact I’d bet that any of the policy makers / influencers work for which ever colour is in office

Yes idealistically you would want politicians to be vocational but why would they? For <£100k a year and take all the abuse they get

Anyone can start a political party (as long as they pass whatever requirements are required) and then that party gets an amount of money

That would seem a dream for scammers unless you change the requirements at which point its whether that is corrupting democracy.

I would stick all the big donors (say 5k and above) into a shared pot. I mean they are doing it for the country, right?

Party politcis aside I cannot abide the situation whereby my MP is also a minister. How the hell can he concentrate on putting my constituency first when he is buggering about with transport.?

It’s all about delegation, appoint a few SPADs and get your spouse and maybe the kids in the payroll if possible.

That would seem a dream for scammers

Nope, see my point about passing whatever requirements.  What are the requirement today to have an official political party.  Don’t ask me but then it is just an idea I put on an MTB forum and won’t be implementing it so won’t be wasting time on any detail but would seem a much fairer way of a)allowing parties to form and b) have the same money available for election campaigns and other stuff.

Proportional Representation sounds great, but has just as many negatives as it has positives, for every green MP you’d get, you’ll get a Nigel Farage.

If that is who a contituency chooses then that’s democratic. We can choose not to visit or contract with that constituency but not gainsay them their deomcratic choice.

it can also stop any progression.

Having seen the “progress” we have been subjected to and are currently experiencing I’m not currently seeing a downside.

If one chooses the social media route for expounding your views as an elected representative one is not permitted to block contituents on the platform. The elected person is there at our behest and works for us.

They don’t pick MPs from other parties to be ministers because they believe fundamentally different things about how the country should be run, and because it would be impossible to have collective responsibility.

Under PR this is a normal state of affairs and they seem to manage. The minister needs to present a compelling case in a mixed party cabinet to get something done not just have the other cabinet members nod it through because “party first”. Frankly some stasis in decision making is a good thing as too much change can be unsettling. The constant changing of ministerial personnel has a detrimental effect on stability for things like health and transport where projects can take years to complete and ministers can change 2 or 3 times a year.

Don’t see why people are so scared of the prospect of Farage getting a seat. We already have a bunch of absolute roasters in the house of commons. It might have kept him off prime time telly if he’d had a minor job to do as an ineffective backbencher. The idea that it’s better to have a landslide (of any political persuasion) on the basis of perhaps 13 million votes out of a country of 70 million is ridiculous IMO, it’s an utterly backward system and there’s good reason that there’s a bare handful of countries worldwide that have followed our example (and none that are particularly enviable).

It’ll never change, because most people don’t like to think too hard and the vested interests that hold power don’t want to lose their grip.

If you are relying on the electoral system to keep people you don’t like out of parliament then you need to up your game.

What might be a good idea is that the general public didn’t throw their teddies out of the pram so much. Once something is voted on and “wins” it is a go. No whinging or wanting best of three.

Hitler would agree.

[ no apologies for invoking Godwin at this stage ]

Once something is voted on and “wins” it is a go. No whinging or wanting best of three.

That worked so well with Brexit didn’t it…

Actually, I’d add that one into the mix. No more referendums or at least a rule that a referendum is basically a “sense check” of how the public feels on an issue and is totally non-binding. The general public is, by and large, too stupid to be allowed a say on important matters.

I think the pressures on democracy are across the world, not just the UK. Here in Germany it is the same, not as far gone as the UK but very much on the same path. So while I support proportional representation, it isn’t the solution to the core problem.

IMO the biggest problem is 40 years of neoliberalism has created such financial disparity that the mega wealthy have ownership of politics and the media message, and they use that power to further rig the system in their favour, very effectively bypassing democracy.

The solution is to change political funding to stop these high wealth individuals and corporations having such a massive influence, however seeing as the people with the power to change it, are the people taking the money to do the bidding of the rich, I don’t know how we can have change without a revolution.

Yea, the system isn’t broken – it’s operating exactly as intended.

Bringing in PR now would be utterly mental. We’ve allowed inequality and injustice get to the point where large numbers of voters are turning to two-bit fascist populists for ‘solutions’ and now some want to bring in an electoral system which will hand them power???

You fights fascists by denying them a voice and blocking them from acquiring power, not by polite argument and handing them 50-100 seats in parliament. 🙄

A good start would be to stop this tribal left vs right squabbling. It’s us vs the political elite and those that fund them. Does anyone really feel represented right now? The right are disenfranchised with the tories who are on track to be annihilated and rightly so. Judging from talk on here and elsewhere the left are already disenfranchised and labour haven’t even got into power yet.

My possibly foolish hope is that enough people realise that we’re all getting screwed no matter who you vote for and that both main parties are completely destroyed.

IMO the biggest problem is 40 years of neoliberalism has created such financial disparity that the mega wealthy have ownership of politics and the media message, and they use that power to further rig the system in their favour, very effectively bypassing democracy

I would argue about some of the wording and timescale but in a nutshell this is what we are stuck with. All we get is a corporate vision of what the world should be, **** the consequences. A two-tier system of order, where poorer/normal people are made to jump through endless hoops and dealt with in an increasingly brutal fashion. Sadly this is old ground retrodden with a modern surveillance lead twist. Of course and most importantly, money is made mostly unhindered by those in positions of power. Any kind of power is kept away from the disgusting legacy plebs (who are left arguing the toss over trivial matters), unless they are puppets, brutalising and/or stitching up their own.

The biggest change I’ve noticed is the amount of public money unashamedly handed over to private sector businesses who aggressively covet it. How certain industries have intertwined themselves with politicians and the operation of government to the point where they are almost beyond criticism, can dictate policy/legislation and are given carte blanche to cover up any kind of wrong doing. Even when caught red-handed are allowed to carry on pretty much business as usual.

We’re not gonna make it, are we? Humans I mean.

John Connor T2

Bringing in PR now would be utterly mental. We’ve allowed inequality and injustice get to the point where large numbers of voters are turning to two-bit fascist populists for ‘solutions’ and now some want to bring in an electoral system which will hand them power???

Other way round.   Pr denies them power by being representative.   We would not have tory majorities.  I suggest you look into how pr works.  Its the morm worldwide.

No 2 bit fascists in Scotland under pr.  Ukip have never had a seat.

PR is essential to the future prosperity of the UK and the best way to stop extremism

People voting in there own interests would be a good start.

My possibly foolish hope is that enough people realise that we’re all getting screwed no matter who you vote for and that both main parties are completely destroyed.

PR is one way that could help with that.  See my Green vote that gets nowhere, with PR there could be 25 Green MPs so that is 25 less for the main parties and also gives me a feeling that my vote was actually worthwhile.  More other options for people to vote for and less and less votes for the two main parties until there are not the two main parties anymore.

People voting in there own interests would be a good start.

This – but things are so messed up now that there isn’t a good option for that.

What is good for the system – and what is good for us perhaps an overlap, but in the same way most people struggle to keep weight off because they won’t do what’s actually good for them versus what is the easy option.

So we all just end up blundering through.

IMO the biggest problem is 40 years of neoliberalism has created such financial disparity that the mega wealthy have ownership of politics and the media message, and they use that power to further rig the system in their favour, very effectively bypassing democracy

This.

It’s funny you don’t hear politicians talk about the ills of Neoliberalism and that’s telling to me. But you do hear plenty talk of the problems of socialism. Again the noisy minority always cut through.

The powerful have control of a system which simply benefits those with assets. It’s no more complex than that. And the housing market is the supply limited bridge between the haves and have nots.

There’s a lot to fix though.

I think another thing that’s a bit of an issue is people’s expectations of what change might look like- we’ve been so conditioned to accept low standards that change seems absurd. People just struggle with the concept of it. There’s a negative feedback loop in there.

This is why Starmer’s Labour seems like a way out when it’s simply not – it’s  going to be breath of fresh air for about 5 mins. Parties aren’t interested in change they’re interested in the staying/gaining in power. That’s two different objectives.