Overhearing some idiots the other day getting cross about “immigrants coming over ‘ere and living off benefits paid for by my taxes” got me thinking.
Say those guys earn 30k and pay around 7k in tax, NI etc they surely don’t pay for all the services such as NHS, policing, schooling, governance, civil servanting that they might use in a year, let alone paying for others’. How much do you have to earn to “pay your way”?
My dad used to have some statistic similar to 90% of income tax is paid by the richest 5%, ie. 95% of us are living off the state in one way or another

Try this – it might surprise you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13633966

Think you have to be one of the Elite.

Using Male, 36, self employed, it seemed to break even at £21k gross income.

According to that BBC calculator I am 12k worse off.

But there a lots of ways of looking at it, are schooling costs worked out on the parents income, or part of the benefit to tax calculations of an individual across their lifetime. When I am retired and probably paying far less tax I will also probably use far more services. Without clarifying how they calculate the figures they are meaningless, other than a tool to push political ideology.

That link is interesting but I agree completely with MSP, I’d like to see a (simple) break down of the calculations and I’m not sure deciles are accurate enough given how much the top end pays. Either way, the earnings to pay your way seem to be a lot lower than I thought.

Christ. According to that, me and Mrs PP (Employed, no kids, average salaries) are in the 9th bracket. That’s a staggering amount of tax we pay…..

I’d like to see a (simple) break down of the calculations

Did you press the “How this figure breaks down” link?

(9th decile here too)

Stoner – that doesn’t add up, as a couple of kids in school would wipe out that, never mind if one of the household was, say, disabled.

10th decile for me and mrs wrecker. Negative £27K!

Well Leggy it’s nice for your dad to be in the 5% annd paying his part of the 90%.

I’d think that most families are fairly neutral in terms of how much tax they pay and the service they receive from the state. Otherwise we’d be paying more tax!

I know that the Mrs and I pay a very large amount of tax/NI – we don’t get any state benefits back directly, just indirect benefits – such as NHS. I’m fine with that.

I dont get it…

Find out what households similar to yours pay in tax and what they get back in the form of benefits and services by entering your details into the form below. Enter all the people you live with, including children.

Households from the 7th decile and above, on average, pay more in tax than they receive in benefits and services.

It says I pay more than I get back in services but I have access to the police, fire brigade, NHS, schools, NHS again because its so good, bin collections, libraries, and about a million other things I cant think of right now.

I think I get far more back out than the £1900 “extra” the BBC thinks I am putting in…

Although I would be happy with voting not to spend any of my taxes on politicians and send that % of my taxes to the homeless and unemployed – they need it more 😉

David.

(Edit – this in an interesting spreadsheet though and good on the BBC for at least making it available! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/business/11/net_income_download/xls/pwc_gross_to_net.xlsx).

I am in band 7 like Stoner. If it was jut me I would be in band 9. I certainly dont feel as well off as that suggests. Interestingly if we had another child we would be in band 6.

Looking at the graph: basically it is the 7th decile and above that pay more than they receive.

So it’s not the top 5% paying for the 90%, it is the top 40% paying for 60%.

7 th decile which somehow gives me an income greater than my income- did a banker work this out?

Households in the seventh decile pay £12,534 tax, on average. This includes £2,015 in VAT. They receive benefits of £10,634. This is made up of £6,168 in the form of services, such as healthcare or education and cash benefits of £4,466. This includes things such as child benefit or pensions.

i dont get any cash back [ no pension or child benefit or tax credits] so I am not sure what this refers to tbh.
seems a bit rubbish tbh- the calculation not the amount I pay.

-£27k 😕

Time I shipped my income off to Monaco in the dog’s name

I looked at this excel sheet link and it seems to only have education, NHS and rail travel subsidy as benefits in kind. What about civil servant wages, army etc. Surely these are vast sums? I have come to the conclusion that that BBC page is crap and doesn’t answer my question satisfactorily. NEXT!

7 th decile which somehow gives me an income greater than my income- did a banker work this out?

It’s a decile. Your income falls somewhere in the 10% range it covers.

Looking at the graph: basically it is the 7th decile and above that pay more than they receive.

So it’s not the top 5% paying for the 90%, it is the top 40% paying for 60%.

That was not what was mentioned. The OP quoted that the top 5% pay 90% of income tax. That could still be true. The graph shopws that the top 40% are net contributors, different thing.

And remember, this is AVERAGE, so those whining about not getting a cash payment, well, go out and have some kids!

The OP quoted that the top 5% pay 90% of income tax. That could still be true.

Agreed. but they also said “i.e. 95% of us are living off the state in one way or another” which doesn’t follow and doesn’t appear to be true by that graph.

I know Graham but my actual income puts me in the 5th and I dont get any other income.
I dont understand why they say my “income” is greater than my “income” when I get no other money or benefits.
I accept I “benefit” from the things taxes pay for but i dont get any actual money.
It also has me paying more tax than i recieve but somehow counting this deficit as a benefit
ie i pay 12 k tax but get 10 k “benefits” back – how is it a benefit when I have “paid” for it and i get less back that i paid?
I refer you to my banker comment earlier
it just seems qite poorly explained and i dont understand why me getting less tax back than i pay somehow bumps up my income- that is disposable income as well so not even my income!!!
Makes no sense tbh

I am in band 7 like Stoner

never said I was in the 7th decile 😉

I dont understand why they say my “income” is greater than my “income” when I get no other money or benefits.

Because, on average, someone in your position does?

i.e. I don’t get the £292 Disability Living Allowance benefit, but a given number of folk in my decile do get that benefit, hence the average.

It also has me paying more tax than i recieve but somehow counting this deficit as a benefit
ie i pay 12 k tax but get 10 k “benefits” back – how is it a benefit when I have “paid” for it and i get less back that i paid?

The “benefits” are what you get from the state, and please remember this is AVERAGE, so if you have no kids, then no Child Allowance etc.

Agreed. but they also said “i.e. 95% of us are living off the state in one way or another” which doesn’t follow and doesn’t appear to be true by that graph.

Agreed, it was an assumption by the OP which is incorrect.

“95% of us are living off the state in one way or another” which doesn’t follow and doesn’t appear to be true by that graph.

to be fair, I said my dad used to have a statistic like that. I didn’t say that it was the case which is why I asked the original question.

leggyblonde: I don’t think we’re saying your dad was wrong.

wallace1492 is quite right, it could be true that “90% of income tax is paid by the richest 5%” (I can’t be bothered doing the sums).

But your follow on statement that this must mean “95% of us are living off the state in one way or another” doesn’t follow from that first statement.

I get you now.

In one of the, er, higher deciles.

because I’m worth it

BoardinBob – Member
-£27k

Time I shipped my income off to Monaco in the dog’s name

Nah, you can by the cakes on Sunday!

Ouchy. I pay a crap load of tax evidentally. How depressing.

According to that, me and Mrs PP (Employed, no kids, average salaries) are in the 9th bracket. That’s a staggering amount of tax we pay…..

Same as me and t’husband. Although if we include the dog it goes down to band 8! 😆

Fourth decile. Thanks guys! 😆