I think cable directionality does matter. The way the metal is extruded determines the way the structure is formed and therefore must have an effect on performance. I must say I haven't performed a listening test, but if you know which way a cable was made, it kinda makes sense to keep things consistent. Why bother going against the grain if the manufacturer has made directionality an identifiable mark on a cable? I guess i'm being somewhat supersticious rather than scientific about this, but it seems like a non-issue to me. It's the type of cable which really matters.

As I have stated in previous threads on this topic, I once thought that claims that different cables would significantly vary the sound quality of a system was all a load of mumbo jumbo hot air, but when I tried a few out I realised I was totally wrong in my assumption.

Technically, it's all about reactance IMHO (capacitance and inductance varies according to the signal frequency and complexity), but nobody seems to be able to come up with any way of measuring cables other than subjective review articles. Understandable given how difficult cable characteristics are to measure. They form part of a circuit which other components have an influence. So the task of measurement becomes pretty impossible.

You get techy types telling us that certain amplifiers will handle tricky loads, whereas others fall flat. I'm sure a particular amplifier's ability in this respect makes a difference to the performance of a cable, as does a speaker design. So in one system, a super fancy cable won't do a great deal whereas in an other it is like chalk and cheese in terms of performance.

Price is no measure, but you try getting cables on loan to try out in your system (you absolutely have to try the cables out in your system at home). It's all about trial and error. I found it very difficult indeed to get a set of different manufacturer's cables on loan.

Interconnects count too and need matching. This all takes time and usually money!

I will not recommend any particular product because what is right for one setup is totally wrong for another, but I assure you that this aspect of sytem building should not be overlooked.

Rule number one: have a completely open mind!
Rule number two: listen for a period time, not back to backing.
Rule number three: Try out as many cables as you can (even if they are ones you cannot afford).
Rule number four: don't forget that hifi is about the pleasure listening to music, not equipment evaluation and interminable upgrading – make a choice and move on to enjoying your music collection!

It'd be wrong to make the map fit the ground which is what some are suggesting

Errr. You kinda have to make the map fit the ground. If it didn't it'd be a useless map and you'd have to go around changing the ground to suit what you'd drawn!

The way the metal is extruded determines the way the structure is formed and therefore must have an effect on performance.

Not really sure that's true. Sure the grain structure of extruded copper may be different to that of say cast or billet copper, but I'm not sure it would induce any directionality, certainly not at any level which may affect electrical signal transmission.

If this were the case I'd expect research work in the high frequency fields (GHz) to have a significant experience base with directional conductors, as they'd be at the pinnacle of sensitivity to signal loss and distortion. I've a colleague doing research in this field, I'll track him down and ask.

Ground fit the map is what I meant to type – but good that you're paying attention!

Speaking for myself, every bit of kit I swap out has to be different and at the very least, make an audiable difference and a step up in my listening experience.
My speaker cable is thicker than a garden hose pipe and not at all attractive, but sounds great.
My present speakers (Living Voice Avatars) no longer have the WOW! visual factor for clients as the previous Matin Logans but it's a different sound and in many ways, more engaging.

Next: a move to an all-valve set-up I think, but money is going on bikes at present!

Oh – if you're not hearing an difference, have your ears syringed! I did and Boy! What a difference.

Valves and horns! OOH sir! 😆

Check out the Living Voice and Martin Logan web sites if you have time and see what I mean about sound over substance.
That's the most recent evolution in 25yrs of my listening pleasure; it's not done all at once.

In answer to your original question, yes, the direction can make a difference if your ears, your (OPEN) mind, the room (in which you listen to music is set up well) and your equipment are all up to the task. Get one of these wrong and you'll maybe not notice a difference.

Either way, I hope you have fun trying this all out – have a beer for me too in the process & if you still can't get a result ask a hifi dealer to set your kit up one evening (£25?) or seek advice from one of the on-line hifi forums perhaps.

I think I'd best email Mavic and ask them which way they extruded my rims, I bet they run a LOT smoother in the right direction.

Can't quite believe we are actually having speaker cable manufacturers vs the laws of physics argument. 😯

I can tell the difference between good headphones and cheap ones, and between really cheap cables and decent ones, but directionality?

That is nearly as whack as the Hi-Fi CD copiers make better sounding copies than a computer cd-burner (I have heard that one off a Hi-Fi enthusiast).

Equally if you've wound up the excess wire on the cheap one that'll make a difference, 'cos you've just stuck an inductor between the amp and a speaker

I do have a Masters degree in Physics, give me some credit mate 🙂

You don't have a semiconductor just of one n or p type – it's how you use them together that's important, the crystalline structure of the copper is effectively random

Obviously it doesn't make a semiconductor, don't be silly. My point was that accidentals or other impurities in crystals can change its properties significantly with respect to conductance 🙂

They believe their ears only because they have a receipt for £11k in their wallet! If I'd dropped that much on a bit of kit I reckon I damn well would believe I could hear a difference before I admit I appear to have given almost half my yearly take home pay on a bit of copper

They believe their minds only because they have a receipt for a £5k bike in their wallet! If I'd dropped that much on a bike I reckon I damn well would belive I could feel a difference before I admit I appear to spent enough money to buy a car on a bicycle!

So I should flog the posh cables and stick with the red/white plugged jobbies off my old stuff then?

No. In fact, you can do your own sound test. Pick an album you know well and lsiten for a good time before switching.

Yes, 1 metre of overpriced cable on the end of the street supply from the substation definitely makes a difference. To your wallet.

Isn't it all about filtering out the noise for power supply?

I can't believe we've got to page five and nobody has discussd the importance of burning in your cables, or paying for the service…

This: I am not one who attempts to discern the subtle sonic differences cables convey on an audio system. I am a firm believer that only poorly designed cables can under the right conditions be sonically distinguishable. That being said, my listening tests focused on pure enjoyment of the sound quality of my reference system. At no point did I feel the Kimber cables were adding a level of realism I’ve never heard before with my standard 10AWG Blue Jeans zip cord. Never did I feel the midrange got more chocolatey or a magic veil was lifted. My wife never claimed she could hear the difference all the way from the kitchen while she was cooking up some chicken Marsala.

is from this article – real tests using graphs and all sorts… 😉

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/kimber-kable-8pr/kk4pr-8prlisteningtests

Here's an interesting comment:
"

Posted Mon 12 October 2009 19:21
Hi M***,

You should ask the physics guys where the graviton is

Scientific evidence requirs measurment in order to quantify. The problem arrises when an experience is not measurable. This is usually because we aren't able to, or don't know what the hell is to be measured. Which brings me back to the graviton. Humans as yet do not know what gravity is, yet we all experience it. Life's funny sometimes." 8)

Oh, and before anybody jumps in with "it's just the same for god, isn't it" or the like:

"Humans as yet do not know what gravity is, yet we all experience it"

We know what it is… by that there is a good scientific theory for what it is that is backed up by repeatable observations… It is the warping of spacetime by mass. What we don't know as yet is the exact physical mechanism of its propagation. But don't confuse that with not knowing what it is. Gravity is quite simple to understand, predict, model and measure.. Unlike directional cables..

It's funny that naim never used to sell expensive cables but after Julian died they started doing so.

Me I don't believe in the whole cable phooey so I just use cheap copper speaker cable and the stuff that came with TT and phono stage.

For what its worth I bagged a few meters of some super dooper speaker cable costing in excess of 100 quid a meter.

It made no difference I could hear.

My system is good enough that the hifi man thought he could rip me for some £1000 pound speaker cable though.

Some cables are electrically odd though like Goertz and can really make big changes but this is due to them cocking up your amp.

Check out russ andrews for a real bastard amoungst men…

There is quite a lot that I could write on this thread. But really, it can be summed up with this.

Stop arguing and stick some music on!

Damn I'm late to this one…esp as I got a mention on page 1. Personally I think it's tosh. There's a difference between really cheap stuff and more expensive stuff, but the law of diminishing returns comes in VERY early IMHO. There are too many other things in play. If it matters, I have 15yrs in electronics but more critically, 4years designing Pro Audio equipment for the Harman Pro group.

but the law of diminishing returns comes in VERY early IMHO

Agreed. The trick seems to be to find that one thing that's as good as something much more expensive, then you get slightly ahead of the diminishing returns curve.

Then STOP! DO NOT KEEP UPGRADING! GO OUT RIDING INSTEAD!

Why can't some people realize the hi-fi, or listening to music is a hobby to some, just like riding a bike. Don't forum members realize there are other hobby forums who laugh at all the things we write about our hobby and the things we find with our bikes, after all they are just bikes!
I've always believed the mind can make us do and think very strange things, things we can't explain and this is very relevant with hi-fi. How many times have you listened to a music track and it has made the hairs on your back stand on end, it hightening your senses even though it may be played through some clapped out radio with very poor reproduction quality? Now listen to the same track on a good hi-fi system and see what it does to you!
I'm very sceptical about expensive interconnects and speaker cable even though I'm a hi-fi/music buff. I do and have listened to many many different pieces of kit, not just when buying but also because a friend owned a very well respected shop and I always used my ears, didn't pre-judge anything and only bought what I thought made good music. Luckily with hi-fi you can get the chance to listen before you buy and make sensible choices whereas in the cycling world that's not possible with individual pieces of kit and you have to buy and then find out it's either good or bad. I don't trust the magazines, especially the cycling press as anyone who reads MBR's tests on bikes can have glowing reviews on one bike and mediocre on another – even with the same writer! So I think before we criticise someone else's hobby, ours needs putting right too. I read a review in one magazine where the writer said he didn't like one bike because the head angle was half a degree steeper than the other! Do you really think he could tell half a degree? Did he even measure them? Was he using the manufacturers specs? I try and trust my own judgement but this isn't always possible I know but like I said at the start, our mind can play tricks on us and make making decisions very difficult indeed. Some people will never get why some people pay thousands on hi-fi equipment, just like I don't get why some people pay a fortune for a bottle of wine or fo fine dining. I can't tell the difference in why a £100 bottle of wine is supposed to taste better than a £10 bottle but then again I've no desire to either but I do realize it's all subjective so why not let those who want enjoy their hobby do so and just get on with our own. Surely anyone on here who's talked to friends about how much they've spent on thier bikes has had lots and lots of them ask why as it's "just a bike" even though we can explain many many differences between them, I promise you this, they will never understand it and don't care to either. One mans meat etc etc.

Next up:
Deep Cryogenic Treatment – (DCT)
Never tried it but it sound interesting.

PS – There are some companies who will let you rent cables, be they power leads, interconnects or speaker cable. If you don't hear a difference, don't buy, and it's got not one jot to do with whatever receipt you have in that wallet of yours as most hifi is upgrades to the original purchase and is therefore an ongoing evolution and not one single out-right purchase.

"it's just the same for god, isn't it"

Erm, let's see…

Person A makes observation with no scientific basis. Person A's peers respond along the lines of "chinny reckon".

Person A gets all defensive and insists that he is correct, using circular logic as justification ("Why would they bother if it didn't make a difference?" – the answer's in your wallet, sunshine). More mirth ensues.

Person A says "no, wait, person B believes me and he's really clever". Person A also resorts to tiresome parroted argument along the lines of "science can't explain gravity".

Not seeing any parallels at all here, nooooooo. 🙂

my directional cables do warp spacetime by mass, but does me dropping them make them sound better or worse? (yep i do use nordorst cables & interconnects because they afford greater separation, clarity and stereo imaging over both QED, Chord, SME and others).

Have a read of these threads on pro audio forums

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/lofiversion/index.php/t6263.html
http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=4934

eg

I'm currently working at a Audio Post-Pro / dobly mastering house

All our analouge signal flow goes through B gauge patch bay using cheep as c*** klotz cable: we use neutric jacks as they are the most durable.

The cable going to our rediculus Genelec powered monitors is the same cheep stuff, and the amp – speaker cable is standerd 2 core 2.5mm mains cable…

something to think about: if we're mastering music for the consumer, whats the point in Hi-Fi bums using gear better than ours? If our gear is considered 'pro top line' why does the consumer try to better it?

something to think about: if we're mastering music for the consumer, whats the point in Hi-Fi bums using gear better than ours? If our gear is considered 'pro top line' why does the consumer try to better it?

It keeps coming back to this and I really do think this is the crux of the matter…

something to think about: if we're mastering music for the consumer, whats the point in Hi-Fi bums using gear better than ours? If our gear is considered 'pro top line' why does the consumer try to better it?

On the other hand.. some CDs are manifestly crappily mastered and some not. Ever wonder why that would be? 🙂

I think some of it's called information retreval, because we wold all use the same decks, cd players etc as studio's wouldn't we? We don't because we all hear hings differently hence my liking for amp b over amp a etc. There's also snob value in anything in life, be it what car you drive, what bike you ride, what you like eating or wine you drink so don't dismiss that either. Like I said, I've always used my ears and my cables sound fine to me and didn't cost a fortune either so maybe I'm lucky.

So… after 5 pages of blather can we sumarise as follows:-

Cables can make a perceived difference to the quality of the music listened to, but they don't appear to offer any measurable differences.

So, it's a bit like the memory effect in water in that regard then…

:oD

Hadge, surely the hifi purists dream is to listen to the music in as pure a form as possible, and to sound as close to that intended by the musician…

In which case, you'd be wanting the exact same kit that the studio used to master the album/track…

Okay, so maybe the snobbery element is more important then… ;o)

Yep, clear as mud.

Maybe cheap cables might inhibit the performance if you were running your stereo at full volume, but I imagine most people listen at around 20-30 Watts max anyway.

Active HiFi components like amps, tuners, CD players etc.. get better with increased quality and ergo price.. as a general rule.. This I accept. I believe.. I've experienced.. Not really go a problem with anyone spending thousands on those parts. Not even got a problem with anyone spending a reasonable amount of money on say gold plated terminal cables.. gold doesn't oxidise so the electrical connections are better.. Solid core cables as opposed to twisted core cables I can also see the point of and I've experienced the difference. There are good physical explanations as to why there is a difference.

But..

Directional cables that cost hundreds/thousands?

I admire the guys selling this stuff as there is just no way I could keep a straight face when taking the mugs money. There is NO directionality in a solid bit of metal. If you believe there is you are wrong. The music signal is AC. If there was any directionality to a cable it was being transmitted through it would sound bloody awful out the other end as it would be rectified to some degree.

Pro music studios.. the very ones that record the music for us in the first place laugh at the people buying these cables. Copper wire is copper wire. The parameters you get to control when you buy it are length and thickness… maybe how pretty you think it looks or the colour.. You can shield it with an earthed sleeve if you want.
To think there are people buying a piece of wire and paying more than the cost of their active hifi components for it just staggers me. It really does!
It's not rocket science!

To think there are people buying a piece of wire and paying more than the cost of their active hifi components for it just staggers me. It really does!
It's not rocket science!

It's not any kind of science.

Here's some science: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

To me it looks like a well designed test that was executed reasonably. There were issues about seating of the listeners, time taken to swap leads and the choice of music but nothing that I think would compromise the conclusion.

In summary, a double-blind randomised 'ABX' test of showed that listeners could detect a difference between Nordost Valhalla power leads and cheapo generic power cables 49% of the time. They may as well have tossed a coin.

>I do have a Masters degree in Physics, give me some credit mate

'Fraid I don't have ESP 😉 – the comments you made come over as someone that knew a little about a few things but not their relationship/significance to anything else – bear in mind there seems to be more than a little of that in this thread.

Actually, perhaps the difference is this – an engineer is always looking to make something 'good enough' – it's rarly any use spending 100x to gain a notional 0.01% of performance. Eg the old 'engineering approximation' used to be 10% – but it obviously depending what you're designing for (and one may want to use error analysis to verify changes). As an engineer, if it has no significant effect, you generally forget about it (unless of course you're worried about error accumulation). In physics you may want to know it's there and squirrel away the fact for later use.

>The way the metal is extruded determines the way the structure is formed and therefore must have an effect on performance

Must? On what basis ?

Oh, I checked with my mate re his Naim stuff…curiously he's never been the slightest bit bothered to try faffing with cable directions, and on his Naim kit the connectors used make it impossible to easily swap 'em round anyway.

Funnynick – it doesn't work that way. If it did we would all be listening to Rogers LS3/5a speakers which DON'T do bass very well. Not everyones cup of tea syndrome I'm afraid. I buy stuff I like, then listen to it as it makes me happy. I have no desire to upgrade, funds etc being as they are and also believing I've got a system that sounds right for me. I understand technology moves on and on but I also realize my ears are getting worse and worse lol.

I thought about that, but decided that would be open to the accusation that there was then too much time between hearings so comparison wouldn't be possible?

simple.

tell him you've changed the cables, while out actually having changed them.
then see if he can tell a difference.
seem to remember such a test being done on AVforums. with a chap and his wife being the test ears (he a audiophile, and she being married to him)

When i was setting up my Hi-fi equiment in my house after moving in, i popped over to Richer Sounds for some extra cabling and got to borrow there sample pack of different speaker cables – ranging from cheap 1-2mm cable that tends to come with cheap stereos, some 8mm cable, some more expensive cable and a bit of expensive cable. – i couldnt tell a differance except for the really cheap cable which was a bit hissy.

So i stuck with my £10 for 30m of JVC 8mm cable for the majority of the wiring, except for 10m of some more expensive cable, which was flat so i could run it under the carpet to the otherside of the room for my rear speakers.

seem to remember such a test being done on AVforums. with a chap and his wife being the test ears (he a audiophile, and she being married to him)

There's a test on AVReview.co.uk which doesn't really have enough data to have validity but does seem to show that a difference can be determined between £1.99 and £7.99 generic speaker cables but that "it was much more difficult to detect a clear difference when we used the more expensive 'cheap' cable (£7.99) against the £500 Chord Signature."

http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/1863

Lord: When have Poorer Sounds ever sold hi-end HiFi Cable?
Answer: Never.

If you are going to do it properly, at least put some effort into it.
Go to a Real Hifi shop, demo some kit, borrow others and maybe get someone over to set it up for you (£25?) and then tell me there's no difference you can't live without.

This is what happens when you're starting out and want more from your music and you are prepared to invest some real time, effort and maybe some £ into the projest.

If anyone doubts this and lives in the Watford area, I have spare kit and you're welcome to have a listen to bits I have collected over the years, some of which is for sale, but that's a by-the-by.

Can't say fairer than that .

RichPenny – Member
There is quite a lot that I could write on this thread. But really, it can be summed up with this.

Stop arguing and stick some music on!

Damn I had been waiting to see what RichPenny had to say on all this 🙁

Ti29er – i dont really care.

i bought some kit that – to me, sounded good. was an improvement over what i had. and i could afford.
The speaker cables i really wasnt too bothered about – except for the short run from the amp to the back of the room for the rear speakers.
Just took my time to make sure i got the wires the right way round.

i much prefer going out to gigs – seeing the band in the raw.

The only thing i would like to do, is when i can, upgrade my Wharfedale Moviestar 60 speakers for something a little larger (was origonally hankering after Acoustic Energy EVO speakers, but they've been discontinued)

…..which leads to; "which music do you play when auditioning hifi"?

Sorry – a red herring I know, but if you are contributing to this thread you'll know what you use as a bench mark for the music you know.
BTW – piano we are told is the most difficult to replicate accurately.
Have you listened to the 2004 album the Una Mattina Album…. by Ludovico Einaudi; piano and cello?

PS – if you don't care, why post?
Seriously though, ditch the 3,5,7 speaker surround for music and switch back to a 2 system set up, one for music (stereo) and one for TV, Movies etc.

Which rather begs the question: how many are posting here about audiophile things but at the very same time are listening to something with more than 2 front (stereo) speakers?
(bangs head against brick wall)

Here's another Double Blind ABX test. In shocking news, the listeners were unable to distinguish between the cables.

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

I'm listening to Kenny Ken dropping old skool drum & bass on a cassette right now….and I personally GUARANTEE that it sounds better than any of your MOR or Piano or Cello on a Naim or anything else.

No contest.