How much is fair for a private landowner to charge to host a race?

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  • How much is fair for a private landowner to charge to host a race?
  • Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    What land are you using?
    What will be the impact/remediation required
    How much land?
    What is going on in the event?
    How much are you making?

    as long as a bit of string really

    Tinbred
    Member

    a couple of quid? a tenner per rider or just a flat fee?

    any thoughts or experiences?

    Tinbred
    Member

    Up to 15 miles of roads and tracks plus access road for ambulance, car parking, parking for concessions, such as LBS, coffee van, pie cart, mobile massage service etc.

    don simon
    Member

    As much as you’re prepared to pay?

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Suspect your first suggestion is missing the word “thousand”.

    project
    Member

    Tinbred – Member
    Up to 15 miles of roads and tracks plus access road for ambulance, car parking, parking for concessions, such as LBS, coffee van, pie cart, mobile massage service etc.

    Also somewhere for all the competitors to park, the spectators, and visitors, and then there is rubbish removal, bins and skips,signage,insurance and lots more.

    Dont forget landownrers are greedy want cash so they will charge what they want and a biot more as they can reduce the price a bit, but cant usually increase the price once agred.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Where will you be parking the carsturning into an unusable bog? Anything with good grass on wont be popular or cheap.

    I assume you will be clearing the site, collecting all rubbish etc?

    Are these farm tracks or forest stuff? Again if you damage it (ie fill with muddy ruts they will need repairing.

    Have you already asked? The wording of your post suggests you didn’t like the answer!!

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    It varies hugely, some charge very little as gain from the business others will want as much as possible and a cut of takings.

    Tinbred
    Member

    All of the above. Strategic planning at the moment, have not approached landowners yet.
    I am hoping someone would be able to put some idea of amounts up?

    Aidan
    Member

    £1300 for the weekend for a field to park in, plus access to woods enough for a 7 mile course was what I paid last year.

    A couple of alternatives were a little less, but £1000 or so seemed to be the general area.

    Premier Icon davetrave
    Subscriber

    Well last time I organised a race (c6 years ago) FC were quoting around £2.50 per rider or something like that. Factor in inflation, recession, etc… So as it was the Army MTB Champs I ended up using military training land that wasn’t as good but was free to me. That said, the MOD, or rather the commercially contracted management company Landmarc (read expensive), will charge similar commercial rates for privately-organised events as well, assuming there isn’t training going on (more and more common these days with the withdrawal from Germany, etc.), can’t remember how much though.

    Rorschach
    Member

    FC/tilhill wanted 6k for 10@Kirroughtree/10@llandegla.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    FC/tilhill wanted 6k for 10@Kirroughtree/10@llandegla.

    Dear me that’s a lot for using facilities that already exist and won’t be much damaged by it. Plus they get free advertising for their trail centres.

    Rorschach
    Member

    That’s why there’s no 10@kirroughtree/10@llandegla this year.

    tallgavin
    Member

    Donkey’s years ago, when I used to race motorcross, landowners charged around the £400 for the day for the use of a 20 acre field for the track and another smaller field for parking. They supplied nothing. This was also before the days of litigation etc when they were more relaxed about these things.
    I’d reckon £1000 minimum these days. Scale that up if the area you are using is larger etc.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    That’s why there’s no 10@kirroughtree/10@llandegla this year.

    What did they charge the year before?

    NB 10@Kirroughtree was my favourite MTB event, worth even driving up from Cambridge…

    legend
    Member

    The pre-race entries for Kirroughtree and Yn Llandegla were down by approximately 70 per cent on previous years meaning it was not financially viable to run all three events.

    No mention of high land costs

    http://www.singletrackworld.com/2012/04/two-of-three-ten-mountain-bike-races-cancelled/

    No Fuss also thank the Forestry Commission Scotland, UPM Tilhil and One Planet Adventure for their support in running the events in 2011 and their positive approach and preparation for this year and next.

    Dear me that’s a lot for using facilities that already exist and won’t be much damaged by it. Plus they get free advertising for their trail centres.

    I suppose they’d argue that those facilities cost a lot to build, and if you’re going to use them comercialy you’ll have to pay for them.

    I suppose also there’s a lot less required logisicaly in just setting up a start/finish and sending off people for 10 laps of the red or whatever compared to MM, 24/12, gorrick 100 or SITS where there isn’t a defined course. Also stuf like toilets, showers, bike washes are going to be easier to sort at a trail center, so that £6k probably covers a lot more than the £1500 for a fieeld and woods.

    As for free advertising, why not try the same line on photographers / graphic designers, they love it!

    I know that some NT parks are free, they just expect the competitors to pay the usual park entry fee. But they usualy seem to be things like orienteering or car shows, can’t imagine they’d be so happy if you turend the park into the aftermath of a wet MM.

    Rorschach
    Member

    It was half that the year before…they were allegedly a little tardy with payment though 🙁

    Premier Icon dti
    Subscriber

    send me an email to beudybanc AT yahoo.co.uk with what you have in mind.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    In the case of Kirroughtree, our taxes paid for the course to be built and also the forest to be managed, so it’s not quite the same as a private landowner. The FC still get money for parking, people using the tea rooms etc, so it’s not like they’re being taken for a ride. As it is they’ve just lost a load of custom.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    As for free advertising, why not try the same line on photographers / graphic designers, they love it!

    Most start off by doing free / low cost jobs just to get exposure and build up a reputation / portfolio. (My brothers / sisters in law are all commercial graphic designers / photographers).

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    FC/tilhill wanted 6k for 10@Kirroughtree/10@llandegla.

    10 @ Kirroughtree back in 2010 had 547 riders paying around £40 per rider. So that’s almost £22k in race fees.

    The FC probably look at the expected revenue and say “We want x%”

    In the case of Kirroughtree, our taxes paid for the course to be built and also the forest to be managed, so it’s not quite the same as a private landowner. The FC still get money for parking, people using the tea rooms etc, so it’s not like they’re being taken for a ride. As it is they’ve just lost a load of custom.

    Yup, our taxes, not just no fuss or whoever’s running the event. And they’re manageing the forrest quite well if they can lease it out for £6k a weekend!

    Most start off by doing free / low cost jobs just to get exposure and build up a reputation / portfolio. (My brothers / sisters in law are all commercial graphic designers / photographers).

    Could they do me a pie-chart and a logo?

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    well if they can lease it out for £6k a weekend!

    except they quite obviously can’t lease it out for £6k a weekend…

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Could they do me a pie-chart and a logo?

    Bit out your league I’m afraid, my Brother’s work is normally on Bill boards in central London / TV (BBC mainly) and my sister in law does commissions for the Sunday Colour supplements, but they all started off at the bottom many years ago.

    marty
    Member

    THere’s an agreement between Forestry Commission and British / Scottish Cycling which sets out (some of) the fees involved. In the initial drafts of the Scottish one at least, the fees applied to anyone organising an event, even if organiser not going through British / Scottish Cycling. Can’t find my copy of the final agreement, but one of the parties involved could supply latest version.

    http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/mtb/article/mtb20100514–British-Cycling–Forestry-Commission-Reach-Historic-Agreement-0

    Paul McG
    Member

    Sadly that Scottish Cycling/Forestry Commission document is causing total chaos for several other sports’ National Governing Bodies. It’s a total stitch-up. I am absolutely stunned that Scottish Cycling allowed themselves to be implicated in it. The Land Reform Act (Scotland) and Scottish Outdoor Access Code both seem to specifically outlaw charging for access, and both quite clearly define access rights being the same for both an individual and an organiser.

    The document is based on a recommendation from an SNH-headed group, which is essentially dominated by large landowners. They’ve come up with a magic attendee figure of 25. This is the point they’ve decided that access fees kick in. It has no basis in law whatsoever – it doesn’t come from either the LRA or SOAC. Strangely, this hasn’t stopped the Forestry Commission claiming that it does. I’ve read them both (yes, I am that dull) and there is no distinction between individual/small event/big event rights. Technically under the LRA and SOAC we don’t even need to seek permission (though you’d be an idiot not to).

    We have a requirement to be ‘responsible’, but nothing in there about paying for access. I’m concerned that once the FCS can get away with this, other landowners will follow, and centuries of right to roam access in Scotland will be eroded.

    mattsccm
    Member

    Access for just playing or for a competition/event. That would be different . Also private land or FC ? Access land or agricultural. More details please.

    mattsccm
    Member

    If there is no legal agreement and you want to use it for an event then its up to the owner. Which is fair enough.

    big_n_daft
    Member

    British Cycling and Forestry Commission England have signed a ten year agreement, creating a formidable partnership designed to bring more mountain bike events to forests across the country

    the thing is that British cycling don’t actually organise any events

    druidh
    Member

    Paul McG – Member
    Sadly that Scottish Cycling/Forestry Commission document is causing total chaos for several other sports’ National Governing Bodies. It’s a total stitch-up. I am absolutely stunned that Scottish Cycling allowed themselves to be implicated in it. The Land Reform Act (Scotland) and Scottish Outdoor Access Code both seem to specifically outlaw charging for access, and both quite clearly define access rights being the same for both an individual and an organiser.

    Woah! The consequence of having open/ no-charge access would be that events would simply stop happening. Open Access is temporarily suspended for the likes of the Worlds at Fort William. Can you imagine doing anything else? Folk just walking/riding about as they please in the middle of an event? And without charging for access, some events would not be financially viable.

    That Scottish thing doesn’t sound right at all. The right to roam stuff cannot possibly include the right to run your business on someone else’s land.

    druidh
    Member

    It depends on what that “business” is. For instance, if I was an MTB guide, leading a party through the Scottish Highlands, I wouldn’t have to pay to access the land. That seems reasonable?

    However, if I wanted to set up an event in someones field without their permission, that wouldn’t be allowed. Also sounds reasonable?

    As always with the law, you’ll get some grey areas where these two extremes meet. That’s why we have courts – to define “reasonable”.

    proteus
    Member

    i’ve always wondered if astroturfers maintain their own searches or whether their summoned?

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