But that’s not what it’s based on!!!

so what is it based on then? all the other proposed reasons don’t stand up to scrutiny either.

D0NK – Member

taking off your helmet off, especially in winter, seems a right old faff for a 10sec encounter with a petrol station cashier.

I can see why it might be difficult for people without hands, but for everyone else it’s the work of moments. Especially if you’re already taking off a glove to work your bank card etc.

I think 10 seconds or 10 minutes doesn’t really make a difference to me, it’s either rude or it’s not, being rude for 10 seconds isn’t really any different from being rude for longer.

To me there’s a number of perfectly good reasons people might ask or expect you to remove your lid, but civility was all the reason I needed. And I never did find any real reason not to other than, well, laziness.

I’m kind of an ex-biker now but I think casting this as anti-biker is plain silly.

To me there’s a number of perfectly good reasons people might ask or expect you to remove your lid, but civility was all the reason I needed.

I think this is probably one of the most valid reasons, simply that it’s rude not to. But that then doesn’t explain why it’s a policy directed solely at helmets, and round we go again. (And since when were Tesco our self-appointed politeness police anyway?)

so what is it based on then? all the other proposed reasons don’t stand up to scrutiny either.

Whatever it was based on doens’t have to stand up to scrutiny. I mean, it should, of course, but people often base things on misconceptions.

However, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s just a cover for people who don’t like motorcyclists. I don’t see why you can’t understand the most likely reason for it – imo, this is as follows:

1) People feel uneasy and nervous when you can’t see their faces

2) Robberies have been committed by people wearing helmets as disguise, which exacerbates point 1

3) Many employers have a policy to protect their staff from feeling threatened or intimidated.

4) Employers may think that they are helping to prevent crime because they are closing this particular method for actual criminals to disguise their identity. After all, most other methods of disguise would stand out like a sore thumb except motorbike helmets and burka/niqab. So it makes it a little harder for robbers.

5) They can’t refuse to serve people wearing religious face cover because there are other laws against it that trump the right to refuse service. And on top of that, not many robberies are committed by muslim women (I’m guessing). Although there are possibly some, and there was that case where the suicide bomber dressed as a woman.

Don’t you think that’s plausible? It is not necessary to jump to the anti-motorcyclist prejudice conclusion to explain it.

But that then doesn’t explain why it’s a policy directed solely at helmets,

What else is there? What other face coverings are common yet not protected by other laws? Are there many downhillers wandering around the High St in goggles?

Cougar – Moderator

(And since when were Tesco our self-appointed politeness police anyway?)

Since you’re on their premises, interacting with their staff and their customers.

You say “why is it only helmets”. It’s not only helmets- they’re not saying “take your helmet off. Leave everything else on”. It’s just specifically helmets, on that sign. But there’s not many others, and most of the others aren’t just a matter of convenience/laziness.

The obvious one is religious coverings. But even if you don’t respect religion, or if you feel that covering your face is a mark of oppression, you still have to concede that demanding someone remove a face covering worn for religious reasons has a bigger impact than a helmet worn for convenience reasons.

It is not necessary to jump to the anti-motorcyclist prejudice conclusion to explain it.

in all honesty, I’ve never thought it was an intentional “we hate bikers, let’s inconvenience them” policy. Rather, ill-conceived.

What other face coverings are common yet not protected by other laws?

I must have mentioned at least one other example a dozen times or more. Wrap a winter scarf around your neck, pull a hoodie hood down over your face and bow your head, maybe a baseball cap too, put some sunglasses on. Now look in a mirror and tell me if you’d pick out that face in a line-up.

I’ll try and answer the rest of your post in a bit, I’ve stuff to do here just now.

The obvious answer is to clip-clop into the establishment wearing your helmet, enduro shorts, altura jacket with poo-like mud adorning your arse, face and teeth, muttering Je Suis Gnarly.

It’s not only helmets… It’s just specifically helmets

Seriously, you’re arguing grammar now?

even if you don’t respect religion, or if you feel that covering your face is a mark of oppression, you still have to concede that demanding someone remove a face covering worn for religious reasons has a bigger impact than a helmet worn for convenience reasons.

Of course. But it’s a thorny issue and I didn’t want to descend into Yet Another Religion Thread about special privilege which will no doubt run all too predictably so I was trying to avoid it.

everyone knows it’s because our society (in the main) is too pathetic and battered down by the head in the clouds left to ask religious face-coverers to remove their err, face-covering. Don’t we…well don’t we…

I’m kind of an ex-biker now but I think casting this as anti-biker is plain silly.

I’m not, I’m not even a biker, but the discrepancy has on occasion piqued my interest enough to discuss it on t’internet

imo, this is as follows:

1. Agreed but only seemingly applied to bikers.
2. correlation
3. silliness – see my previous posts
4. Other methods of disguise are available and helmets on a petrol forecourt aren’t exactly out of place are they (as I said, I’m not proposing you do your weekly shop in your full facer)
5. so picking on bikers coz they aren’t protected?

Don’t you think that’s plausible?

yes, I can see why they might think it a good idea for the reasons you mentioned, but these “reasons” are easily refuted so why continue with the policy?

I must have mentioned at least one other example a dozen times or more. Wrap a winter scarf around your neck, pull a hoodie hood down over your face and bow your head, maybe a baseball cap too, put some sunglasses on. Now look in a mirror and tell me if you’d pick out that face in a line-up.

I can see the sign now…

“No motorcycle helmets or hoodies with the hood up and with scarves wrapped around and with baseball caps and with sun-glasses while bowing heads”.
Won’t somebody think of the streetwise, American sport playing, overly polite Japanese people who suffer from glare and who feel the cold! 😉

Weren’t hoodies ‘famously’ banned from Lakeside/Bluewater not so long ago?

EDIT: I say “not so long ago”, turns out it was a decade ago! Eeeh, when I were a lad…

Cougar – Moderator

Seriously, you’re arguing grammar now?

That’s not grammar, it’s substance. They’re targeting one specific group with that sign, but that doesn’t mean it’s the only group the policy applies to- it’s just the only one on the sign. Why single them out? Presumably because they think it’s a big group that it’s helpful to single out.

I worked in a retail bank for a while, if you came into my branch with a fullface on, you’d see a sign saying “please remove helmets”. Then you’d get me tactfully asking you to take it off, and playing the fellow biker card, because I always jumped in before one of my colleagues was a dick about it. But if you came in wearing your Anonymous mask or a bucket on your head, you’d get asked to remove that too even though there’s no sign about it.

It’s not substance then, it’s just a shit sign. And it’s also not in a bank, where I’d hazard that slightly different rules apply.

“Sorry mate, you can’t come into the store with your halloween mask on, company policy.”

“Oh? Where’s it say that?”

“On that sign that says ‘no helmets’.”

“Erm…”

Signs aren’t there for you to play guessing games about what they might mean, they’re to give clear information.

I can’t believe you’re still going on about this. 😆

Shit sign – fair enough. Lots of poorly worded signs and indeed policies. Glad we’ve moved away from ‘the government sanctions anti-biker prejudice and propaganda and wishes them all dead’

Poddy, you are talking rubbish.

Ahh. The condescending MolgripsWhoKnowsEverything tone again!
Ride a motorbike, do you? 🙂

Is that why they spend so much money on Think Bike ads?

Because the accident statistics don’t fit in the transport plans. They really don’t. Read the motorcycle press.

Motorists don’t like you when you perform insane manouvres potentially involving us in accidents. It’s got nothing to do with jealousy.

Again, you don’t ride a motorbike. You have only half an idea. And you’re also proving my point in that statement alone! Also, as we’ve tried to hammer into your head before if I recall correctly (I’m not gonna try again now!) what seems ‘insane’ to you might not be to the biker. It’s about perceptions. In all my days riding and driving I can literally count maybe two or three incidents involving bikes that i’d classify as mad/insane/stupid. One of them I actually had a word with the guy when he pulled into the same carpark as us, too, it was just a mad overtake on Mrs PP who was ahead of me.

Most of us could very easily afford motorbikes.

So why don’t you join us then? Serious question.
Mostly it’s to do with perceptions again though. EG – “Ohh, I can’t, I’d kill myself” Surely you’ve heard that before? I’ve seen it on STW!

What the actual **** are you talking about?

Personal experience.

I have never heard anyone badmouth motorcyclists (unlike pedal cyclists) – only those performing aforementioned insane manovures.

I have. Quite often if it comes up in conversation and they go on and on and on about it, to your face. I can deal with that. But I’ve actually been in a group of people and had someone doing it behind my back, so I could hear it, to someone else.

You honestly are living in a fantasy land.

I’m not. But you can never accept something from someone else, can you? 🙂
My wife can back me up on this, but for instance, when we used to go touring on the motorbikes, we knew we had to book in advance. Why? Some campsites will turn you away. We had one or two try it when we turned up, one woman was visibly dismayed when Mrs PP chirped up “We’ve booked!”

Or performing lots of insane manovures without realising how much it stresses other road users out.

Jumping to assumptions again, like you always do. Last time I counted I’d done well in excess of 150,000 miles on motorbikes. I have ONE golden rule, and I’ll admit to it here and now
Only ride like a **** when there’s nobody else around
And I have done, hell yes. What’s the point of having a Ducati and not making it play the finest Italian concerto beneath you? It’s a mechanical orgasam…. Shivers down my spine…. 🙂
But I currently do 12,000 + miles a year these days, on a low powered bike that’ll just about do 110mph. I’m confident, smooth and steady. I can’t afford to take risks.
I’ll tell you what ‘stresses other road uses out’ right now: They don’t see us, because they’re not looking. And when they change lanes right in front of you, it can’t be THEIR fault, can it? Noooooo…. never! Again, personal experience. Some just don’t care and will pull out even if they DO see you. Had that this week actually…. I was ready for him….
Ohh yeah, in the past I’ve actually had someone try and force me off the road because I dared to filter to the front of a queue. Honest truth, that was all I’d done.
It happens. I’m not making it up, although, that said, it’s happens less and less as time goes by. Which is nice. 🙂

Like I said, I’m calm and confident. I have to be. I have this bizarre outlook on the way I ride which I’ve tried to explain to others, and I struggle to get the point across. I’ll try:
I TAKE responsibilty for YOUR actions. I take it from you, I watch you, I second guess you, I anticipate. (I’m quite good at it, always have been, it’s like a 6th sense sometimes) but most of all I make your mistakes MY PROBLEM. It’s hard to explain, I’m sort of alleviating you of the necessity to think in a way….
I don’t get stressed about it, I don’t blame you, I don’t over react, but I deal with it, process it, act, and learn.
I’ve had two (minor) accidents that were someone else fault. But that’s no good to me, blaming them. Because then I don’t learn. So accept it, think about it, and learn. Neither will happen again. I have actually avoided someone in a van running into the back of me when I was waiting at some lights (Outside Barons BMW in Farnborough, as it happens)
Basically it doesn’t matter who’s fault it is to me. As long as I’m rubber side down I’m happy. 🙂

nd I have done, hell yes. What’s the point of having a Ducati and not making it play the finest Italian concerto beneath you? It’s a mechanical orgasam…. Shivers down my spine….

You don’t fit the stereotype at all.

I’m calm

😀

“Sorry mate, you can’t come into the store with your halloween mask on, company policy.”
“Oh? Where’s it say that?”

“we only have signs for the stuff that’s most likely to happen, if we had a sign for everything that’s not allowed this would look like a sign shop.”

Simple.

Cougar – Moderator

“Sorry mate, you can’t come into the store with your halloween mask on, company policy.”

“Oh? Where’s it say that?”

“Just now, when I said it”. There’s not a sign that says you can’t have a **** in the cash register either but I recommend against trying. Might get it caught in the note press.

Wow what a thread. I have had issues at petrol stations with my helmet, well that a lie, i have once and have never been back. I remove my helmet for going in and paying but for filling up its a faff with nowhere safe to put it. Station in question wouldnt turn the pump on so I just left.

Ohh yeah, in the past I’ve actually had someone try and force me off the road because I dared to filter to the front of a queue. Honest truth, that was all I’d done.

I’ve had that way more than once. One time at the next lights as the driver was threatening to run me over I reached in the car took the keys and chucked them up the road.

what seems ‘insane’ to you might not be to the biker. It’s about perceptions.

That’s my point exactly. It’s about perception. You might be safe zooming around, but you sure as shit don’t look it to the rest of us. And more than that, it’s about acting in an intimidating way.

I used to get around busy Cardiff city centre when I was 19 by running. I used to enjoy weaving through crowds fast. I stopped doing it though not because it was dangerous, but because I realised other people didn’t like it. It was intimidating to have a grown man running by close to you.

It’s the same for motorbikes. It’s not nice having them bomb past inches from your wing. It stresses me out because it’s a large fast moving object very close to my car. It puts me under pressure because I know I can’t so much as avoid a pothole without knocking him off.

It’s the same reason I slow right down on downhills on the mtb when passing walkers. Even if I am having a great time on a great dh I will slow to a crawk. Not because it’s risky, but because other people don’t like it and I don’t want to be a dick.

“Jumping to assumptions again, like you always do. “

This thread is not about you, so if you don’t intimidate others that’s great but I wasn’t talking about you.

I stand corrected about anti motorcycling sentiment then. I was simply going on the fact I have never in my life herd anyone complaining about motorcyclists as a group, just scary ones. Just like people do with car drivers.

Ah bloody hell, the ‘argue black is white’ brigade are in 🙁

Someone a page back mentioned Godwin’s law:

Cycle camping in Germany we were pitched on a peaceful campsite when a pack of “scary ones” turned up. Noisy, aggressive, lent one of the bikes against someone’s caravan, rode off for half an hour and returned with enough beer for half a dozen rugby teams. We decided to leave so I went to the campsite owner who refused to give us our money back until I pointed out that one of them was riding around in a WWII helmet and there were a few too many Nazi symbols – so I’d be back with the police to do something about the Nazi occupation.

All sorts of people ride bikes and the only thing they have in common is that they all ride bikes.

And they’re all scum – you forgot that bit.

I remember one time, my motorbike gang pulled into town, chaos ensued… I heard one little old lady say “These bloody motorbikers have eaten all the cakes!” Take that, Aberfeldy!

I had a similar experience in Uig on Skye. They were shouting at each other until almost midnight (in that way drunk folk do) when I eventually got fed up and bawled at them to shut up.

Within 30 seconds they had all gone to bed 🙂

Get the original point about – all faces should be uncovered – but even so, manners, just take the helmet off. You are not the bloody STIG (does anyone watch TG on here? )

Lol 🙂

Well my commuter is in the classifieds and its a perfect first bike – I don’t think you’ll scare many old ladies with it but you might just discover a whole new world. Just don’t forget to take your lid off chaps 😀

Budgens in Packington Street opened in February last year but has suffered thousands of pounds worth of losses through the theft of cigarettes and alcohol and the damage caused through the smash-and-grab raids.

CCTV footage from the raids, which began in August, show what appears to be the same group of at least six, wearing motorcycle helmets and dressed in black, emptying shelves of goods into bags and even down their trousers…

On BBC local news today

grum – Member
I watched a documentary about people who ride motorbikes – it doesn’t quite show the safe, cuddly image some of you are trying to portray.

I think, I hope you forgot the 😉
But getting back to something like the original point, as someone else said, it’s really more about civility and being polite, it’s disconcerting when others can’t see a person’s eyes when talking to them; I wear pretty dark tinted lenses usually, and sunglasses with my contacts, all of which have either very dark or mirrored/iridium-style lenses, and if I get talking to someone for more than a minute or two I take them off, just because its the polite thing to do!
It’s not unusual to have small children burst into tears when confronted by a grown-up they don’t know with their eyes covered up, it scares them.
Being polite costs bugger-all in the greater scheme of things.

On BBC local news today

Coming next, “no black clothing.”

I wear pretty dark tinted lenses usually, and sunglasses with my contacts, all of which have either very dark or mirrored/iridium-style lenses, and if I get talking to someone for more than a minute or two I take them off, just because its the polite thing to do!

I’ve always taken sunglasses off before interacting with people for just that reason.