I have found myself intrigued by the relatively recent trend towards high pivot bikes and as my bike is coming up to 3 years’ old, my thoughts are turning to its replacement. My current bike is a 2019 Giant Trance 1, a 27.5mm-wheeled trail bike retro fitted with a 160mm Fox Factory 36 replacing the original 150mm Fox Performance Elite 36. My current riding is principally SE based so mainly Surrey Hills but with trips to Wales and FOD and usually 1 or 2 Scottish ventures including some big mountain days. For all of this the Trance has been a great tool but a demo of the Deviate Highlander (their 140 model) while at Ard Rock took me by surprise at how much better it was. True it is also a full 29er but its descending ability over rough terrain was a different world and I was unsure how much this has to do with the high pivot rear susoension setup or the 29er wheel size. Whichever, it was highly impressive.

I am now weighing up 3 potential bikes – the Deviate Highlander 150, the Forbidden Druid and the Forbidden Dreadnought.

Pros for the Deviate are its Scottish manufacture, their reputation for great customer service, that I have actually demoed one and all reviews seem positive on it. Cons – it is frame only so I would need to get spec together for the rest of it and am not really confident doing that. I can’t think of any other cons really.

Pros for the Forbidden bikes are they similarly seem only to get positive reviews. My hesitation is that the Druid seems it may be a backward step to lose 10mm of rear travel to my current bike and the Dreadnought seems a bit of an overbike for my needs.

Cons of all 3 – do I really need a new bike at all and if yes to this, is high pivot the way to go when there are so many other great bikes out there?

Any real world users’ views welcomed?

Deviate are a Scottish brand, they don’t manufacture in Scotland. They are great at CS though, and I’d bet would talk you through specking one up. If not JMJ designs in Cornwall can do that for you, as well as a custom paint job

I’m sold on High pivot with an idler, have a Highlander and a Guide. Descending is amazing, and climb ok too. I’ve not had any issues with the idler, with extra drag, noise or maintenance, but I know it’s a concern for some.

Can you try a mate’s 29er to try to get a benchmark and try to separate the high pivot from the big wheels, in terms of the ride feel you enjoyed?

I have a Druid – it’s as much bike as I need including riding (up to black but not double black) DH trails in BC. I don’t think you’d notice going down 10mm of travel as the high pivots tend to feel like they have a bit more travel than they’ve got.

Definintely worth trying to seperate the big wheel and high pivot parts as suggested above. I’ve recently found that my 29er hardtail will actually roll over some types of ground better than my 650b 160mm travel bike – it’s making me do all kinds of mental gynmastics. Then of course there are (many) times that the full-sus bike monsters the hardtail instead

be aware of the Forbidden crush zone requiring all sorts of bodges to stop damage to seat post and swing arm.

bruneep
Full Member

be aware of the Forbidden crush zone requiring all sorts of bodges to stop damage to seat post and swing arm.

A bodge is available, you’ll have to import it though

Jank Moto Foam Kit for Forbidden Druid/Dreadnought

Deviate will build you a full bike, but you’d have to collect it from them in Stirling.

so I would need to get spec together for the rest of it and am not really confident doing that.

That’s what we’re all here for. 🙂

Seriously though, what worries you in terms of speccing a bike?

think you can get from forbidden for free now, despite them saying there was no issue when riders were complaining of damage  🤔

Deviate will build you a full bike, but you’d have to collect it from them in Stirling.

Or mike at https://20twentystore.com/pages/deviate-highlander  will sort you out

bruneep
Full Member

think you can get from forbidden for free now, despite them saying there was no issue when riders were complaining of damage 🤔

I suppose thats kinda good….. in the same way they changed their minds about warrantying frames where the loose shock bolt had led to damage. Not sure i’d be willing to send Forbidden my money over the likes of Deviate or Norco (never thought I’d see myself write that)

I tried the Deviate, but really wasn’t impressed for a few reasons. It actually put me off trying another HP bike at the time. Then tried a Druid (with a decent shock) & was a big difference, but just wanted something a bit bigger & a big less trail bike, now I have a Dreadnought.

be aware of the Forbidden crush zone requiring all sorts of bodges to stop damage to seat post and swing arm

Not really a ‘bodge’ but Jank were selling something which made it a non issue & now Forbidden are offering a free bigger guard, with an extension to make it a non issue. I at the time did something similar & it’s been a non issue. Never had any bolt related issues, and I checked it when I built it up, and do fairly regularly anyway.

Out of the Forbidden options, I would say the Druid might be the better choice. The Dreadnought is a big bike (the medium is bigger than the large Highlander in some areas) & it really shines on the roughest, nastiest trails you can find & ride. I am yet to ride a bike that manages to eat the rough stuff like it, but if you want to boost off every lip, root, bump, etc, then it’s probably not the bike for you. It wants to straight up go as fast as possible, which does polarise opinions, but it suits me as that’s how I ride.

That’s not to say it won’t jump (it does), it needs a little more body english to manual, but they are trade offs to me for how well it rides in other areas.

The Deviate was a straight no for me, and the issues supposedly the Norco has with the lower link means it wouldn’t be a consideration either.

As for general HP riding, other than a little bit of noise on the idler when pedalling, I couldn’t really tell you if it pedalled worse than my previous similar intentioned bikes or not.

I wouldn’t read too much into the -10mm of travel especially at the rear of a bike. Different kinematics of difference systems mean they can feel very different meaning not all travel is the same. One bike’s 140mm might feel more plush than another 160mm.

Geometry of the bike also has a big factor on how the bike feels and rides as does different wheel sizes.

I would try and demo another bike or two to see if the bikes you tried were particularly exceptional or just par for the course.

I tried the Deviate, but really wasn’t impressed for a few reasons

me neither

Not really a ‘bodge’

yes it is owners were doing this with moto foam and aquarium foam to prevent frame damage  and forbidden refused to accept there was and issue with debris getting trapped and damaging frame.

@Hob-Nob @bruneep please if you want, could you elaborate on what you didn’t like with the Deviate?

Thanks for the range of views. Honing in on a choice between the Druid or the Deviate now.

The new Cannondale Jekyll is doing the same with the high pivot, and probably available a lot quicker and easier to find a demo, worth a shout?

@greencroft sent you a msg

Why cryptic? I’m sure there are plenty of others (like myself) that would be interested

In True STW fashion in recommending what you ride 🤗

My experience, I took a Hope HB160 and Forbidden Druid out for back to back test rides at Bike Treks at Grizedale.

Before the test ride, as a proud Lancastrian, my heart was set on the Hope which I took out first in the morning on a 6 mile loop. Not bad I thought, this could be the one for me, certainly a step up from my 26” Nomad.

I then jumped on the Druid, and immediately was impressed, it felt plush but climbed really well especially on techy rocky climbs. Point it downhill and it it flew, especially through rocky sections on the same 6 mile loop.

Anyway, couldn’t resist and the deal was sone that day on a Druid XT spec, I have had it since July and not regretted the decision at all.

Strange sensation as you often feel the square edge hit through the fork but the rear just seems to float over it – certainly feels as though it has way more travel than 130mm, really important though to play around and follow online advice to get the shock set up in its sweet spot.

As for customer service, in my experience forbidden have been great, I have only approached them for the odd bit of technical advice, but they are always quick to respond and very friendly, lots of informative videos on their website about maintenance etc as well.

There is a good forum page on MTBR dedicated where you can pick up some good tips. Anyway probably best to try and get a test ride to see for yourself, you would likely get to test the dreadnought and Druid back to back at Biketreks if you are within commuting distance.

On nsmb .com there is a Druid review plus review of a CC link which ups the travel on the Druid if needed. That might be an option if 130mm feels wanting. Good luck

MTB fashion is funny. People want high pivot bikes because they are plush. Then they want mullets which don’t roll over the terrain as well. May as well just ride a 29er with normal suspension 😉

I’ve owned a couple of high pivot bikes. A Trek Session 10 many years ago. And another bike this year (27.5 wheels). The most recent bike certainly ate up chunder with the back brake on. I’d put some of that down to the decent coil shock. I’ve gone back to a normal 29er with a little less travel and sure it’s not quite as plush, but in the real world it doesn’t really matter.
Personally I’d ignore the HP hype and look for spec and characteristics that matter more unless you are super fussy over your rear suspension design.

Edit – people often say that HP rear suspension seriously outshines the fork (like above), but is that a good thing? Shouldn’t a full suspension bike feel balanced? That was my biggest issue with my last bike. The rear suspension felt great, but the fork (Zeb R) was terrible. The bike would have been better with conventional rear suspension, and the money saved there could have gone into a damper that had some compression damping. Hardtails prove that front suspension is more important than the rear 😉

I think @Hob-Nob @bruneep had issues with known seal drag, that was fixed with replacing the twin lip wipers with single lip.

New bike day*

Got my Highlander from Mike @20Twenty bike and have only good things to say about Mike.

So the high pivot bikes are sensitive to shock tunes, as per this mbr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcjX51NDjHU&ab_channel=MountainBikeRider …..I demo’d mine on the 140link with a Fox X2 and it felt good and subsequently bought it with the 150 and a Super deluxe coil. The stock RS tune M/M tune was horrible, chattery mess. These bikes dont like heavily damped and need a fast rebound.

If you get the suspension tuned properly they do make mince meat of the rough, even though its ‘only 150mm’ it can still feel like a lot of bike and make easier trails feel a bit dull. (heaven knows what that Dreadnought feels like).

Any other questions?

had issues with known seal drag

That along with other issues that were denied were an issue when I raised my concerns.

I borrowed a Highlander for a day in Malaga last year. Absolutely loved it out there on those steppy/rocky/loose trails. Tried it again in the FoD and wasn’t so impressed. Both times comparing it to my V1 RipMo.

Obviously not as much experience as ^^^ who have bought one, but it felt draggy climbing back to back with my RipMo and while the rear suspension is great, it didn’t feel as stand out as it had in Malaga.

I wouldn’t worry about the pivot placement. There are so many factors that make any given bike build feel good or bad in different areas, just test and buy (or don’t).

Strange sensation as you often feel the square edge hit through the fork but the rear just seems to float over it

I can achieve that on a 2019 Enduro with a coil and FSR. It doesn’t necessarily need a HP rear. (and on the font with an Ohlins coil fork for that matter)

OP, I think bike design has come on leaps and bounds and there’s decent and sorted  suspension designs that will suit all types of rider preference. You’ve ridden a really nice bike, but if you’re looking to spend a fair wodge of cash, I’d try some other types, you may prefer something different.

I think @Hob-Nob @bruneep had issues with known seal drag, that was fixed with replacing the twin lip wipers with single lip.

Honestly, I don’t know what the issue was – I’m quite fussy with my setup but I couldn’t get it even close to feeling like something I was confident in pushing.

The only way I could describe it was a bike that felt too much as a trail bike, but then not enough as a bigger bike, kind of didn’t do anything well.

There are others in that middle ground that are better IMO (not high pivot idler bikes).

That along with other issues that were denied were an issue when I raised my concerns.

And they were…?

My initial FOMO is quickly becoming FOJI (fear of joining in)!

But great to hear the range of experiences and opinions – thank you to all contributors.

That MBR YouTube comparison review that @dumbbot linked to was very detailed and interesting.

I gather seal drag issues on the Deviate such as they were have been resolved. I am swinging towards this as my choice so will now check with them what the realistic lead time for one may be.

My 10p worth @greencroft – I’ve owned various HP bikes and currently ride a Highlander 140.

The HP layout is fantastic IMO (like Tomhoward noted) and I’m sold on the concept. The highlander is well made and the bearings / hardware really does last well; longevity has really been give due consideration. They are nice guys and back up is first class.

The bike is more trail then enduro and for me the right balance providing ado-it-all bike well suited to UK riding. The main point is the HP design – and this is where the Highlander really excels. Set up is critical and I’d note I dont feel the need an overly damped shock. This is also apparent in finding the settings whereby the fork and rear end feel matched. If you do get one, do an uplift day or two and really mess about with the settings. That helps on any bike, but this one in particular.

Everyone talks about the square edge hits but to add to those points, I also find the HP design really helps on the off camber sections; rooty tricky lines that you want to stay high on – this bike is notably better then anything else I’ve ridden in that regard.

Maybe it is just me but after spending time on the highlander and druid I just seem to burn out quicker on long rides. Quicker than on say a full steel moxie with a beefy build or a ripmo AF. Definitely would not do the ews100 on it. IMO.

One to consider is the new Contra bikes frame. I ride occasionally with Evan so have had a quick pedal on it, it’s very impressive (if only he didn’t run his brakes the “wrong” way round I’d have a longer ride).
https://www.instagram.com/contrabikes/

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/tested-how-much-slower-are-idler-bikes-when-climbing.html

According to pinkbikes testing, 2% less efficient.

Like any suspension platform I suppose it has it benefits and drawbacks, you just have to work out if the ride characteristics are worth the entry fee.

I feel that these companies selling HP bikes are not doing themselves and their customers any favours by shipping the bikes with totally inappropriate shocks and expecting them to work to their full potential.

Can’t overstate the importance of getting a proper shock tune for these things to work,…I was noticeably quicker overnight,(and I’m slow).

I think the reality is everybody has an opinion but there are very few bad bikes out there in this price range, regardless of where the pivot is. Best to get out and try a few to see which floats your boat for your type and style of riding.

bruneep
Full Member
had issues with known seal drag

That along with other issues that were denied were an issue when I raised my concerns.

Ive had a highlander for about 18 months and ridden it all over scotland. Mainly Dunkeld, the golfie and ballo. Its given me absolutely no problems in that time. Its by far the best bike i have ever owned. Climbs well, descends even better. Maybe im just lucky but i don’t think so.

And what’s the deal with being so cryptic. You had issues which nobody is disputing. Why not just say what they were.

You had issues which nobody is disputing

A few faniboi’s here would say otherwise, it’s all been said before on here search for it.

anyhoo

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3185676/

This?

bruneep
Full Member

I had lots of issues with the demo bike I had, very stiff linkages and stiff idler wheel.

Been told

“after some investigating they found some issues with demo bikes (and a few other bikes) due to the sealing and bearing pre-load configuration.”

Not seeing the exciting info or is there more to it?

Bruneep, why should i search for it. Just say what your issues were. And like i said. Ive had not a single issue in 18 months of hard riding. The bike just keeps on working well. Got a free set of seals i didnt ask for as some people reported issues with theirs. Not really a sign of a company that just leaves you high and dry when things go wrong. So i possibly could be a fanboy but i think i have good reason to be.