• This topic has 124 replies, 47 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by Drac.
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  • HOW MUCH, NHS paying compo to upset woman
  • Premier Icon FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    I don’t think it’s victim-blaming to question the size of the compensation. Absolutely she deserved compensation for the way she was treated but over 8 years salary? Maybe it’s one of those things you have to experience to appreciate the impact it can have but it’s hard (for me anyway) to understand her statement that she doesn’t think she’ll be able to work again

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Nick – I think you are the one missing the point. Lets make this simple shall we?

    Police investigate crime therefore, in your world, when crime happens to police they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    Doctors treat patients therefore, in your world, when a doctor gets injured or ill they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    Construction workers build things therefore, in your world, if their house fell down they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    Rape councillors help people who have been raped therefore, in your world, if they were raped they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    Etc.

    What you have spectacularly failed to grasp is that HR, like most other professions, deal with things as a third party rather than as a participant. So no, it is neither reasonable nor realistic that she should be expected to just deal with it. Except of course she did, just not in the twisted way some here think she should (shut up like a good girl). End of the day she did the correct thing and has been compensated for LOSS OF FUTURE EARNINGS the same as anyone would.

    All that aside, it should be perfectly obvious that whoever your HR grievance is with is not involved here.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Maybe it’s one of those things you have to experience to appreciate the impact it can have but it’s hard (for me anyway) to understand her statement that she doesn’t think she’ll be able to work again

    Exactly.

    And this is where we get into male privilege which is where you (and a few others I might add) are speaking from. But honestly, well done for recognising the fact, if more people did maybe situations like this would be less common.

    Premier Icon yunki
    Free Member

    She was probly aaaarskin for it…

    There’s some pretty rapey blokes posting on this thread hey? 🙁

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    Police investigate crime therefore, in your world, when crime happens to police they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    No they don’t ‘suck it up’. They should be able to investigate the crime and arrest the perpetrator. As I would expect them to do for a member of the public

    Doctors treat patients therefore, in your world, when a doctor gets injured or ill they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    No, They don’t suck it up. They should be able self medicate or referring themselves to appropriate specialist. As I would expect them to do for a member of the public

    Construction workers build things therefore, in your world, if their house fell down they should just suck it up because they should be equipped to deal with it.

    No. They shouldn’t just suck it up. But most of the builders I know Would happily effect minor repairs themselves.

    Etc

    I would expect an HR director to deal with harassment better than an ordinary member of staff. No one is saying she should shut up like a good girl. She should already have the tools in place to deal with perpetrators. Just to point, the perpetrator and anyone who tried to cover it up should be feeling the full force of the law and they seem to have got off very lightly.

    Premier Icon robowns
    Free Member

    Im with Wrecker on this one. Terrible behaviour but 10 years money? Ridiculous.

    Premier Icon bails
    Full Member

    Squirrelking and Yunki +1

    There are some right arseholes on this thread. Just proper horrible arseholes.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    The tile example is a classic, if it was in this case the tile would have thrown itself at you the roof denied it existed, the hospital denied you turned up and the insurance company basically calling you a lier.

    And who’s responsibility is that and who polices it? IMO those tasks are split between the CEO and the HR director

    Well as it was the chairman doing this to her I’m not sure how that goes…

    Premier Icon bails
    Full Member

    I would expect an HR director to deal with harassment better than an ordinary member if the public. No one is saying she should shut up like a good girl. She should already have the tools in place to deal with perpetrators

    Nick, what does that mean?

    She tried to deal with it and instead was lied about by the most senior person in the organisation, who colluded with probably the second most senior to have her sacked.

    What, specifically*, should she have done?

    What, specifically*, would you expect your wife/gf/mum/sister to do in that situation?

    *Don’t say “deal with it” or some vague rubbish like that. What actual steps should be taken?

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Having seen the interview with the victim on local news, she’s either very convincing, or this has totally wrecked her confidence and ability to work at that level, certainly in the short term. Dispelled my cynicism.

    She’s been treated the same way any other victim in these circumstances would be. It’s made the news because of the salary the settlement was based on.

    Premier Icon konabunny
    Free Member

    That’s fair. I’m an engineer. If a tile fell of my roof I’d get up there and fix it

    Ahahahhahahahaha #shitengineerssay

    Premier Icon sharkbait
    Free Member

    “I don’t think I could need ever go back into the workplace again.”

    FTFH

    Premier Icon Pigface
    Free Member

    She tried to deal with it and instead was lied about by the most senior person in the organisation, who colluded with probably the second most senior to have her sacked.

    This x 1000

    Where was she meant to turn when the bully is the all powerful boss who then starts up a campaign against her. Not everyone is thick skinned and can cope with stuff like this.

    She did nothing wrong and copped a shitstorm from a jealous spurned man who was in a position of power.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    Nick, what does that mean?

    She tried to deal with it and instead was lied about by the most senior person in the organisation, who colluded with probably the second most senior to have her sacked.

    What, specifically*, should she have done?

    What, specifically*, would you expect your wife/gf/mum/sister to do in that situation?Firstly I’m not an HR director. IMO the HR director should create a workplace where sexual harassment is seen as absolutely unacceptable and then enforce that. If this had happened to my wife/gf/mum/sister I’d be want them to be able to go to HR and I would expect them to have tools and procedures already in place. I would hope they would then follow those procedures and use those tools. If that then failed, as it sounds like happened in this case, I’d be blaming the CEO and HR director for creating an environment in which this can happen.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Well I was trying to find a polite and considered way to put this but Nick, that’s about the biggest load of crap I’ve read in a long time, next you will be blaming her for getting fancied in the first place. The only people more senior that her conspired and colluded to have her fired. Policies don’t cut it with aresholes of that magnitude.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    next you will be blaming her for getting fancied

    that’s actually pretty offensive. It been a pretty interesting debate so far but please don’t make leaps like that. She has an absolute right to be in a workplace free from harassment.

    Policies don’t cut it with aresholes of that magnitude.

    Then the policies are wrong. I fully expect there will be new ones in place as a direct result of this ruling.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Well you already implied that she was doing a rubbish job, failing to make a safe and good work environment and being unable to manage a trivial count of harassment against herself. So hardly a stretch there is it.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    Well you already implied that she was doing a rubbish job, failing to make a safe and good work environment and being unable to manage a trivial count of harassment against herself. So hardly a stretch there is it.

    If there is a culture where sexual harassment is seen as acceptable then is some failing from the CEO and the HR director. I certainly never said it was trivial. It is a big issue and needs to be dealt with.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Where did it say the culture was acceptable, this was the chairman who harassed the HR director and then conspired to have her fired. Good luck to even the best person in a perfect system getting out of that one.
    As the judgement pointed out if the organisation had taken her seriously all this could have been avoided, the only ploy more senior wouldn’t listen, no amount of policy fixes that.

    Premier Icon just5minutes
    Free Member

    wrecker – Member
    £100K for a NHS HR manager? She needed a pay out as she knows that she won’t be able to ride a gravy train like that again.

    My personal experience is that some of the best leaders and managers I’ve worked in my whole career have been in the NHS (including leaders who have clinical and those with general management backgrounds).

    That’s not to say there aren’t a lot of extremely poor leaders and managers but the perception that all NHS managers are overpaid ineffective bureaucrats is very wide of the mark.

    The complexity and politicised environment that NHS managers work in is particularly demanding for those in senior positions – it’s just a shame that the NHS finds it so difficult to (ever) manage out poor performers.

    Premier Icon wrecker
    Free Member

    I don’t have the experience nor exposure to disagree with any of that, just5minutes. My point would be, does the NHS need the rolls royce of leaders considering the financial burden it is under? Is it prudent to have numerous £100k staff per location considering the stress that the junior doctors, nurses etc pay is exposed to?
    Seems to me like it’s the normal sketch of those on the ground getting shafted whilst management rake it in.

    For the record, I have absolutely no problem with people who have obviously (as in this case) been treated dreadfully getting compo payments. £1.4 MILLION from the public purse does sting a bit though. [br mode]How many nurses does that pay for?[/br mode]

    Good job she didn’t use these guys; http://www.winstonsolicitors.co.uk/sexual-harassment-calculator.htm

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    My point would be, does the NHS need the rolls royce of leaders considering the financial burden it is under?

    Not sure if that gets you the rolls Royce…
    The NHS needs good leaders and management due to the fact it’s under massive pressure. I spend a lot of time working with non NHS medical people and the internal politics, egos and the rest need a strong and effective management structure along with people who can deal with complex, difficult and life changing decisions properly.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    If there is a culture where sexual harassment is seen as acceptable

    D’you honestly think that’s the failing here? that the Trust Chairman didn’t understand what he was doing was wrong because of policy failure or some workplace culture? and that somehow because of her position of HR director she’s culpable? How d’you know that she didn’t rebuff his advance, sit him down, read the appropriate policy to him, explain what he’d done was wrong…and that’s the reason for his attempts to have her fired…?

    The answer is of course…We don’t know, so suggesting that she’s complicit is pretty bizarre, no?

    Premier Icon MrsToast
    Free Member

    She didn’t get £1.4 million compensation, she got £832,711- the £1.4 million figure is the cost to the NHS that includes her compensation, as well as the legal costs. It’s a figure that could have been much reduced if they’d agreed to her request for an independent investigation to start with, instead of forcing her to drag it through the courts over several years – during which time she would have been unlikely unable to secure another job of the same stature due to having being fired for bullying, so that’s over two years of salary gone right there.

    It wasn’t just sexual harassment that she was compensated for – it was also unfair dismissal, discrimination (which is seperate from harassment) and victimisation, which will probably have included the fact that she was forced to go through years of court action in order to clear her name of the fabricated bullying claims.

    The NHS has policies against this, but when you’ve got a unprofessional, possessive, jealous and obsessive individual at the top of the chain, who’s got a near equally placed wingman fully ready to back him up on a vendetta, then those policies can’t be enforced – which is why you get cases like this ending up in court, to act as a back up when internal company procedures fail.

    Premier Icon fin25
    Free Member

    Just because HR turn up to all your conduct meetings to help your manager bollock you without hurting your feelings too much does not mean they are all bad.

    This particular lady was the victim of corrupt management. It has nothing to do with the way she managed HR.
    It has nothing to do with how she “dealt” with sexual harassment.
    In fact, she clearly knew HR very well, as, if you actually do your research, you will see that she was prevented from using the grievance procedure by corrupt and collusive upper management. She was therefore given no choice by the NHS trust but to resign and take it to tribunal.

    Any of you that think a HR manager can call the shots over the trust’s chief executive are either deluded or, perhaps more likely, quite sexist.

    Yes, it is a lot of money, but that is down to the NHS trust enabling corruption and collusion at the very top.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    D’you honestly think that’s the failing here?

    As you say it’s impossible for us to know. In my experience H&S failings tend to occur in companies where there is a cultural disregard for H&S. Bullying tends to happen where there is a cultural acceptance of bullying. It is possible that everything was perfect here and this was just a freak one off but in balance of probability I’d lean towards cultural failings. We are getting into speculation though. Again how complicit she was in making policy is getting speculative but if this had happened to someone else lower down the chain I would be looking towards the HR director (amongst others)

    Premier Icon fin25
    Free Member

    Bullying tends to happen where there is a cultural acceptance of bullying

    This is true, but totally irrelevant in this case.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    She didn’t get £1.4 million compensation, she got £832,711- the £1.4 million figure is the cost to the NHS that includes her compensation, as well as the legal costs. It’s a figure that could have been much reduced if they’d agreed to her request for an independent investigation to start with, instead of forcing her to drag it through the courts over several years

    Very valid point. Those who conspired to cover all this up should be bearing the brunt of those £600k legal costs.

    Premier Icon wrecker
    Free Member

    Good post Mrs toast.

    Those who conspired to cover all this up should be bearing the brunt of those £600k legal costs.

    And then some!

    Premier Icon chestrockwell
    Full Member

    By Christ there are some clems on this thread. It’s people like that that make others realise that changing things for the better is much harder than first imagined.

    From personal experience I’d say her salary is about par for course. I’m not saying it should be necessarily but it is.

    Premier Icon MrsToast
    Free Member

    “Very valid point. Those who conspired to cover all this up should be bearing the brunt of those £600k legal costs.”

    Instead the NHS Trust fought the case, even dragging it out for another seven months despite an employment tribunal finding in her favour. They refused her request for an independent inquiry, and instead held a ‘review’ run by a friend of its vice chairman. They allowed Trenchard to resign last week with a payoff of £75000 (as well as him receiving £90000 during his suspension) – in addition to the frame up, he also helped cover up Baines behaviour so that Baines could resign with no stain on his record.

    There are a lot of people to get annoyed at in this case, but Helen Marks isn’t one of them.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Full Member

    There are a lot of people to get annoyed at in this case, but Helen Marks isn’t one of them.

    Quite.

    Premier Icon br
    Free Member

    personal experience is that some of the best leaders and managers I’ve worked in my whole career have been in the NHS (including leaders who have clinical and those with general management backgrounds).

    Eh? Based on working for both the public and private sector over the last 30 years, pretty much some of the worse Leaders and Managers I’ve worked with have been in the NHS.

    Written after I posted, but again fits with my impression of 5h1t management:

    Instead the NHS Trust fought the case, even dragging it out for another seven months despite an employment tribunal finding in her favour. They refused her request for an independent inquiry, and instead held a ‘review’ run by a friend of its vice chairman. They allowed Trenchard to resign last week with a payoff of £75000 (as well as him receiving £90000 during his suspension) – in addition to the frame up, he also helped cover up Baines behaviour so that Baines could resign with no stain on his record.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    There are a lot of people to get annoyed at in this case

    Hard to disagree with that. The headlines do distract from what is probably the bigger issue. Even we seem to have sucked into a side debate. Is anything likely to happen to those guys?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    Mrs Toast – Member

    There are a lot of people to get annoyed at in this case, but Helen Marks isn’t one of them.

    Basically this, qft.

    Premier Icon bails
    Full Member

    Eh? Based on working for both the public and private sector over the last 30 years, pretty much some of the worse Leaders and Managers I’ve worked with have been in the NHS.

    You know that more than one person works for the NHS, right?
    So it’s completely possible for someone excellent and someone terrible to be employed by the NHS?

    Premier Icon wrecker
    Free Member

    From personal experience I’d say her salary is about par for course

    According to payscale.com, it’s right at the very top.

    The average pay for a Human Resources (HR) Manager is £34,275 per year.

    The average salary for a Human Resources (HR) Director is £65,174 per year

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    It’s the 5th biggest employer in the world, stands to reason it should have a load of the best and the worst people in it. I’ve not met all of them though.

    Premier Icon PJM1974
    Free Member

    I think it’s fair to say that the employee in question is a little bit more than simply “upset”…

    …for this level of compensation, there must have been significant and systematic failures of HR and management to address the problem. I’m sure the likes of The Taxpayer’s Alliance would label it a “license to print money”, but then quite a few right-leaning commentators don’t like uppity employees who might say no to their boss’s perfectly legitimate desire to sexually abuse them.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I think it’s fair to say that the employee in question is a little bit more than simply “upset”.

    Given the level of petty stw hr issues churned through on here that get over inflated this has to rank above upset…

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