twohundred

+1

I’m not so sure the changes that need to happen are happening, Mac. A lot of progress was made but in my lifetime I’ve observed an enlightenment that is now being challenged within many sections of business and society. I never felt so free to say what I thought as in the 80s, now I’m faced with many contradictions:

I shared the queue in my local supermarket with a lady (it could have been a fat bloke I suppose) in a burka for the first time ever recently. Not just “le voile” but the full black thing. What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future? (I remember Sarkozy got a slating on this forum for banning le voile in public sector schools and institutions)

The independant ladies and men of the night have been ousted from their respective corners and there isn’t a red lit window in town. Resrictive laws have driven their profession underground into a world of modern slavery.

Company HR people spend their time trawling through facebook profiles and the like and eliminate profiles they don’t like before things even get to interview. How public do you want your sexual preferences to be when a photo of your presence at a gay pride event with your name next to it can limit your career propects? Thankfully there are many people with my name but I’m still careful what I make public. A student of my wife’s colleague didn’t get a job with a US corporation when he admitted to the interviewer that the person sitting on the toilet in the photograpah was indeed him, a photograph a mate at uni had taken as a prank (so the thing in the Matt Damon film wasn’t just fiction).

I’ve got more to suggest we’re going backwards but the post is getting long so fire away:

What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future?

How does one person’s choice of dress dictate yours? Do you genuinely feel there’s a growing threat to your freedom to choose your own trousers?

Err more like

[Img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1250/936503345_f4d4b4f7db.jpg[/img]

Plus not every breast feeder will be a MILF

[Img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1250/936503345_f4d4b4f7db.jpg[/img]

I shared the queue in my local supermarket with a lady (it could have been a fat bloke I suppose) in a burka for the first time ever recently. Not just “le voile” but the full black thing. What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future?

I knew it.. I nearly said it on page 2 but I thought I ought to hear him out first..

Edukator is this guy after the Special Brew wears off..

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8[/video]

Depends where I go.

I’m not allowed to go shopping barefoot anymore.

You are the naked rambler and I claim my £5 (although I’m not sure I want to contemplate where you keep your wallet)

I’m actually more like

Emsz – what an unpleasant experience. You are very restrained to call this homophobia – there’s no fear here (on their part) just unpleasant thuggery and abuse. No justification of any sort. Hope you got/get over it quickly.

What do you know Yunki, that I’m happy to discuss things you can only rant about? Care to discuss how to reconcile European laws on sexism and blatant sexism within religion. Care to discuss the role of women in society and role of muslim women in society? How to impose the egalitarian values of the secular state when they are challenged by religious fundamentalists.

I shared the queue in my local supermarket with a lady (it could have been a fat bloke I suppose) in a burka for the first time ever recently. Not just “le voile” but the full black thing. What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future?

you are right for the sake of free will and the freedom to dress as you please we need to ban people exercising their free will and dressing in a away you dont like

Remind me of the difference between you and them …oh yes that it different clothes but not a different principle …someone else decides what someone can and cannot wear …

I cant wait for you to impose equality on them by forcing them to stop doing what you disapprove of [ again just what they [allegedly] want to do] …there is just too much irony for words in that post

How public do you want your sexual preferences to be when a photo of your presence at a gay pride event with your name next to it can limit your career propects?

…if viewed by a bigot.

I probably wouldn’t want to work for them if that was the case.

Love the muslamic ray guns!

What do you know Yunki,

I know that although you may be willing to discuss all sorts of lowbrow sociological non-issues.. you are still xenophobic and therefore probably not as intellectually stimulating as you like to think..

for that reason I will just heckle from the sidelines.. to engage any further than that would be akin to using a dog poo as a football.. 🙂

I’m talking about a reversal of individual freedoms Junkyard. Observe the muslim women of the 70s/80s and you’ll find that around the world women were showing their faces, and very often wearing what I can only describe as modern dress. That change in dress went hand in hand with a change in the role of women within those societies. It reflected a number of freedoms won.

So what do we se today? Looking around me I see a return to religious symbols, especially women’s clothing, and a return to the roles that clothing limits women to. Who decides women can’t drive in Saudi? men. Who decides that woman wears that burka in my local supermarket, a man.

And who decides that two women can’t hold hands on Cowley Road?

Is it anyone who thinks they might be better advised not to?

Who decides eh, nsdog. Well you can start with the media and their stereotyping that reinforces predjudice and discrimination within the population. Homosexuals are to blame for AIDS right? No, Google “bushmeat” or something similar for the full answer, but how many of the people that leaned to blame homosexuals from the media in the 80s have now changed their minds?

about a reversal of individual freedoms Junkyard.

I know it is truly shocking you wont let them choose what they wear whilst going on about individual freedom and making them wear what you want. So the difference between you choosing what they wear and someone else choosing it is what exactly?

Observe the muslim women of the 70s/80s and you’ll find that around the world women were showing their faces, and very often wearing what I can only describe as modern dress.

I did not realise how well travelled you were in the Islamic world how kind of you to share [ nonesense] is anything i would argue it is just that the west has become less racist and tolerates people wearing islamic dress in public rather than targeting them for abuse/violence for wearing it etc.

That change in dress went hand in hand with a change in the role of women within those societies. It reflected a number of freedoms won.
They re wrote the Koran when did this happen I need to know more about this and how it affected Sharia law..please tell me more

i am out, this is Just BS. If you cannot see the stupidity of you banning women wearing something to “free them” then nothing i will say will convince you

Let them choose what they wear whether it offends western sensibilities or Muslim ones….not just imposing our superior culture on them …how is that freedom from oppression for anyone?

Well I think perpetuating attitudes that people should

adapt to one’s environment rather than go on a crusade to change it

is actually a way of exerting homophobic pressure, maybe not on purpose, or in your case unwittingly, but perhaps you should think about your mistake instead of taking this entrenched position.

Funny thing is I disagree with JY about this

If you cannot see the stupidity of you banning women wearing something to “free them” then nothing i will say will convince you

It’s like freeing a black slave in the middle of KKK country, great idea, but likely to lead to his rapid death. He is safer in the hands of his slave master. So he will likely choose to not be freed. So ti is with women and the burka, the social pressure from their own society is so enormous, along with conditioning that they think the burka thing is right. In fact they are being oppressed, so the brave step to ban it is a stroke of brilliance imho.

Damn that Parks woman and her non conforming and apple cart tipping attitude.

“Rewrote the Koran” You do sarcasm very badly, Junkyard.

Try Googling things like “Burka Tunisie” and you’ll find lots of articles blogs written by people afraid off and protesting against a return of the burka. The burka was banned up to the revolution last year but is now allowed and women feel under increasing pressure to wear it. Don’t take my word for it, do some Googling on the shake out of last year’s revolutions across the arab world.

The winners in the revolutions look like being the fundamentalist muslims with a reintegration of elements of Sharia law in the constitutions and law. Not good for women’s rights.

It is equally idiotic to decide that the way to free women from the oppression of being forced to wear clothes against their will is to ban them from wearing clothes you dont like.

Some women dont want to wear it some do…they should be free to choose…your way is just as oppressive and forceful as the other way…you are not that daft that you cannot see that.

Depends what you mean by women’s rights what you are essentially saying is our culture is superior to theirs and our treatment of women is better..
I would read up on anthropology if i were you, you cannot judge a culture by your standards or it will always appear to be inferior

FWIW their was research done on this and the muslim community views the west as oppressing women because they are overly sexualised and dress to titillate men. There are many examples of scantily clad media “Whores” with plastic bodies and unfeasibly large breast flaunting them for men and for money – is this the freedom all women deserve?

Ditto we see the wearing the Burkha as oppressing women and restricting their freedom of expression etc

I am not sure any side banning anything can attempt to take any form of moral high ground..
FIWW I think both cultures have a point on the treatment of women , but I remain pro choice even to wear clothes from either culture I may tut at and disapprove

junkyard +1

I’ve always found that most people (from personal experience) who uphold the right of muslims within society to do as they please are the very same people overtly willing to tear into Christianity.

Well that’s got nothing to do with anything.

Well that’s got nothing to do with anything.

It has to do with hypocrisy

I’ve always found pixies at the bottom of me garden..

(calling hypocrisy is a very childish diversion tactic.. waaaay too much importance allocated to that arrogant little device)

tis is very funny edukator, because every single day I see plenty of women/girls going out in the street dressed as what one would qualify ‘modern’, and you would qualify as probably provocative as when the weather is hot, I can actually see their ankles and knees.

I’ve always found that most people (from personal experience) who uphold the right of muslims within society to do as they please are the very same people overtly willing to tear into Christianity.

Is that a twofer on the false premises, love?

I’ve always found pixies at the bottom of me garden..

(calling hypocrisy is a very childish diversion tactic.. waaaay too much importance allocated to that mean little device)

I see it every day from the trendy ‘left’. The anti christian pro islam hypocrisy of their posting is almost laughable.

I have gay friends, they have (and rightly so) serious concerns about the rapidly growing foot that islam is sticking in the door of our hard fought for democratic/social rights.

I see day after day, trendy left wingers, so overtly anti establishment and blinkered in their views, that they’re willing to sell their soul to an even more blinkered and outdated dogma simply to score points at the previous one.

Is that a twofer on the false premises, love?

At least – along with a ” some of my best friends are…….”

the rapidly growing foot that islam is sticking in the door of our hard fought for democratic/social rights.

hmm.. interesting fantasy you have there.. would you like sugar on the right wing propaganda that you so lustily devour..? or a big lemon wedge..?

with regards to your 6th form moral outrage at hypocrisy.. I’m not really sure how an opinion on one subject can categorically void an opinion on another, seperate subject simply because they don’t match..

Propaganda? Your blinkered views and left wing dogma are pathetically hypocritical..

oh dear.. where are you getting your information on the subject from then..?

and I’m really not sure about left wing dogma.. 😆

I think that perhaps in this context you may be referring to people with more cosmopolitan life experiences than your own.. quite different from left wing politics I believe..

and your accusations of hypocrisy.. again.. smack to me of playground debating tactics.. sorry fella..

I came here to heckle edukator though.. not to get drawn into debate with you my friend.. I don’t have the time or the inclination

Could you explain how Islam is ‘sticking it’s foot etc etc hyperbole etc rights’ please?

Could you explain how Islam is ‘sticking it’s foot etc etc hyperbole etc rights’ please?

Dont make me laugh.. have you ever even lived within or near a large muslim community?

Do you know their views on homosexuality?

how is that infringing on your rights..?

you are a frothing right wing looney and I claim my £5

elzorillo – Member
Do you know their views on homosexuality?

Same as Catholics?

Lets get a few things straight.

Christians don’t cut the throats of innocent tourists, Christians don’t blow up buses with innocent people in, Christians don’t blow themselves up in packed London underground trains, Christians don’t blow up trains in Madrid, again full of innocent people.

Christians can take critism without wanting to kill anyone who blasphemes them. Christians don’t chop peoples hands off for theft, Christians don’t dictate that you can starve your Wife if she refuses sex. Christians don’t stone women to death.

What about the above is unfair?