Plus another myth of the Surrender Monkeys aka France. They had almost 40 Governments inbetween WWI and WWII. Alot of pissed off/demoralised citizens.

And also as a percentage of population they lost more than almost every other combatant nation in WW1 and were hesitant to throw away another generation. Same reason the British were, in American eyes, slow to attack and not keen to exploit advantages if it risked too many men.

My folks took in a lodger when I was but a youngster in the late 70’s. The chap in question was a lovely bloke, but drank to excess it has to be said. Why? – well the poor old boy was part of the 113th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, The Royal Artillery – this is what they wrote in Bergen-Belsen..
10,000 UNBURIED DEAD WERE FOUND HERE.
ANOTHER 13,000 HAVE SINCE DIED.
ALL OF THEM VICTIMS OF THE
GERMAN NEW ORDER IN EUROPE.
AND AN EXAMPLE OF NAZI KULTUR.”

Now he never spoke of it, and would walk out of the room if there was a war film on. I never got to grips with it until I saw a dramatised documentary a couple of years ago. I did know how bad things were for the Jews, having read fairly extensively about it, but knowing what the old chap had seen is a different matter – truly horrific.

@Winston_dog, I wasn’t aiming any comments specifically at you. I have had plenty of pub conversations where people are totally unaware how evil the USSR was.

There used to be a train of thought that Russian war crimes could be excused – or at least explained by the fact that the Germans had committed gross atrocities against Soviet citizens during their march eastwards.

Antony Beevor says that this simply does not explain the systematic crimes of the Russians as they then swept westwards as they committed them against Soviet citizens, non-Germans and anyone else they encountered. First hand experience of this was witnessed by allied POW’s whose camps were liberated by the Russians first.

One point I will make is that whilst the majority of Germans acknowledge their war crimes, and most Brits will acknowledge that we went too far bombing Dresden very few Russians today will acknowledge that the Soviet Army committed any war crimes at all. In their eyes the Red Army single handedly defeated Nazism and saved the world.

i met a little old lady on top of a hill and we sat there talking for an hour or more.

she had grown up on a farm near Munich. she said that it was common knowledge that people were being killed in Dachau. she even mentioned that school teachers would say “you will be sent to Dachau” if they were misbehaving.

alot is actually two words.

@aracer – the Soviets didn’t specifically have extermination camps like the Nazi’s but some of the Siberian labour camps were not far off – being sent to one was pretty much a death sentence and many people were sent to them because of their nationality, religiousness or political views.

she had grown up on a farm near Munich. she said that it was common knowledge that people were being killed in Dachau. she even mentioned that school teachers would say “you will be sent to Dachau” if they were misbehaving.

Dachau was a concentration camp for a long time and political prisoners were sent there rather than it being a death camp. EVERYONE in Germany knew about concentration camps for political prisoners, criminals and other socially undesirable people.

I think it is fair to say that the German population had an idea something was going on, but not the extent to which genocide was being committed. I suspect part of the reason for the latter was that they didn’t want to know, so perhaps you can add that to their culpability. But without wishing to excuse what the average Geramn knew I think it is easy to be sanctimonious from a modern perspective. Don’t forget that we have the benefit of hindsight. We know how evil Hitler was. Also don’t forget that we live in a largely free society, yet even now we are collectively able to turn a blind eye to unfortunate facts which we may be aware of , but are unwilling to change. So, if you consider the nature of the regime they lived under taken together with the trauma that had been (self?)-inflicted on German society in the early years of the twentieth century, I am not sure that we can be quite so judgemental as all that when looking at the German civil population. I’m not sure that we are capable of behaving much better even now.

the Soviets didn’t specifically have extermination camps like the Nazi’s but some of the Siberian labour camps were not far off

Not to mention atrocities like Katyn.

One point I will make is that whilst the majority of Germans acknowledge their war crimes

Surely there are few, if any, Germans left responsible for war crimes?

Personally, I see little value in trying to judge the German people as a whole. Clearly all societies have people who could commit those crimes without conscience and the Nazis would have made use of that. I think it was alluded to above, but Stalin murdered more than the Nazis did, yet I have never seen the same level of inquiry directed at the Russian people.

I am also not sure how I would behave if I was in that scenario. If I was aware of atrocities being committed, would I risk myself or my families lives, in the face of what must have seemed impossible odds? I fear not, but who can say. Many thousands of Germans were executed trying to help, and rightly they were lauded as heroic. It does not logically follow that those who did not help should be vilified. Perhaps they were terrified, as I am sure I would have been.

Looking up the numbers, total German deaths are listed as 7-9000000 people, in comparison to around 450000 in the UK. It seems to me that the German people suffered a great deal more than we did.

@RichPenny – I was talking collectively about the Germans and Russians as a people rather than as individuals.

In any case referring back to the OP’s question, it must have been obvious to themselves that they were the baddies;

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ToKcmnrE5oY[/video]

I know you were, I was being slightly disingenuous. I see no value whatsoever in expecting a people to acknowledge war crimes committed by other people

I think you misunderstand the point I am trying to make (probably badly) which is; a people who do not acknowledge their countries previous mistakes are perhaps doomed to repeat them.

I’m not suggesting that Putin or any other Russian should stand up and apologies for crimes committed by the Soviet armed forces in WW2 or even for a German teenager to feel they should apologise for the crimes of the SS. But if they refuse to acknowledge that the political systems in place led to these events, and that these events actually occurred then there is a greater chance of these political ideologies once again making an appearance should the socio-economic situation allow for it.

There is very little chance of this happening in the UK but in other European countries I am not so sure.

There used to be a train of thought that Russian war crimes could be excused – or at least explained by the fact that the Germans had committed gross atrocities against Soviet citizens during their march eastwards.

Good post. They committed atrocities against the Chinese citizens of Manchuria as well, there is no way in hell the Russian atrocities can be blamed on the Germans. After the Katyn massacre any official grief about what the Russians suffered during the German invasion just seems like crocodile tears.

Had Germany never gone to war with Russia, I’d place a bet on the Russians rolling tanks through Eastern Europe in 1943-1955 anyway.

I was going to comment on this, but I think imnotverygood summed it up perfectly. I think we often forget the fact there was no Internet in those days, and mass media was still quite restricted. I suspect most Germans knew something bad was happening, but were in a state of denial mixed with a fear of speaking out in case something similar happened to them or their families.

It’s easy to look back and be ultra critical. I suspect living with the reality of it all was something very different, something that we are very lucky not to have to ever experience. That isn’t too excuse evil, but equally I don’t think we should be too quick to judge ordinary Germans without having been in their position.

Russian atrocities during wwii are well documented including mass persecution of the Jews.

And hora, with all due respect suggesting that someone’s aunt should have left Germany really is a bit simplistic. My family are German/Jewish. A number of whom were killed in the concentration camps. My grandfather did manage to leave in 1935. But with great difficulty.

Kennyp a great post but dont forget one drawback in our era we dont interact or talk. We sit on media- aka one dimensional to a degree. People talked/interacted/there were active communities.

Alot of the internet is conspiracy/theories etc. Konabunny step forward.

The Jews werent evil dragons, they were friends even family.

The ‘it was a different era’ just doesnt wash. My parents let me disapear for hours <10yrs in the 70s. Yet my best friends parents were normal/’todays’ standards.

People knew but they were caught up in the sheep-effect. Following the crowd or scared not to conform. Many many Germans left Germany in the 30’s for a life in America. Those that stayed were too scared to talk up or joined those in new camps?

People knew but they were caught up in the sheep-effect.

I suspect people knew but equally didn’t know, or rather chose not to know. Mentally blanked out what deep down I suspect they were all too aware of. I suspect they knew something bad was happening to the Jews, but maybe not quite how utterly evil the reality was. And even if they they suspected something bad, they were in a near impossible position whereby to speak out would mean death for them and their family.

No doubt there was a lot of hatred of the Jews, but with no Internet and propaganda rife it was probably all too easy to go with the flow, even if deep down they instinctively knew it was wrong, and horribly wrong.

I should also add I’ve no great knowledge of the period, only what I’ve read I a few books. I’m quite happy to be corrected by people who lived through, or had family who lived through, those days. I’m just very relieved I’ve never had to experience anything even close to it.

No doubt there was a lot of hatred of the Jews, but with no Internet and propaganda rife it was probably all too easy to go with the flow, even if deep down they instinctively knew it was wrong, and horribly wrong.

Combine the dire economic circumstances in Germany post WW1, a lingering distrust of the Jews (which is 100s of years old), then add a master social manipulator to the mix, Joespeh Goebbels, who was very good at his job and it’s fairly easy to see how quickly society turned against the Jews.

Even our current government uses Goebbels techniques with the scapegoating of the unempoyed / disabled to distract the middle classes from lack of growth in the economy.

Errr. Bit simplistic there Hora.. Don’t forget the genocide didn’t start until the middle of WW2 & so moving somewhere more congenial at the time might have been a little tricky… Before that, you would still need to find a country which would take you, and that might not be easy if you were not actually a refugee. Also don’t forget that anti-semitism was pretty rife at the time. The Nazis were extreme but not completely unusual in that respect. If you read literature from the early twentieth/late nineteenth centuries, the equation of Jews with grasping usury is not uncommon. Besides, if you were making a principled stand on the basis of racism where would you go? Britain with its vast Empire? The U.S.? Maybe you could settle in Alabama or somewhere else in the Deep South. I don’t think the option of moving is as clear cut as you make out.

There is a lot already written on the subject – maybe it worth reading that stuff to get informed and well research background info.

Having lived in Germany for 18 months – the Germans are very aware of what their grandparents did. They are highly embarrassed by the legacy it has given them. Despite ill informed view points in the UK, they are well educated and well structured. They don’t try and ignore the past -but after 60 plus years , they do feel value in moving on.

This doesn’t mean that the far right doesn’t still exist – go to Rostock and parts of the old East, there are still sympathies. As there is in Bavaria. But the vast majority of the population are liberal and forward thinking.

Did the people in general know during the Third Reich what was going on. Yes – of course they did. Sachenhausen is just out side of the main town, Dachau is a suburb of Munich ( thought it’s purpose wasn’t as a death camp). At the time many people in Grermany support Hitler because of the mess and the humiliation Germany was left in after the war. As did many Austrians, Dutch, French and members of the UK Royal Family.

But there is plenty of great stuff written about.
Be aware that the winners very rarely see their actions as being war crimes – but the Germans certainly feel that the targeting of civilians a Dresden was one.
Churchill sending the Cossacks back to Stalin at Yalta was another …

But none of this stopped race hate in Rwanda, the Balkans and the Killing Fields …

My youngest son has just come back from a school trip to see Wannasee, Auschwitz and Berkenau – the sheer scale and matter of fact nature of it all has had a profound effect. He’s only 15 but cannot comprehend how industrial murder could be carried out in secret as there were far too many people involved in it’s organisation and implementation.

I think you misunderstand the point I am trying to make (probably badly) which is; a people who do not acknowledge their countries previous mistakes are perhaps doomed to repeat them.

Sorry, I just don’t agree with you. For me it is irrelevant which particular country perpetrated these atrocities. Rather, we should all be aware of the horrors that mankind can inflict on one another. Indeed, it is dangerous to assume as you have that these events could not possibly have occurred in the UK, and there is minimal risk here. Look back in history and you will see many examples of the British invading other countries and seeking to impose their will. Does that strike you as so very different to what we have done in the Middle East?

Goebbels, who was very good at his job and it’s fairly easy to see how quickly society turned against the Jews.

Even our current government uses Goebbels techniques with the scapegoating of the unemployed / disabled to distract the middle classes from lack of growth in the economy. ”

very true, the current government has used there friends in the media
to convince the public that disabled people are the same as unemployed people
who avoid getting jobs because they are lazy.

people in the UK have been conditioned to not blink when they hear of
the disgusting treatment of the sick a the dyeing like sending a letter
to a person dyeing of cancer to tell them there disability support payments have been stopped
because they are fit for work.

but the xfactor is on an I’m alright jack so its does not affect me,
thats how most folk see the world, until something bad happens to them,
then they cry the loudest

in the mind management book by a leading psychiatrist Dr steven peters called the chimp paradox Dr peters states “Nobody likes a victim”

when you hear of the centre ground you should realise that left wing right wing liberal an all of the izms socialism fascism liberalism are much the same
left wing right wing same bird in the middle

austerity means poverty history repeats because its been made too
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/council-cuts-britains-ten-poorest-3091450

Goebbels an Hitler learnt a lot from the UK an USA, propaganda and eugenics were used to great effect a long time before the Nazi war machine existed

I know you were, I was being slightly disingenuous. I see no value whatsoever in expecting a people to acknowledge war crimes committed by other people

I see it as quite the contrary. Saying that the war crimes were committed by “other people” or “another time” and bear no relation to you or your nation is dangerous as it fails to acknowledge the involvement of ordinary people, some of whom you were almost certainly related to. A guy who works for me had a grandfather in the German paratroops in the war. An undoubtedly brave man who fought in Crete and at Stalingrad but my colleague just talks about his grandfather’s views (held until he died) about the war and jews as some sort of amusing historical anecdote. Lazy thinking like this enables sleepwalking into other situations. A lack of a real accounting for the atrocities committed by Germany in WW1 certainly didn’t help senior officers and senior nazis learn there are consequences for excess.

@Richpenny read atlaz post and think about it.

If you go to some UK based far right website you will find on some of them complete guff posted stating that it was UK warmongers who started WW2, that Hitler was provoked into invading poland and that the holocaust just did not happen how the history books state it did.

To get to that you have to fail to acknowledge that history happened. I think we are actually close to arguing in agreement as you clearly think people globally should acknowledge what went on but you don’t think an country should. Surely if all people are to acknowledge the evils of the past it must a good place to start would be the homeland of the perpetrators, no?

With regards to comparing the British Empire of old with modern interventions; I think we should save it for another thread…

A german exchange student stayed with us 3 years ago, and told my daughter that the extermination of jews by the germams was not true, ans was made up by the allies to discredit the germans.
Unbelievable

I work for a large German multinational, and work in Germany frequently and I have not once come across this. know most of my colleagues well enough socially to pick up any hint of it too.

I used to work for a Dutch company and one of my colleagues was German. It was a few years ago, I guess he’ll be early forties now. He once cracked a joke about concentration camps. I doubt if he’ll do it again after the reaction he got from me and a Dutch chap.