Please help me.

I don’t want to stir a hornets nest but a relative is about to lose his job because he refuses to take any form of covid test PCR/Antigen whatever.

He fears that it is a DNA collection exercise, and that from the test they can:
1) Collect his personal DNA profile and store it.
2) Tell if he is male or female (this is a bizarre fear because like the vast majority of people you can tell this easily by casual observation, I have also never known him to conceal his sex in public).
3) Examine his health risks for a future insurance based health service that might not insure him due to family history of diabetes/heart disease/mental illness etc.

So not being much of scientits I am finding it hard to find ammo to refute his arguments.

I mean PCR testing does “amplify” dna, all my google searching shows this. But its the DNA of the virus not your DNA. I can’t find anything to show how do the testers know the diff, can they tell his sex, disease risk etc from the test??

His wife is distraught he is going to lose his job, I think he has lost the plot slightly and is already a conspiracy nut, obvs I don’t know how far he has gone down the rabbit hole..

I have been draughted in as sensible (I know right, they are desperate) adult in a last ditch attempt to persuade him to test so that he can either go to work, or be +ve and stay home for 14 days.

Sorry, you cannot reason out of some-one that which was not reasoned into them in the first place. It has to come from him. In all likelihood, if he’s a conspiracy nut,  he’ll reject everything you say. it’s a fool’s errand

Tell him that an excel spreadsheet won’t have enough space for all the DNA data collected via covid test swabs, so no chance our government is collecting the data

I have 3 tests a week (2 are lateral flows that I do myself at home so no chance of DNA info being collected) couldn’t give a toss if my DNA details are stored somewhere

All his and his families medical history will be on their medical records already, and I’m sure when the Tories sell off the NHS the sale will include all medical records

I’m assuming it’ll be the latteral flow testing as they’re cheap and easy for workplaces (they cost less than a fiver in bulk). They’re cheap and quick (the result comes up in about a minute but you’re supposed to wait 30minutes to be sure). I take one every week plus every time I attend certain sites.

You jab the swab up your nose and wriggle it arround, wipe/squeeze it off into a vial of the solution, then two drops onto the test strip.

One line is good, 2 lines is positive. Exactly like a pregnancy test. The 2nd line is some measure of human DNA just to prove you wiped it hard enough.

If he’s that paranoid then there really isn’t any reason the test can’t be self administered (I do mine, then we send photos to a WhatsApp group).

There’s no more DNA theft/profiling going on than McDonald’s do with the paper straws after you bin them.

The science bit will be difficult to get I would imagine

However questions I would be asking are

1. Quite evidently this person doesn’t want the job they have got

2. If their job requires a COVID test then quite frankly if someone doesn’t have the self awareness on the reasoning, then they shouldn’t be in that job

3. Is this a person depressed/suffering anxiety? The mental health of this person needs addressing first not the science

Even if there was some conspiracy to harvest DNA what are the chances of this government/Serco actually managing to do it effectively? No 3 doesn’t sound that far fetched tbh but it’s not worth losing your job now vs some miniscule chance of not having health insurance if it ever becomes necessary.

There are some tips about dealing with conspiracy theorists and essentially you have to try and encourage their ‘curiosity’ which led them to ‘do their own research’ and point it towards more reliable sources. I think it’s a long process though.

He has to do PCR for return to work, then lateral flow every 3 days.

I agree with all this above, but I can’t not try, please anyone with science smarts, help me..

There are some tips about dealing with conspiracy theorists and essentially you have to try and encourage their ‘curiosity’ which led them to ‘do their own research’ and point it towards more reliable sources. I think it’s a long process though.

@grum this is exactly where I am going, so that I can help him find the right sources…

There’s no more DNA theft/profiling going on than McDonald’s do with the paper straws after you bin them.

That’s what they want you to think.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-55350794

How are the authorities going to record his DNA if he does one of those self tests mentioned above? I was told yesterday I can go and get a box of 7 as I’m a key worker.

As far as I’m aware, you don’t send it off anywhere.

He has clearly done a bit more than ‘lose the plot slightly’, and revealing the scale of his delusional behaviour to his employer probably provides them the motivation to get rid, and the excuse they need to do it.

Obviously, you have to feel very sorry for the family he’s taking down with him, and you as well, as you have been put in a very difficult position. If the prospect of unemployment hasn’t snapped him out of it, there’s little chance anything you say will, but well done for trying.

FWIW, PCR in this instance only looks for one thing. Not his DNA, but viral RNA, which it converts into DNA and ‘amplifies’, as you say, so its presence can be detected. It’s not interested in your overall genome, or how many X chromosomes you have. But none of that is going to help de-radicalise someone who has chosen to go into the rabbit hole. Like flat-earthers, they are impossible to argue against.

Good luck trying.

Ignoring the crazy but could they legally fire him for refusing a medical procedure?

Depends what sort of contract he’s on, I guess.

Not his DNA, but viral RNA,

How does it differentiate between Human DNA and viral RNA?

I’d not worry about them collecting DNA. The chip they insert through the tests gives them all the monitoring data they need.

Mrs D has to test at home. She does the test, simply logs whether it is +ve or -ve and then bins the kit. So unless the bin men are in cahoots with it all and have a database of who is self- testing, rummages through their rubbish bags etc then no one is collecting anything except for bins.

As others have said though, and trust me I’ve got once close friends who I have tried to help see through the nonsense they spout, to the extent they’ve lost friends, family and jobs, you’ve got next to zero chance and it’ll sadly end up just being a lesson in frustration.

TiRed off here would probably be a good person to give you legit info. Though your guy might think he’s a shill for the lizard people.

How does it differentiate between Human DNA and viral RNA?

There will be all kinds of fragments of RNA floating about in the swab sample. The process isolates these, turns them into DNA which can be tested to identify the organism they belong to, and then looks specifically for Covid. I suppose the same sample could be used to prove he was human, and would contain intact human DNA which could produce his full genome.

That’s the central problem, once you assume malicious intent, which he has, then yes, they could be harvesting his DNA for a central database. Most of us would think ‘and why the F would they do that?’ and move on, but his current paranoia means he believes that yes, they would. And it will be very difficult for you to convince him that the government are not out to get him.

Mrs D has to test at home. She does the test, simply logs whether it is +ve or -ve and then bins the kit.

It’s the initial PCR test which causes the issue, as, as far as I’m aware, that needs to go off to the lab.

The PCR test he has to take tomorrow, gets sent to a lab. This is his concern. This is what I am concentrating on finding something to show him that the test only extracts the viral RNA, and not his DNA.
He thinks the machine will go beep and then spit out in a dalek voice:
dalekmode/

DNA profile acquired, sending to national police and monitoring DB.
Male subject identified – must be rapist or murder.
Disease risk – alert insurance companies now
Engage 24hr monitoring and data collection on activities.

/dalekmode

TBH I have idly wondered if maybe he has done something shady and is concerned his DNA will end up being run against the police database.

There will be all kinds of fragments of RNA floating about in the swab sample. The process isolates these, turns them into DNA which can be tested to identify the organism they belong to

How?
Does it amplify all fragments and discard the ones it does not want?

TBH I have idly wondered if maybe he has done something shady and is concerned his DNA will end up being run against the police database.

You could use this. Tell him if the government were collecting DNA then they’ll be very suspicious of those who refuse to do the tests as they could be hiding something and therefore will be put on a watch list

The way the pcr works is that it only amplifies the targets they are looking for.
Sequence specific primers are used to target the replication. These primers will only bind to the areas of interest.
You could point out to him that sequencing is much more expensive than a simple pcr test and ask why the government would be wasting their money on someone unimportant like him

It is not a scientist he needs I’m afraid, it is a mental health professional. A visit to his GP would be a good start I think. This might also persuade his employer to take a more sympathetic view..

How?
Does it amplify all fragments and discard the ones it does not want?

It amplifies only the specific segments of interest (of the viral genome). Simple version – Part of the reaction setup process is to add very small segments (primers) which match exactly the viral genome and nothing else, these bind to the DNA in the reaction process and means that only these sections are amplified.
In the case of this particular test there are also probe sequences designed in the same way which give a fluorescence signal when the viral genome is amplified and which is detected by the instrument.
Complex version – lots more going on than that, but not really relevant for understanding.

edit

Graham and LS thank you.

Sequence specific primers

Google returns masses on this with regard to cv19. Thanks. This is what I need, just the right keywords to go and find some stuff out.

Any more?

A private company collecting that data would need to get permission from you to store it under the data protection act.

If found in violation it would cost a fortune.

You could use this. Tell him if the government were collecting DNA then they’ll be very suspicious of those who refuse to do the tests as they could be hiding something and therefore will be put on a watch list

Fighting conspiracy with conspiracy may be the only way to go. Or tell him that gargling a can of coke and taking a hayfever nasal spray 15 minutes prior to the test will degrade the sample.

Conspiracy theories aside, wouldn’t there be a constructive dismissal issue if an employee were sacked for something not in his contract?

I read a very entertaining description a while ago of how this works, which I’ll try and find, based on a fiction zip-copying machine. But essentially LS sums it up; only the fragments that you are looking for are amplified – if everything was amplified, then the signal-to-noise ratio would remain the same and analysis would be impossible.

OOh yes find it please.

…which I’ll try and find…

Success! Credit goes to poster ‘Ian’ on YACF:

It’s very basic chemistry – above 90 degrees hydrogen bonds come apart, below 70 degrees the come back together. That’s really it.

The standard metaphor for DNA is a zipper. So think of one. However, because it’s fashion, these zippers are made out of different styles of teeth (of which there are four, but they only fit together in complementary pairs, so the teeth on the left side of the zipper must complement those on the right or the zip won’t zip). Because of the pattern of these teeth in the final zip, there are a zillion different types.

You have an untidy pile of these different zips made in this way in your factory. The boss, because she’s the boss, wants you to tell her if you got a particular style of zip from the thousands you have in stock, and if you do, how many, and by the way, we have an order for a million of them. She wants everything by lunchtime.

OK, you have a prototype zip making machine and the design of the zip she wants. Your Big Zipper Manufacturing Machine makes copies of existing zips, but in a specific way, from the bottom up of the left zip and top down of the right zip. Because the sides of the zip are complementary, you can use the design in your prototype machine to make the snippet of zipper that matches both the bottom of the left and top of the right.

So you can go empty the pile of random zips into the BZMM, along with the starting snippets of zipper that match the style you want, and a pile of those individual teeth. Press the GO button.

The BZMM separates all the zips into individual left and right zips then it matches up those starting snippets. These only match the final style of zip you want. Once it’s done this, the BZMM then latches onto these starter zips and starts to build new complementary zips from those individual teeth, for the left, it assembles a matching right, and for the right, a matching left. The end result is that for every original of your desired style, you now have two.

The BZMM repeats this over and over, so from those two, you have four, then eight, and you’re exponentially manufacturing those zips (all the original styles of zips will still be there, but you’re not copying those). Because the boss specified bright red zips (it’s fashion, don’t argue), you fed the machine bright red teeth at the start. At any point, you can pull a bucket of zips out of the machine and count the red ones. With your calculator you can use the numbers of red zips at various times, and the speed the BZMM works, to calculate how many of the original zips you had in stock. Scribble this down for the boss, she asked.

In the meantime, the BZMM churns away, over and over, until you have a million red zips of the desired style. Because they’re red, the BZMM colour sorting feature boxes them all up.

It’s 11am, you’re done, so take a long coffee break, you earned it.

The BZMM is basically a PCR machine. The magic is done by the DNA polymerase, the core component that fits to the starter zip and adds new teeth. We all have DNA polymerase to copy our DNA, but someone had the bright idea that this would all go faster at higher temperatures, and well, the sort of organism that lives at high temperatures must have DNA polymerase that works at high temperatures (our DNA polymerase won’t). You can do all this at lower temperatures, but what you can do in under an hour would take several days.

re contract legalities, constructive dismissal etc.
These are all nuclear options but given the ability of this section of my relatives I not think these are things they could take on. Which means one thing. More work for muggins here, and I would rather have a few idle conversations over zoom with a whiskey in hand than spend lifetimes filling out forms and legal docs and trying to control what he says in public/social media etc.

The other comments about should he be at work, does he want to work etc, are all interesting things to read, but I can’t use or act on any of it.
Sure he probably is an irresponsible ****, but does that help my distraught relatives?

PHILLO – this is ace, cheers.

The problem isn’t the specific mechanics of the PCR test, @5plusn8. If you stick a swab into someone’s throat, it will have their DNA on it. The fact that the test isn’t interested in that, and discards it, is immaterial. If you believe that someone has nefarious intent, then you’ll also believe that they will take that DNA.

Martin I agree, but I have to pick at the thread somewhere, otherwise I’m going nowhere.
So its good to be aware of a possible train of thought for him via your comment, but I still have to go into battle over this.
His fear is based on his DNA going into a machine that can read his DNA, if I can work on that, with the excellent contributions above, I may be on to something.
It is about building his trust in the system.

Im afraid that no matter what you do here you probably wont be able to persuade your relative that there is some governmental “malicious intent” in collecting the swab.

As people above have said the CV-19 PCR looks for the RNA of the virus, changing the RNA into cDNA (complementary DNA, not his DNA) and amplifying the viral cDNA if it’s present. All a long way from human DNA collection for profiling and storage, but I’m not sure that will convince your relative

cDNA (complementary DNA, not his DNA)

More good keywords. Cheers.

Spooky_b329 answered the question already –

you don’t send it off anywhere

Even idiots can dispose of their tests without the Government DNA Harvesting Dept getting hold of the little vials

you don’t send it off anywhere

PCR TEST YES YOU DO!!

Remind him it could be worse, they could be trying to find out what he had for dinner two days ago.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14226455/china-anal-swabs-covid-mandatory/

YES YOU DO!!

Hmm, ok fair enough. Govt are laughing then.