Woman killed as she leaned out of train window

I read this and struggled a little with the amount of time and effort that had gone into deciding that the sign that said ‘Don’t stick your head out of the window of the moving train’ was considered insufficient.

Genuinely sorry for the victim, and those affected, really I am. Horribly grim outcome.

But does every risky action need a more than cautionary sign nowadays?

Take some responsibility people!

Have a guess at what might happen if you stick your head out of the window of a moving train before sticking your head out of the window of a moving train.

If you can’t figure that out, will any sign really help?

Just remove the opening mechanism all together, surely? Rther than pontificate on the wording and colour of a sign that is perfectly sensible as it is.

AIBU?

(I sort of know the answer)

It’s utterly ridiculous. Rules by scum for scum. It’s got totally out of hand.

When I was on holiday in Austria years ago in a lovely upmarket hotel, we took the kid to the farm bit to see the animals.

You had to walk across a snow and ice covered yard
Walk up some rickety steps with snow and ice on them.
Inside there were loads of animals in stalls and loads of kids having a great time.

What smacked my gob that in the whole process there wasn’t a single warning sign. Nothing, absolutely nothing. IN the UK the whole place would have been festooned with ridiculous arse covereing signs about ice, water, handrails, rabbit shit, washing hands, bitey sheep, not washing hands because the water is too hot etc etc.

The sign is obvious. We leant out of the window on a steam train journey, but only on a curve so we could see the engine, but looked out for anything – it wasn’t moving fast – bloody obvious you don’t lean out these days.

It’s utterly ridiculous. Rules by scum for scum.

You seem reasonable and level headed. Maybe we should just leave the inquests into tragic deaths to you from now on 🙄

Tough one, agree with the conclusion though, “caution” implies take caution, watch out for oncoming trains whilst pulling funny faces, or be sensible and look out the side without oncoming trains. You take caution when you look both ways before crossing the road.

Not “branches at 75mph come up quickly and do more than hurt”.

Yep, don’t see many people leaning out of car windows and no signs there. Ideally the windows shouldn’t open but it was obviously an old train where you need to lean out the window to open the door. A bit of basic personal responsibility is needed. There’s now so many notices the important ones get buried. Something I’ve seen at work, daft signs like don’t climb inside the machinery!

Rules by scum for scum

Phew.

And yet, if there was a better sign, and that tree was trimmed, the chances are better there wouldn’t be grieving parents.

People make bad decisions all the time, where that decision comes with a reasonable risk of death then it’s probably worth reviewing the sign.

Something I’ve seen at work, daft signs like don’t climb inside the machinery!

Seen the one where the woman goes inside the meat grinder to clean it out by switching it off but bypassing the interlock so it wasnt isolated?

The back emf from one of the other machines rolling over was enough to turn it.

There is precedence set for this recently. It’s slightly ridiculous but in the end it is what it is.
It’s allied in the UK to the ‘I know my rights’ but ignoring the ‘I understand the this comes with responsibility’.

I saw 2 people painting  metal railings.

They were wearing gloves,goggles ,hard hats and hi Viz.

Can’t be too careful.

There is no sticker on my bike that says ‘trees hurt at 15mph’…. damnit !

It’s not H&S gone mad. It’s fear of litigation and the claims culture that has developed.
Austria didn’t have warning signs because the people there realise snow and ice is slippery and they could fall and get hurt if they don’t take care. However, in the UK the mentality has developed whereby people won’t take responsibility for their own actions and want to blame someone else if anything happens.
I was involved in a case a few years ago where a woman was trying to claim damages because she slipped on ice in the company carpark. She was claiming for injury (a bruised arse), the cost of cleaning her trousers that got a bit wet and a bit dirty, and for the embarrassment caused because someone saw her slip. This incident happened after she had got up an hour early in order to clear snow from her driveway at home, de-ice her car and drive very carefully to work because of the icy conditions. She apparently forgot it was sub-zero when she arrived at work though and blamed the company for her fall.

Well, the sign was insufficient, so they are right to review it.
The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all.

There is no sticker on my bike that says ‘trees hurt at 15mph’…. damnit !

Not someones place of work.

HS@W act 1975 means organisations have responsibilities to their employees and the public. Which is why you see signs saying warning forestry machinery when youre on your bike.

Pretty sure Roald Dahl and Quentin Blake covered the warning bit a few years ago?

However, in the UK the mentality has developed whereby people won’t take responsibility for their own actions and want to blame someone else if anything happens.

Pretty much sums it up. It’s an exercise in covering your arse that leads to ridiculous things like hot coffee having CAUTION HOT stamped in its receptacle.

TBH i used to think health and safety gone maaad now I’ve got a different take on it

Qatar World Cup for example;

According to a report published by the International Trades Union Confederation (ITUC) approximately 1,200 workers have already died since 2010 and the ITUC predicts that there will be at least 4,000 worker fatalities by the time the World Cup begins in 2022.

In contrast to the one I think we had on building the Olympic stuff.

Let em health and safety I say.

The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all.

The problem as I see it is that profit is put before any other consideration in privatised industries. Cost cutting in order to maximise profit means the trackside flora is no longer cut back on a regular basis and as a result trees and bushes encroach on to the tracks.

There is no sticker on my bike that says ‘trees hurt at 15mph’…. damnit !

Ah but read the user manual they usually have a few good lines in them especially the american brands.

Dove1- I agree.
Me and my mates used to stick our heads out of trains all the time.
Looking back we constantly did things that could have killed us.

The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all.

This.

The sign was arguably insufficient warning, but the problem isn’t the signage but rather that it was needed in the first place. Go to any hotel in the UK, the upper floor have windows which open three inches rather that a little sign saying “warning, do not jump out of window”.

I’m quite in favour of natural selection up to a point, if someone wants to excise themselves from the gene pool by doing something monumentally stupid like building their own moon rocket then good luck to them. But something like this where a moment’s bad judgement can end a life, well, that’s not really the same scenario.

Train company wholly culpable here IMHO. She shouldn’t have been able to do what she did.

If only she had watched this ….. it’s advice that’s worked well for me over the years

It’s an exercise in covering your arse that leads to ridiculous things like hot coffee having CAUTION HOT stamped in its receptacle.

Interesting example.

The woman in that story suffered life-threatening injuries due to spilling near-boiling coffee. The subsequent lawsuit was to try to get McD’s to pay for her medical treatment (they initially offered her a few hundred dollars to shut up and go away). The general public perception of that case is a result of a smear campaign to make her look like a bloody idiot.

In any case, this is the same point. The solution isn’t to put a warning on coffee cups – we all know coffee is hot – but rather not to serve coffee at the temperature of the sun.

Trackside foliage is cut back on a regular and scheduled basis, whilst bearing in mind nesting season and bank stability issues.  It was a clear Rule 1 violation for which she paid the ultimate price.  Where was the common sense ? It could equally have been a signal gantry, OHLE stanchion, other train that she got clipped by.  You wouldn’t stick your head out of a car on a motorway would you?

Feek with trains and they will kill you and it will hurt all the time you are dying.  People climb railway fences, ignore signage or red lights and get hit, juiced up or both and its the Railways fault that the fence isn’t high enough or the signage doesn’t give adequate descriptions of the death you will suffer.

I’ve worked on the railway for nearly 27 years and the stupidity and the idiocy of the public rivals sheep for their ability to find new and innovative ways of killing or feeking themselves up!

The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all

If you couldn’t open the window, you wouldn’t be able to open the door on arriving at your destination.

The BBC reports that RAIB found that the trees hadn’t been inspected for 9 years prior to the fatality. Sounds piss-poor. It’s not that long ago that trains crashed fairly regularly because of poorly sited signals, the drivers being blamed rather than the root cause being analysed. Maybe time that we moved on from having doors that need to be manually opened on main-line trains.

If you couldn’t open the window, you wouldn’t be able to open the door on arriving at your destination.

Yeah cos the reality is that type of shite carriage should have been consigned to the scrapper years ago.

Trackside foliage is cut back on a regular and scheduled basis,

Seems not in this case.

It’s utterly ridiculous. Rules by scum for scum. It’s got totally out of hand.

A bit dramatic. They’re in place to help protect people.

It’s tragic but people do have to accept some personal responsibility.

It was obviously an old carrige if it had that kind of window so arguably shouldn’t be in service.

That said.. It takes a special kind of idiot to stick thier head out of a train window.

The language is definitely poor, “danger” is more appropriate than “caution” which suggests “be careful” and doesn’t support/reinforce the “don’t do it” message. But it does still say “don’t do it”. (leaving aside that not everyone on the train speaks english…)

But if you should never stick anything out of the window when moving, it shouldn’t open. I know we still have some rolling stock that needs the passenger to open the door, but that’s not really a defence, since that’s a need/risk that could be removed, and has been on many trains.

Ming the Merciless

Subscriber

Trackside foliage is cut back on a regular and scheduled basis

This is from the report:

“Given that the tree had been visibly (to an expert) in poor health for around 5 years prior to the accident, it is possible that had a tree inspection been carried out and the incident tree considered for a specialist tree inspection in the 5 years prior to the accident it might have been identified as needing felling or pruning. However, Network Rail had not undertaken a tree inspection in the area of the accident since 2009 and this is possibly causal to the accident.”

The current Network Rail procedures say a tree inspection has to take place every 68 months- though I think this would have fallen under the old regime?

Also, it seems like stating the obvious but if the tree’s close enough to hit a head stuck out the window, it’s pretty damn close to hitting the train itself, and it shouldn’t be.

Keyword “might”

New growth can be quick though! Quite often I hear small twigs whipping the side of the train on my commute, granted it’s not a full on branch, but i wouldn’t fancy my chances of getting my head whipped by some twigs or tendrils at 50mph, or an on coming train if I stuck my head out the other side.

Also train windows should absolutely be able to be opened. Ever been on a rammed commute in rush hour in summer with no air conditioning?

The solution isn’t to put a warning on coffee cups – we all know coffee is hot – but rather not to serve coffee at the temperature of the sun.

I’m truly amazed and saddened that you think that is the solution. It isn’t. The solution is for people to take care of boiling hot drinks, because they are boiling hot. Not to make everyone else drink lukewarm drinks.

PS NealGlover. Good point well made. I overreacted.

revs1972

Being brought up on the Young Ones, and Reg Prescott, I probably had the benefit of picking up a few H&S tips that have set me up for life.

I’m still here, so they must have worked.

Kenny Everett

mattyfez

Member

New growth can be quick though!

Not on a dead tree.

thegeneralist

Member

I’m truly amazed and saddened that you think that is the solution. It isn’t. The solution is for people to take care of boiling hot drinks, because they are boiling hot. Not to make everyone else drink lukewarm drinks.

I think the reason that you’re amazed and saddened, is that you are still going by the kneejerk “coffee is hot” reaction, rather than the actual facts of the Liebeck case. The reason the case was succesful wasn’t that the coffee was hot, it was dangerously hot- Mcdonalds conceded that it was unsafe to drink. Her burns were far more severe than they should have been for that reason, and that’s the only reason she won (her damages were increased because Macdonalds had refused earlier, lower offers, and because they’d presented misleading evidence)

(It’s ages since I learned about it, but IIRC evidence presented showed that literally every other coffee vendor in the city that was tested, served it at least 10 degrees cooler, and that this would have made the difference between suffering 3rd degree burns in a couple of seconds, and it taking 15 seconds (ie, long enough to do something about it). She wasn’t scalded as you’d expect if you spilled coffee on yourself, she was horribly burned in seconds and needed skin grafts.

A lot of people put a lot of effort into making sure people go “but coffee is hot” after the law suit.

I’m truly amazed and saddened that you think that is the solution. It isn’t. The solution is for people to take care of boiling hot drinks, because they are boiling hot. Not to make everyone else drink lukewarm drinks.

You are aware, I’m sure, that there is something of a gap between “boiling” and “lukewarm”?

Ah, what he said. ^^

I read this and struggled a little with the amount of time and effort that had gone into deciding that the sign that said ‘Don’t stick your head out of the window of the moving train’ was considered insufficient.

I missed the bit in the article where is said how much time had been spent deciding that the signage was wrong?

Should fatalities on our railways be investigated?
If the investigator spots something that could be improved and might reduce future risk – should they highlight it?

If we spend as much time on “no blame” investigations into road traffic fatalities as we do on Air, Maritime and Rail incidents we might actually start to learn from the failures.

HS@W act 1975 means organisations have responsibilities to their employees and the public. Which is why you see signs saying warning forestry machinery when youre on your bike.

Yup. Subsequent fairly right of centre governments didn’t repeal because they realised that proper H&S actually saves organisations money.

Never mind the window, you used to be able to open the door while the train was moving.

I’m guessing a Mark 3 carriage. Not shite, saved a lot of lives in crashes, but not cheap or easy to retrofit new doors.