Was 4th cat last season, got enough points to move up to 3rd. Did my first 2/3/4 crit last week and got dropped after just 3 laps. Managed to hold the gap or even close it slightly for maybe a couple of laps but then I was utterly wasted. After 16 laps of 35 I was lapped and called it a day.

But……is it a case that I need to do more and more often? Or do I just keep training? I started from the back which wasn’t great and couldn’t move up quick enough due to other backmarkers weaving.

Should I finish the race on my own? That just seems like a long repetitive time trial….

It seems futile once you’re dropped to even try and get back on the bunch, especially when I couldn’t manage that in 4th cat.

Any of you guys who race, what markers or targets do you set to make that improvement?

You need to train properly for crits, like doing 10 second sprints every 30 seconds for around 12mins x2. That’s what I used to do, hard and hurt like hell, but it certainly made the constant sprinting out of corners in crits a lot easier, it helped in road races too.

Position is also, as you know, a thing you will have to work on.
Are you in a club where you can ask for advice or go along to training sessions?

Always chase. Always finish.

You probably have enough fitness to finish in the bunch of a 234 race, so it’s really racecraft. You need to work at holding position in the top third, particularly if the course is technical, where corners are designed to break up the field.

Try and maintain smooth speed through the corners, and be ready to put in an effort to get back on after the exit.

Just keep trying it’s likely to be an experience/ racecraft thing. Work on being able to go hard and recover at a fairly high pace like short V02 Max with recovery at Tempo and work on not needing to to go to that pace. The latter comes with positioning before hills/corners and windy straights and being near the front to quickly react to attacks.

You’re unlikely to get back on but it doesn’t harm trying. You need to gain as much experience as possible in the bunch reacting to the accelerations. I personally wouldn’t be fussed about finishing when properly dropped but I would give it a 100% effort to get back on. It’ll wipe your chances of a good race but it could give you a few more laps with the bunch and more training for recovering quickly after a hard effort.

You’ll likely find your sustainable power at threshold is higher than the average power for the duration of the race and it’s only your top end that is lacking.

As for markers keep trying to hang on for one more lap, an extra couple of laps each race is fine. Once you’ve got a full race try to get in a good position at the end of the race, try and hit the last corner 5th-ish wheel and if you make it in the top 10 in the last corner have a sprint.

Iain

When I started I was dropped for the first 5 races, some sooner than others. This race track (Mallory) allowed you to drop off, get your breath back, then re-join the bunch when they caught you again.
I did try to keep up once, but there is no way you could catch them, when they lapped me, I was dropped again as I was wasted.
If the Rules allow you to re-join once lapped, then take it easy when you’ve been dropped, rejoin at the back, and try and keep up again.
My last race I kept up for the whole race – never been so fast in my life, 27mph over 40km.
My TT times were 1:05/ 23mph for 25 miles, so the group riding makes a big difference.

Will they let you take a lap out and rejoin the bunch?

Other than that positioning is key. It is easier to go into ccorneres at the front as the back of the field ripples as people brake and you’ll have to sprint each time. Of course everyone wants to be near the front so remember if you are not moving up you are move ng back.

Enter some 3/4 races? I won a 3/4 but will still just be looking for a bunch finish in a big 2/3/4 this weekend. The winners will be guys looking to move up to 1st not second season chances.

Always chase

or take a lap out, if you,ve been dropped the chances of chasing back on your own are small, cruise and wait for them to come round, don’t sprint at the finish 😉

Out of interest what sort of watts per kilo would you need to finish in the bunch of a 4th Cat road race (not crit) assuming you had the race craft.

It’s racecraft, not fitness.
People underestimate it, everyone trains to heart rate, power, wattage but that’s sod all use if you can’t hold a wheel or corner in a bunch.

This thread:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-long-to-be-a-credible-cat-4-or-am-i-just-crap-road-content
had some really useful advice in it about crit racing.

The Racesmart videos in here are well worth a watch too, there’s loads of info in there:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/racesmart

It’s racecraft, not fitness.
People underestimate it, everyone trains to heart rate, power, wattage but that;’s sod all use if you can’t hold a wheel or corner in a bunch.

Can’t really. Was just thinking of trying it for variety from my XC MTB training. The consequences of getting tangled in one of the inevitable coming togethers probably outweigh the benefits.

Faster club run here I come.

Crits can be brutal. You have to maintain position, keep maximum speed in the corners and get used to repeated efforts. Smaller circuits are even worse since there is precious little sitting in. However always keep going even if you have been lapped, join back in the bunch (not at the front) that is quickest way to get crit fit.

@adsh: my reply was actually a more general one aimed at the OP, it just kind of crossed posts with your question.
Still applies though – nothing gets you race fit like actually racing.

Sorry just re-read your original post….It always takes awhile to find your way when you go up a level, there will be people racing who know how to break it up, be ready, if the guy in front of you can’t hold the wheel you only have a second to jump round him, you have to be intense and commit, you’re going to be riding harder than you have before, so its going to take a while for your fitness to come.

It’s racecraft, not fitness.

Well first crit ever for me last night, a 3/4 at Thruxton. All a bit mental with about 150 in the field. No problems hanging with the lead group and even got into a short lived break of four (wish I’d worked and not just sat there thinking wow I’m in a break!) No chance in the big sprint finish though.

Spent a lot of time on the fringes of the pack in the wind and probably wasted loads of energy though. And definitely lacking a kick out of the corners, seemed to lose loads of places out of every corner. And it definitely seemed like if you weren’t actively moving forwards you were going backwards.

Steep learning curve this race craft business!

Out of interest what sort of watts per kilo would you need to finish in the bunch of a 4th Cat road race (not crit) assuming you had the race craft.

I’m at 4.4 and had no problems with the pace in a 3/4. Though it is definitely more about explosive kick out of corners than threshold power. We averaged 27mph for the hour and I think my NP was only 260W.

4.4 W/Kg should have you dishing some serious pain out in a 3/4 unless you’re just a pure diesel!

Haha, I am a bit. Most of my training is for time trials. Next week’s plan is to try and get to the front a bit more and get stuck in 🙂

All good experience though. Funny thing, read a lot and watched the BC videos about race craft and all that, and ride in pace lines etc. but in no way does that prepare you for the melee of riding in a large pack in a 3/4 race!

At 4.4 you should be ripping it apart and looking to get your 2nd Cat?

I’m about 3.5 (strava estimate) and managed to win my last race by riding half of it in a 2up break and taking the hill top finish. Sounds easy but it nearly killed me and I was lucky/tactical in when I attacked because the bunch just let us ride away (slight climb, twisty road, headwind).

But W/kg has nothing to do with it for most low level racing. Biggest jump for me was learning how to hide in the bunch not using any energy. How to move around using minimal energy, where to be for the bottom of climbs and critical corners. When to attack, who to follow, when to chase, when to let other chase. How to organise a pace line in the break. There are a few riders I like to follow in local races. One is 50 and a 3rd cat (having been a 1st) He will always get a good finish and what he lacks in sprint he makes up for in tactics.

As a strong climber I find that I can position myself easily when the road goes up hill so I make sure I’m where I want to be at these points. In lower level races I’ll up the pace on climbs to thin the group out. In higher level ones I’ll use it to get back up to the front.

You may find that in crits people deliberately open up a gap in front into a corner and then kick out of it. On the front (first 5) you don’t need to kick but they often will, knowing that everyone further back will be going harder and therfore be more tired in the sprint – some guys won’t make it and get dropped.

4.4 W/Kg should have you dishing some serious pain out in a 3/4 unless you’re just a pure diesel!

This is what I mean. You can turn up to a 3/4 or 2/3/4 with the best VO2, the highest W/kg, the blingest bike but if you don’t know the basic racecraft you’ll be chewed up and spat out the back.

A bunch can be doing 4-5kph faster than a lone rider, even one with 4.4W/kg. It’s knowing when and how to sit in the bunch, hold your position, save your energy that’ll get you round.

Well obviously, but being stronger than the majority of the rest of the riders helps no end as you can sit in the first 10 or 15 without any issues.

I’m hoping 4.6 will see me having some fun on club runs. Maybe after a few of those I can consider an entry. Looks like son’s CAAD10 might not get sold.

4.4 W/Kg should have you dishing some serious pain out in a 3/4 unless you’re just a pure diesel!

It doesn’t work like that even if you take the racecraft out! I’m at about 4.5W/kg but only weigh 59.5-60kg, that basically means my W/kg sounds impressive…and that’s it. Once someone that weighs more than a small boy starts throwing down the horsepowers I’m ****!

Here is another tip don’t do crits. Not as silly as it sounds, if you are a climber or prefer slightly steadier efforts then a ‘proper’ road race will be easier than a crit. Plus you typically don’t need to fight for position so much in a road race. There are other problems however, like steep climbs.

At 4.4 you should be ripping it apart and looking to get your 2nd Cat?

Give me a break, it was my first ever time racing on the road bike 🙂

Can see that it is massively about racecraft and experience though, good positioning, reading the race, knowing what’s going on etc. Which I really don’t have yet.

Here is another tip don’t do crits.

Well I’m just doing it for fun, which it was. Know i’m not suited to it but was crit curious.

This is what I mean. You can turn up to a 3/4 or 2/3/4 with the best VO2, the highest W/kg, the blingest bike but if you don’t know the basic racecraft you’ll be chewed up and spat out the back.

Trainer road and testers turning up to do crits has a lot to answer for.I got away with a lot initially by having big elbows and being stupid/quick through the twisty bits.

At 4.4 you should be ripping it apart and looking to get your 2nd Cat?

Give me a break, it was my first ever time racing on the road bike

I know the feeling, I have raced mtb, timetrialled and done hill climbs for years. My first race I felt great, could sit on the front (everybody seemed happy with that) move around on hills thought I would do really well. Then on the last lap all hell broke lose and I went straight out the back.

I find “proper” road races easier. Crits favour people with lots of crit racing experience. Courses are tight with little in the way of hills so you really need to be on the ball to not end up at the back or in the wind. When there are hills, and a more traditional break/chase setup I do much better – normally because I am in the break and don’t have to worry so much about bunch positioning.

Yes, may have to seek out some proper road races.

TBH, I was fairly happy with my first outing. Had fun. Didn’t crash. Finished in the lead group. Learnt loads!

Apologies to the OP for the digression.

As said certainly enter a 3/4 race, 2/3/4 races are hard for obvious reasons, that and the winners are likely to be good level cat 2 riders looking to move up.

– Don’t site at the back, top 1/3 at all times, and try not to let people pass, or before you know it you’ll be at the back chasing to get back on.
– Learn how to corner low and quick
– Get aero
– Improve sprinting out of corners. I practice this alot and it helps

Also I don’t think W/kg on Strava are that accurate. It has me at 6.6w/kg for this segment:
https://www.strava.com/segments/9111397?filter=overall

It doesn’t work like that even if you take the racecraft out! I’m at about 4.5W/kg but only weigh 59.5-60kg, that basically means my W/kg sounds impressive…and that’s it. Once someone that weighs more than a small boy starts throwing down the horsepowers I’m ****!

So hide in the wheels on the flat and use your climbing ability when the road goes uphill. I’m guessing you’re quite short too? Plenty of drafting options to play. Try being 6’2″ but having the build of a climber not a rouleur, you really need to be creative then, even when knocking on 5W/Kg!

Also I don’t think W/kg on Strava are that accurate. It has me at 6.6w/kg for this segment:

W/Kg we’re talking here are for threshold (so for an hour) rather than a short segment. Strava Watts are random numbers anyway unless it’s picking up your PM readings.

Haha ya, pretty short, fair play, there’s always someone worse off eh! That’s generally what I try to do. I’ve had my better results on calm days with uphill finishes! As soon as it’s windy though I may aswell call it a day!

Yes on a flat crit course it is probably absolute watts that matters.

My strava figure comes from longer rides as I’m on premium for free in April.

Your power output really needs to be looked at in terms of time. Mine is the figure it gives from a much longer segment. It also doesn’t know the weather so you get a higher figure with a tailwind compared to a headwind as it simply works out the energy required to get you up the hill vs your weight.

Ultimately it doesn’t matter. Only thing that matters is where you finish*. No one remembers the w/kg of the guy who came 13th in the 2004 tour.

*Oh and enjoying yourself – unless you are a pro then that may trump everything. IF you cross the line last and happy then keep doing it.

Only thing that matters is where you finish

Oh and enjoying yourself

Latter for me*. Not a priority, not what I’m working towards, just giving it a go for a bit of variety and fun.

* I reserve the right to change my mind here once I’ve done a few more 🙂

4 watts/kg sees me finishing top third in E123 races at Hillingdon (and top third is always a good race objective for me). But threshold power is NOT the determining factor for success. My one minute power is pretty low and the 5 second power dismal! Racecraft keeps me in the top third and I can work on the front and occasionally get into a breakaway. Chasing down breaks is my speciality!

So I’d say you need to work on short-term efforts to be able to meet accelerations, then practice moving up in the bunch to hold position. Try some 1,2,3,4,3,2,1 minute pyramid efforts at full effort, with matched recovery. Follow this with 20/40 sprint efforts (20 second sprint, 40 second recovery…). These will be more useful than tuning the threshold power.

By the time I finally accrued enough points to become a third cat, I was plenty fast enough, but top end finishing is something I continue to struggle with – and probably always will at 68 kilos on flat courses. But there is nothing like road racing.

4 watts/kg sees me finishing top third in E123 races at Hillingdon (and top third is always a good race objective for me). But threshold power is NOT the determining factor for success. My one minute power is pretty low and the 5 second power dismal! Racecraft keeps me in the top third and I can work on the front and occasionally get into a breakaway. Chasing down breaks is my speciality!

Just in case anyone in interested… to stay in the lead bunch in the 34 last night with non existent race craft… my peak powers (real, not Strava fiction) from the race were…

5s 697W
30s 510W
1min 393W
5min 291W
NP for the 48 mins 272

All pretty easy really. Would have been a lot less probably had I been confident to ride in the middle of the bunch and keep out of the wind.

If I wanted to do better at crits then I’d definitely do something along the lines of what TiRed said. Pretty obvious you don’t need high threshold really, need good short bursts and ability to recover quickly, and lots of race craft!

This x100

good short bursts and ability to recover quickly, and lots of race craft!

Thanks guys! Yeah, according to my Stages I’m around 4.1W/kg FTP but this seems to mean naff all so far as keeping with the sharp ramps in speed in a crit or even a road race.

I started at the back of the bunch in the crit and got stuck behind a few guys weaving about – these guys couldn’t keep up with the pace and I couldn’t get past them fast enough. I held the bunch at a distance and closed the gap a bit but was then totally wasted. I probably could have rejoined at the back of the field when they came round again but it just becomes the same fight for every hairpin before getting binned off the back again.

I did a flat road race in a field of 80 at the start of March and this was fine – but I didn’t have any power to get off the front when I ended up on the front on the odd moment. A hilly road race a couple of weeks ago and I got dropped…but it was more on the descent when the gaps opened and I wasn’t prepared to take the risks in the wet.

I wanted to keep doing the crits as a way of improving my top end and they’re also normally mid-week, so its less time out of family life than at the weekend.

I did a flat road race in a field of 80 at the start of March and this was fine – but I didn’t have any power to get off the front when I ended up on the front on the odd moment.

If you find yourself on the front, ease up. Unless you are ridiculously strong relative to the other racers you wont be able to ride people off your wheel and you are just wasting energy. Dont feel like you have to do your turn, save energy for when it matters.

I wanted to keep doing the crits as a way of improving my top end and they’re also normally mid-week, so its less time out of family life than at the weekend.

Continuing to race is a good idea. All the interval sessions and training programmes wont bring you on as much as racing crits. Not just in terms of gaining experience but also fitness too. Maybe i’m just weak willed in training but my max heart rate on a wattbike or turbo when doing sprint intervals is pretty similar to my average for 45-60 minutes in a crit!

Yeah, I did ease up when I got to the front, cos it was bloody hard just being there.

If I get dropped in a crit and lapped by about 30 minutes and pull out, thats just 30 minutes of training to feel wrecked rather than an hour or so that I’d do if I was doing an interval session.

Seems like this failure to finish is almost arbotrarily reducing the time I’m spending on the bike. And with that comes a loss of fitness surely?

I like the idea of hilly interesting road races but whether I like the reality of the pain that those bring is another matter….