Hi all,

Riding clipless for 10 years or so. A month or so ago my clipless shoes and pedals were in need of replacement and I decided to give flat pedals a go (AM/Enduro bike). Got a set of Nukeproof Sam Hill Horizons and a pair of Shimano GR7 shoes.

Have a good deal of rides with them now (riding 3 times a week), in a vast array of conditions, and the weirdest thing is happening. Contrary to all common knowledge and expectations, I’m loving the flats on climbs but not so sure while descending, dropping and jumping.

I found that I’m climbing as well or better than with clipless. I consider I have a fairly smooth pedal stroke and never had the habit of pulling the upwards pedal, which might be related. The shoes/pedals stick well enough for my feet to stay put and it’s way easier to restart pedaling once you stop mid climb.

My doubt is descending. On very slow, very technical sections yes, being able to put a foot down is nice, but then I never had much trouble doing so with clipless. However, I’ve always been fairly good at ploughing through stuff and I fell  lost some of my ability to charge through rock gardens, roots, etc. Running out of travel more often, and I have 150mm of it. I’m also still having trouble keeping my feet on the pedals at jumps and drops.

Overall, I feel my riding had to became more planned and less spontaneous, everything needs to be more deliberate. Keeping my feet heavy on the pedals also took away some of the smoothness and flow.

Anyone else got through the same? Should I insist for a little longer? Or it might be I’m just not a flat pedal guy?

I was always considered the best downhiller in the group and I feel the flats are king of holding me back.

One more question.

The one thing I’m loving about flat pedals (besides smoking my clipped mates on climbs) are the shoes. Not only the Shimano GR7s stick really well and are extremely comfortable, but being able to go for a drink or a coffee, drive or simply hang out with mates with the same shoes I was riding is awesome.

If I return to clipless I’m contemplating the Shimano AM7 (2018) shoes. Anyone has experience with those? Will I be able to walk around normally with them as I do with the GR7s?

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post

I know exactly what you means having ridden for the last 5 years clipped in going to flats earlier this year I felt they worked great until, downhill and loosing my footing even though my stealth rubber and dmr gripped superb, lots of shin cuts to show, I got flats for my new bike and I’ve stuck to spd so far, just feel easier.

I’m going to persist on flats and keep going and mix it up a little , you can get lazy clipped in.

but even the pros at ardrock where clipped in,

Have you got your feet far enough forwards on the pedal – you need the pedals almost underneath your instep, rather than under the ball of your foot as you would have with SPDs – I find this especially helps maintain control while descending, though I often move my foot back to a more SPD position when climbing.

Ive worked quite hard with flats over the last year, and got to the stage where I can swap from flats to spd and back again no bother which is nice as you can mix it up a bit, so worth persevering.

I thought I’d give flats a go 18 months ago. Literally that week an ad for Ryan Leechs flat pedal course popped up on FB.

Really helped me get my head around the right technique & I haven’t looked back.

Thanks for all the answers

Yep, I’m placing the pedal much more rearwards vs the SPD, and that helps a little. I also find that position the easiest to find when you want to return your foot to the pedal in a hurry.

I do believe I could progress a good deal if I insist on flats for some months, but then you think “why bother?”. I’ve been in a phase of steady progress for 4 months or so prior to the flats, bigger jumps and drops every month, bigger everything.

On the walkability of Shimanos’ AM7, any experiences?

Thanks

From my experience exactly the same as you. Drop your heels, relax a bit but I find it so hard to relax and trust the pedals. It’s not about skill riding it’s just purely confidence for me and I don’t like descending on flats especially when it’s steep or technical. I gave up and stuck with clips, though I think my riding would benefit if I actually stuck at it.

Just concentrate on dropping your heels and staying out the saddle when it’s getting rough. The axle should be about mid-foot arch.

I’m going through the same transition from clipless onto flats at the mo,I too was loosing my foot contact and weighting  in the same situations you are -I also find them better for climbing fun singletrack too. I got the chance to try a mates bike that on paper should be much too big for me but suddenly things felt better-bizarrely my feet were planted/sticking much  more on his small spd pedals  in my 5 10s than on my own bike with big platforms….. it certainly got me thinking.So as an experiment I’ve raised the front end height of my bike by 20mm and its much better for me now-my bodyweight is more centrally balanced on a higher stack bike,my seated position is better too-I was pitched forward too much before and fighting it all the time-the lack of traction on the flats showed clearly for me that something had to be wrong.

If I hadn’t of worked this out for myself I would of soon given up on flats…….as of now I’m having a ball on them.

Kind of glad to know I’m not the only one going through this.

What are people doing to keep the feet planted on jumps and drops?

I had a coaching session the other day and I am about to try my first proper ride on flats in years tomorrow, having ridden spd’s for ages. I’m more worried about climbs than descents I think. The trick to flats seems to be what others here have said, plant your foot further forwards, dip your heels and keep your weight through your feet. I had it fairly dialled in the other day so I’m hoping it stays with me, or comes back very quickly! I definitely found it more comfortable on steep and loose stuff than I have when clipped in.

What are people doing to keep the feet planted on jumps and drops?

I found it really unnerving when I first started with flat pedals and found myself practically jumping off of them when riding drops. I just practised on smaller drops until I had got out of the habit of attempting to use my legs to lift the bike. Probably the best way to get out of that habit is to learn to bunnyhop because you can do that anywhere.

I swapped a coupe of years ago. Mainly motivated by a grab my bike and ride it mentality with my hard tail, which I used for riding with my sons and nipping into town/local journeys.

You need to persevere with it. Like the OP I found riding up was easier than adjusting to the downs especially the lumpier downs.

The foot position advice above is good and then it’s all about familiarity and a little practice .

Thanks again for all the answers.

Just as a foot note, I can bunny hop with the flats, actually even more comfortably than with clips. I guess I’m a basket case…

Have an enduro race in a couple of months, really don’t want to be wasting precious training time with something I won’t stick with

About walking on the Shimanos AM7 / AM9, any experiences?

I’m in the opposite situation to you, ride flats most of the time and have been trying out clipless. I’ve got a set of AM7 and they walk fine. You can hear the cleat on the ground but can’t really feel it.

Do you feel the cleats sliding in the floor, or are they recessed enough not to do so?

I’m running crank brothers cleats set quite far back, and with a spacer under the cleat (ie pushing it further out), and even with that you still can’t feel it when you walk.

So today instead of hitting the trails I went to session some jumps and drops close to home for an hour or so.

Quite productive, I think I got it now. Tried to stop thinking about my feet and did my best to relax. Everything went smooth, feet stayed put, was able to use less suspension travel.

I think, more than technique, the thing here is I’m thinking too much about my feet and the pedals. Still need to figure high speed rocky stuff….

Just an update on this topic

Since I posted here the last time, I decided to stick with the flat pedals for a while.

The following happened:

– my cornering improved a lot

– I stopped having trouble with feet coming off on jumps and drops. My jump and dropping ability progressed a lot since I lost some stupid habits like fighting and pulling the bike mid-air

– Flow type trails are a blast

– Still having trouble on more natural or rocky trails, specially at speed. I used to be the king of charging through stuff in my group and now everybody noticed I lost a lot of speed. This is a deal breaker for me

I keep forcing myself to drop heels, pedal mid foot (easy) and weight on the pedals. Two problems arise;

1 – It seems no matter how far back I get, not enough weight goes into my feet

2 – I’m forced to get my weight so rearwards that my front end gets too light and I get traction and stability issues

It might be that both this issues might be related to my bike’s geometry. It’s a size L Aeris AM9, 500mm reach.

It seems that the centralized and forward leaning stance this new school (forward geometry?) promotes is not ideal for flat pedals.

It seems that the centralized and forward leaning stance this new school (forward geometry?) promotes is not ideal for flat pedals

Can’t say I particularly agree with that seeing as I use flats with a L Aeris 145 and don’t have any problems losing my feet (well, have once or twice lately but then my shoes are 4 years old and the soles are knackered!).

Try not to think of pushing your feet onto the pedals, more that a weight underneath is pulling your whole bodyweight down onto them.

When you’re charging through rough stuff at speed are you pedalling or static?

I’m talking about charging full speed through rock gardens and other rough sections on proper enduro and DH tracks, not pedaling

I’ve read back through all this thread with the two month’s ago position and the new update.

I’m able to swap between clipless and flats no problem but earlier this summer I had a problem with my feet getting knocked out of position on downhills on flats.  I’d been getting faster and faster in alpine terrain but constantly repositioning my feet was getting tiresome.  My temporary solution was some mallets but then I went back to the flats again and fixed the problem by… tuning my rear suspension.

I went from zero volume spacers in a Vivid Air rear shock to a bodged volume spacer made from a bit of cut out inner tube while keeping the same pressure I was used to; this softened the top out and solved the problem.

This might not be your problem but flats won’t mask bad suspension setup.  My recipe refined over the summer changed a bunch of my settings that I’d previously relied on…

… higher tyre pressure (24psi/28psi)

… faster rebound – lots of rocky high speed descents so fast enough to ensure no packing

… moderate sag (25%-28%) – determined by the need for support more than anything

… a little bit of positive volume reduction to let the negative spring *catch* the topout

… as much LSC as needed to calm the suspension feel or less LSC to make it lively – adjust to taste

I don’t agree with the midfoot placement thing for flats (although if you’re on a really long reach bike you might want it because it positions you correctly behind your bars).  I found myself on a shorter bike than ideal (when my big bike cracked) and I adjusted my cleat position (mallets) forward before I got comfortable – my feet find their way to the same position on flats.

Riding definitely qualified as full speed through rock gardens on proper DH and enduro.  Just put the same setup to the test on my first enduro back in Scotland and riding blind I was on the pace in a way I’ve never been before.

YMMV

Thanks for your input.

I always thought flat pedals demanded slower rebound in order to “calm” the rear end

I’ve an enduro race in two weeks so need to sort this out quickly.

Then I look at the pros being on clipless and think “why bother?”…