Heart rate. Difference between training and racing?

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  • Heart rate. Difference between training and racing?
  • simon430
    Member

    Adrenaline? Happens to me in races and time trials.

    cynic-al
    Member

    Yes, my HR was always a decent amount higher in races.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    What goes on in your legs is only half of it.

    Hob Nob
    Member

    Interesting, I was always the same. Based on feeling, actual racing puts me in a different place mentally and I seem to be able to go harder than training.

    I have backed this up in the past with HRM stuff, when racing, I can get it 5-7% higher than everything I’ve got when training. Symptom of adrenaline?

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Yep I’m always higher in races.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    So, do you guys find this higher “racing rate” maintainable for long endurance events or does it lead to blowing up?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Of course not – you can’t keep up the same pace for a shorter race as for a longer one..?

    However the ‘race effect’ can work in both long races and short ones, depending on how fired up you are. Cos that’s what it’s really all about.

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
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    I’d try it on a long training ride and see what happens. Your threshold and sustainable pace may be higher or lower than your guesstimate. You also need to allow for cardiovascular drift.

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
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    However the ‘race effect’ can work in both long races and short ones, depending on how fired up you are. Cos that’s what it’s really all about.

    So if you were racing, say, a 24-hour solo, being fired up will override the basics of physiology? Good luck with that 🙂

    DT78
    Member

    As a rule i’ll see higher maintained averages in a race, but i also try to do a reasonable number of race simulations (aka racing your mate flatout round twrch for instance). For longer events you need to find your comfortable average and hold to it. If i still feel good i start pushing harder the last few hours. Ive had too many times now where ive gone out at 2hr pace and blown up and then had cramp to deal with for the final few painful miles

    cynic-al
    Member

    I was always able to go harder in races, up to 3-4 hours iirc.

    BadlyWiredDog – Member
    I’d try it on a long training ride and see what happens

    The point is he can’t recreate the race scenario in training.

    Hob Nob
    Member

    I don’t know about endurance stuff, my example was when I did the Mega a couple of years ago.

    When training, both on the turbo/road/XC/whatever, I managed to max out around 190bpm. With some high intensity other sports (squash to a reasonable standard) I managed to max out 2 or 3 bpm more.

    When I raced the Mega, I averaged 187bpm for 51 minutes and maxed out at 204 😯

    I wasn’t very well at the end. I’ve never managed to get within 10bpm of that max since. I might start using one again to see what sort of numbers it brings up.

    I imagine like most, I go too hard too soon, and go pop too quickly, then struggle to maintain from then on. The fun of racing really!

    Yup normal for me, so much so that I’ve stopped using HR in races as the figures just scare me.

    I go on perceived effort, which whilst in theory is the same as in training, is more than likely considerably higher.

    This can be down to fuelling, rest, adrenaline, never underestimate the power of pinning a number on.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    So if you were racing, say, a 24-hour solo, being fired up will override the basics of physiology?

    The basics of sport physiology already include psychology, so no.

    However, when I raced 24 hour solo, being fired up certainly helped me not sleep. Helped loads.

    Bear in mind the OP is talking about measured HR vs perceived exertion or ‘feel’, which is exactly what’s hugely affected by your state of mind.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    Been following a training program for 18 weeks now and recently did my first practice race. My average heart rate was around 10% higher for the race than I’m used to in training although perceived effort, I’d say it was a similar. In theory, I should have suffered lactate build up working at that level but after the 3 hour event was done, I felt okay considering.

    If I’d stuck to target heart rate for the race, I’d have been well off the pace. Is this normal? The reason I’m asking is that I’m building up to a much longer event and I’m wondering how to play it now. I don’t want to blow up after 11 hours and fail to finish.

    bjj.andy.w
    Member

    njee20 – Member
    Yep I’m always higher in races.

    So was Lance… 😀

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Perhaps you were unwell. Happened to me in London mara when hr was high from the outset. I adjusted my pace accordingly and two days later discovered that I had a virus.

    My best races (running) have tended to co-incident with hr being exactly on target (I find john l Parker’s target ranges spot in fOR ME). Recently ran half mara but ignored elevated HR over 1H and died (for the first time for me) in last two miles.

    So adrenaline may make a difference but my experience tells me not to ignore my HR.

    djglover
    Member

    HR should be a lot lower in training than in a race

    HR training = 145-160 bpm for aerobic workout, and average over a hard session with recovery, although the last interval of a set might see well over 180
    HR racing = 173-182 for racing 173 average for marathon 181 average for 10k

    Based on running though, and a max HR of 192, cycling will probably be 10 bpm lower

    I don’t like perceived effort, as I always end up going to fast!

    Premier Icon tonyg2003
    Subscriber

    I seem to often spend the winter thinking that my HRmax has declined – hardly every breach +175bpm then I race and often get to ~185bpm. Racing – you just go harder and deeper – that’s why it hurts!

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    Wasn’t ill before, during or after. Felt great actually. Also felt like I did rather well. Second fastest on the bike leg. Just wondering when I doy ironman, should I stick to my “zones”as used in training or can iI go a bit quicker based on these recent race numbers?

    DT78
    Member

    HR should be a lot lower in training than in a race

    Don’t really agree I think it depends on what you are trying to improve, a training plan should cover a variety of aspects, including flat out efforts during intervals or race simulations which should be as close as you can get to your race output and you should be able to see your HR max (if not you simply aren’t pushing as hard as you can go…). You also need to focus on base training at lower levels etc.. depending on your phasing and your current targets.

    As mentioned HR is a yardstick rather than an exact measure as it can be effected by many things. But I do feel it is a good thing to know what your sustained maximum average HR is over a time period, it gives you a bench mark and you can adapt from there. As you get fitter those numbers may change, I haven’t seen this personally, I’ve just got faster / more powerful for the same HR averages.

    My current bench marks are approx:

    202 max (I have seen 204…)
    190+ for bursts of less than 2 mins no more the 10 efforts or I risk cramp
    178 for upto 90mins
    168 for upto 120mins
    157 for upto 6 hours
    150ish for 6 hours +

    But, very subjective depending on health, when I last trained, fueling, hydration, weather, etc…

    You just need to measure and record so you can build up a picture

    I’m saving up for a power meter…much more useful for this sort of thing. Shame they are £££s

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Just wondering when I doy ironman, should I stick to my “zones”as used in training or can iI go a bit quicker based on these recent race numbers?

    Since it’s such a long ride and a very long run, I’d say stick with the zones at first and see how you feel after a few hours.

    cynic-al
    Member

    Ironman? Id take it steady. The run was the hardest for me. I wanted to finish and enjoy it rather than worry about time. You don’t know how you will cope with the various disciplines, food, hydration, etc.

    TiRed
    Member

    Racing – you just go harder and deeper – that’s why it hurts!

    This.

    My (limited) off road skills keep my HR lower anyway. Gorrick 100 3 lap was 165bpm for shy of three hours and E123 road race was 174bpm for an hour. The latter killed me. Training rides are more like the off-road rides.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I averaged 178 on the new Cwmcarn trail, including all the downhills! My threshold is only 184.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
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    I’d like to get around in under 12 hours. However, on long training rides, my average speed in zone is a little low for a 6 hour split. I’m happy that I’ve pitched the other two disciplines about right. But if I knew I could get away with going above zone on the bike, I might be able to make that randomly selected 12 hour target.

    Well, 12 hours is plan A.

    Plan B is beat my mate who did it last year.

    Plan C is to not get swept up by the broom wagon.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    But if I knew I could get away with going above zone on the bike

    You won’t know til you’re half way through the bike leg I reckon.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
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    Bit too late to be finding out then.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    You don’t adjust your pace through a race?

    Premier Icon Onzadog
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    More that it’s a bloody long way to the finish if I blow up halfway around the bike leg.

    lazybike
    Member

    Get yourself over to slowtwitch… 🙂

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Sorry missed the follow up. I only went up,to HIM but even then I stuck v closely to my zones. But I am a bit if a HR zone zealot!! Always worked v well for me and I have only ever crashed and burned when I have ignored them!!

    Over an IM pacing is critical in all aspects. I adjust my stroke in the swim and cycle with one eye on cadence and HR most of the time. That and feeding!

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    More that it’s a bloody long way to the finish if I blow up halfway around the bike leg.

    That’s what I’m saying – you have to adjust as you go, partially.

    Premier Icon adsh
    Subscriber

    The time to experiment is not at a race unless it’s part of your training. Blowing up is not only agony it’s also slow.

    If your zones keep you mainly aerobic then going harder and exhausting your anaerobic store of carbohydrate greatly compromises your ability to burn fat again.

    At the moment in longer races I try to avoid racing individuals and concentrate on being as efficient as possible. Passing a shattered fast starter isn’t that rare.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
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    There’s a lot of guess work on my part for this as there aren’t any long races for me to practice in between now and the event. According to the plan, I’m supposed to do a HIM first sunday in June but I can only see one and that’s full (actually, it’s more than full, it’s oversubscribed by about 100 people).

    I’m planning on a DIY half that weekend but it’s not really going to be the same. I think the most I could hope for there is that I can relate a pace to the correct heart rate and hope the same pace on race day is sustainable.

    What I don’t want to happen on race day is end up going too slow just to keep the hrm happy.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    You could just do an IM yourself, without the swimming part. Or you could pool swim. You probably should do a few crazy efforts just to see what it’s like. Have you done the distances separately?

    To be honest though you won’t get it spot on first time. You’ll need to do at least two.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    Not sure I can get permission for two! I’ve not done all three disciplines full distance. In fact, I’ve only done the swim so far as part of this training. I’ve ridden that sort of distance in the past but at a sociable pace rather than at an effort. The swim feels very doable though.

    stevious
    Member

    My limited experience is that I can push a higher HR for longer in a race (or sportive, or whatever) but only if I’m already comfortable at the distance and have ridden it recently. Having an idea of how I should feel at 80, 90 miles or whatever gives me a yardstick for perceived effort vs fatigue. If I haven’t had that recent experience I usually just end up smashing myself to bits and having a somewhat unpleasant finish.

    dirtyrider
    Member

    ive hit 201bpm on the turbo during Sufferfest Rubber Glove, was right at the end for not very long, slider wouldnt show it but data does,

    but only 195bpm outdoors offroad,

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)

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