I just felt left out and wanted to join in without actually having to state an opinion 😉

Eye – that Scottish chappieeee pmsl

Solid core cables as opposed to twisted core cables I can also see the point of and I've experienced the difference. There are good physical explanations as to why there is a difference.

There are good physical explanations for all sorts of factors that could push a cable up to a few hundred pounds. I've alluded to some of them above.

Seriously though, ditch the 3,5,7 speaker surround for music and switch back to a 2 system set up, one for music (stereo) and one for TV, Movies etc.

Yeah well that generates tons of clutter and miles of wire in your room. Not ideal.

Ti29er – Member

OK.
I retract the HALFORD'S slurr.
But the analogy is close.
Music in the car. Luddites!

The analogy is rubbish. There's a measurable difference between a Jones an a Halfords special. Even the difference between a cheap and expensive wine is measurable. The output from an adequate speaker cable and an expensive one isn't.

This is the funniest thread i have ever read on STW. I can honestly say its cheered me up today! Thanks everyone its been great entertainment!
(i'm not saying i know the answer….I don't but I can guess!)

Boils down to people trying to tell other people that what they have experienced is wrong.

"It's a crap song/painting/film. Of course it is, any fool knows that!"

Boils down to people trying to tell other people that what they have experienced is wrong.

Did you read any of the studies people posted where they did double blind tests?

OK, I would like to expand the post above a little:

There's a measurable difference between a Jones an a Halfords special.

There are lots of measurable differences. And some unmeasurable ones. Some would hold the Halfords special to be superior.

Even the difference between a cheap and expensive wine is measurable.

What are the purposes of a bottle of wine? Many differences are measurable, which are relevant?

The output from an adequate speaker cable and an expensive one isn't.

What are you measuring?

enhance your listening pleasure – send your cables here……
What would appear to be a snake oil offering, but the results come with a scientific (molecular level) explanation, as well as 'popular press' approval………
Used to be an account of mine when I worked for BOC, we supplied the liquid nitrogen…. never did get round to sending my spare runs of QED silver in to 'take a bath'…. sometimes wish i had…

Just adding an extra dimension to discussions….. 😀

1st essential Hi-Fi upgrade.

Boils down to people trying to tell other people that they hear stuff that has no relationship to the science behind it.

Jeez, can't believe you bunch are still at it…

I get the feeling that the "nay-sayers" here are relying on the unmeasurability factor (the science) without actually having had the experience of listening to a high-end stereo music Hifi system

You'd be wrong, then. I have a nice stereo. I've listened to (and have owned) even nicer ones in the past. I've never heard cables make a difference to the sound quality.

The "unmeasurability factor" you refer to is a figment of your imagination. An audible difference is sound quality is the claim of many of these snake oil merchants. As I said before, all you need to do to convince me is find me listeners who can tell the difference (under controlled conditions) between different cables, when they don't know which cable is being used. It's a perfectly reasonable request – wine tasters often do blind tastings, for example.

DIRECTIONALITY: I'm rapidly reaching the conclusion that it may well be the placebo effect, rather than imagination (a thin line, perhaps). Nevertheless, it seems real, as in: I can hear a difference – the "right" way round just feels more musical.

I thought the response from NAIM, wherein they described the process of establishing directionality as getting "Roy" to listen to random lengths of cable was interesting.

If HE is experiencing the placebo effect, then it's an even deeper hall of mirrors.

Also, given the rest of their science-based design and production, a bit odd to say the least.

😯

DIFFERENT CABLES: I've actually done this in the past. Using a quality, but budget system (Thorens TT/Ortofon cart/A&R A30 amp/MShort Speakers), I cabled up with "QED" cable first, then bog standard mains cable second. The difference, I assure you, was obvious and completely non-subtle. A visual metaphor would be – can you tell the difference between a Warhol and a Gainsborough… so obvious, I should think anybody could hear it.

Not trying to start the argument up again like, just relaying my experience..

"I'm rapidly reaching the conclusion that it may well be the placebo effect, rather than imagination (a thin line, perhaps). Nevertheless, it seems real, as in: I can hear a difference."

I believe that you honestly believe you can hear a difference. But then, most people's religious faith is sincerely held.

Hmmm. Indeed. Although I'd like to hear from any of the faithfull that meeting Jesus was just a hallucination!

I can't really be bothered to read through the whole thread, but has any one asked whether the internal components of the system are of the same qaulity as the fancy leads? I was always under the impression that the sound qaulity could not be improved beyond the weekest link in the chain, so amazing leads would not improve my system. I've had it all to bits before and there was nought in it that looked like it was made of gold or platinum etc, so i got some 10 quid ones from richersounds.

I've actually done this in the past. Using a quality, but budget system (Thorens TT/Ortofon cart/A&R A30 amp/MShort Speakers), I cabled up with "QED" cable first, then bog standard mains cable second. The difference, I assure you, was obvious and completely non-subtle.

So you knew which cable you were listening to? It's that placebo effect again. The placebo effect is very real and very well understood. It's precisely why tests should be 'blind'.

A visual metaphor would be – can you tell the difference between a Warhol and a Gainsborough… so obvious, I should think anybody could hear it.

And yet in this double-blind ABX test it was found that listeners could not hear a difference: http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

Yes. I find that odd. I'd like to take part in one of these things myself. I'm confident that I could hear the difference. Perhaps I'm wired (sorry) differently?

And back to the original question, directionality…

Has anyone yet come up with a rational explanation for how 'directionality' improves signal performance with an AC signal. Sound does not flow one-way down the cable from amp to speaker. An signal is passed by alternating current whereby all the little electrons dance one way for a bit, then they dance the other way for a bit, then back, then forward and so on. Any 'directional' property that helps the electrons dance one way but hinders them returning must[/i] degrade the signal, not preserve or improve it.

I find that odd. I'd like to take part in one of these things myself. I'm confident that I could hear the difference. Perhaps I'm wired (sorry) differently?

See the detail of a previous test I posted on here about hearing a difference between systems with 'normal' and Kimber power leads. The listeners all completed a pre-test questionnaire. Thos ewho scored them selves highly as either 'Audiophile' or 'Likely to hear a difference' performed exactly the same as the rest of the group, i.e. they could not detect a difference.

I'm confident that I could hear the difference. Perhaps I'm wired (sorry) differently?

If you hear a knock at the door today, it'll be Richard Dawkins coming to tear up your Rationalist's Club members card.

Kimber power leads. The listeners all completed a pre-test questionnaire. Thos ewho scored them selves highly as either 'Audiophile' or 'Likely to hear a difference' performed exactly the same as the rest of the group, i.e. they could not detect a difference.

Sure. I don't doubt that. I'd still like to undergo the process, however…

I feel the quicksand of another argument coming up however – if it turns out that my experience is different due to something about my physical or psychological make-up being different (previous statements about blind tests notwithstanding), then I think that's perfectly rational.

As Richard once said in reply to the question "What if you died and met god?" –

"Well I'm sure we could sit down and have a nice scientific conversation about it and test how god fits into our understanding of a quantum universe"…

I feel the quicksand of another argument coming up however – if it turns out that my experience is different due to something about my physical or psychological make-up being different (previous statements about blind tests notwithstanding), then I think that's perfectly rational.

Yeah, you're one of the special people, chosen by God to have magical hearing abilities – well above and beyond normal audiophiles.

You're assuming that your experience is different. As Higs points out, you have no proof of this and there is nothing about your experience that can't be explained by the placebo effect.

Mr Agreeable – Member

You're assuming that your experience is different. As Higs points out, you have no proof of this and there is nothing about your experience that can't be explained by the placebo effect.

Well then – that's rational.

Yeah, you're one of the special people, chosen by God to have magical hearing abilities – well above and beyond normal audiophiles.

Right. OK then, I'd hoped for a reasonable discussion but I see that the attack tendency has re-emerged so I'm quitting it.

🙄

As your local deity I think some of you are delusional. 😈

Right. OK then, I'd hoped for a reasonable discussion but I see that the attack tendency has re-emerged so I'm quitting it.

Very sensitive now aren't we? Funny, I didn't see your sensitive side in all the atheism debates. 😉

A perennial New Scientist Feedback favourite:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926662.400-feedback.html

PMSL 🙂

"A caution to people buying these: if you do not follow the 'directional markings' on the cables, your music will play backwards."

Guffaw.

While we're at it… anyone got a view on 'high quality' digital interconnects? I know I do.

To be fair to whoppit… for a brief minute… the Placebo effect IS real. Fundamentally, despite anyone's thinking that the placebo effect is the result of ignorance and unwillngness to actually open your mind to the truth of a system, the result of a patient taking a placebo drug is quite measurably that they get better as a direct result of believing the placebo is something that will benefit them. In that regard if Whoppit perceives a difference from using directional cables in his audio setup then I'm quite happy to accept that he is getting value from his purchase.

It's the crooks who know that their products are placebos who then sell them pretending there is an actual physical mechanism for them being better products who I get rather grumpy about. They are exploiting the susceptability of customers to suggestion. And in fact I actually wouldn't mind quite as much even in that case if they didn't pretend that their unique products deserved a completely ridiculous price tag that in no way reflects the process and costs of production.

But then the irony is that it is likely that the placebo effect is reliant on the end users subconsciou belief that the the product would only be that expensive if it really did work. It's all a bit frustratingly circular but it is testament to the genuine wonder that is the placebo effect.

In many ways I'm a poorer person because my acceptance and understanding of the placebo effect coupled with my general sceptical position means there are probably many experiences in life that are closed off to me.. being able to hear a difference due to directional cables being one of them.
Ignorance really is bliss it would seem 🙂

Yup it certainly is real and I'm not immune to it – just think you should recognise it for what it is.

I record/produce music as part of what I do for a living, and there has been occasions where both me and other experienced musicians/engineers have been mixing something, and tweaked some eq or compression settings, thinking that we heard an improvement/change – then realised that we were actually messing with settings for the wrong channel and what we were doing was having no effect at all. 😆

In.

So it could well be a real placebo effect, then. Seems credible. Lucky me.

By the way the NAIM placebo that I use is cheap compared to the likes of Nordost et al at just £15.0 a metre…

Out.

Oh yeah, and sounds better…

to you.

The Mighty Higs – Member

to you.

Well yes, of course "to me". Haven't we covered that? Exhaustively? For God's sake don't start all that up again…

Did I say "for God's sake"?

Oops. Silly me.

😯

Haven't we covered that? Exhaustively?

Yes.
Yes.

It's the crooks who know that their products are placebos who then sell them pretending there is an actual physical mechanism for them being better products who I get rather grumpy about. They are exploiting the susceptability of customers to suggestion. And in fact I actually wouldn't mind quite as much even in that case if they didn't pretend that their unique products deserved a completely ridiculous price tag that in no way reflects the process and costs of production.

What is being described here cables or pushed tuning 😉

pretending there is an actual physical mechanism for them being better products

Pushing is physically different. You may or may not agree that it's worth it (I don't FWIW) but there's no question that there is a difference.