Molgrips is right about maintaining career options, also employer pensions etc

from what we experienced and informally what we’ve seen of friends with kids the same age, if you earn an average fulltime salary (for the most of the UK) then it’s kind of cost neutral but the career option of staying in work outweighs just chucking in

also the working parent has adult time away from the kids which does make a difference as opposed to being at home non-stop with children which can be mentally unstimulating for the parent – I’m not advocating both parents on 12hr shifts either even (though I appreciate that it’s unavoidable for some cos if there’s not much in the way of work where you live you have do to what you have to do..)

exploded

And didn’t they just! Some places are now charging to just join the waiting list.

b r – Member
Get in a nanny.

They can also take/bring-back the school aged child.

It’ll work out cheaper than you think.

Agreed (edit, and again above), we couldn’t make nursery work as well as 2 kids purely on a time basis. Due to this we looked for a nanny. Cost us about £1k / month which actually, isn’t as steep as you think as nursery fees were slightly more for 2 on 3 days / week with a bit of free time due to age of oldest.
The only problem was that suddenly, with the 2 of us working, the kids got to see me for 30mins a day in the week, and that became the same with mum as her day was as long as mine. It didn’t work as we had kids for a reason, and even though I accept that I’ll need to keep working pretty long hours, but my wife has now quit and started a self employed venture which allows a lot of flexibility for kid time.
Not sure if that helps at all!

We’ve got quite a few more than 2 kids, when we found out we were having twins (we already had a 5 year old) Mrs mitsumonkey decided to stop her job and become a child minder.
It’s not for everyone but it has worked well for us, the children have their mum at home bringing them up and we have the second wage that pays for the extras.

Depends on a lot, but if you really want a second, then JFDI – you’ll find a way to make it work when you have to. Or waste a load of time wondering if you can or not.

Hmmm, it’s is still a choice though. I’m not sure it’s wise to arrive at a decision for any lifestyle choice by saying “I’m not sure we can afford it, but **** it, we really want it so lets just do it anyway, we’re worry about the details later”.

If having a second kid means going from having a bit of spare cash to not having as much spare cash, then money probably doesn’t come in to the decision. But if you’re thinking “can we honestly afford another kid in childcare?” etc then surely this is a relevant point? You don’t want your family struggling by just because you thought “we’ve got ourselves all excited about it now so lets just do it anyway”

My mate’s wife keeps firing out kids and they don’t seem to be coping very well financially. (I’ve written off a not insignificant amount of cash I “loaned” him a while back).

Suppose if you really want another kid you’ll always find a way to make it work somehow (which is what DD said I suppose!). I still think it’s important to consider whether you can afford it though.

It really gets to me when people say things like;

deadlydarcy – Member
JFDI – you’ll find a way to make it work when you have to.

Someone would only say that who either has a decent amount of disposable income, either spare cash now or wasted cash now that will get diverted when a child comes along.

In our case people were saying to us for years that we should just do it and have a baby, you’ll find a way. We’ve never wasted money and things are fairly tight, no SKY TV, rarely going out for meals, few take aways etc.

I forecasted the cost and calculated that maternity leave on its own would mean we would spend £600 per month more than we’d be earning, nevermind all the stuff you need to accumulte to have a child, eg decorating and kitting out a nursery etc.

So we saved up, had a baby and now Mrs18 is back at work we can start to pay off a chunk we built up on a credit card because there were multiple other costs not forecasted.

If we’d have JFDI ages ago we’d have ended up not being able to pay the mortgage.

Be responsible and work it out properly, unless you’ve got the cash then fair play.

I don’t have a problem with anyone who can JFDI, but don’t tell me I can.

the working parent has adult time away from the kids which does make a difference as opposed to being at home non-stop with children which can be mentally unstimulating for the parent

I think there’s a lot in this too, works for some mums but not others. I’d rather have a part time happy mum than a full time unhappy mum.

This seems relevant:

Cost of childcare so high that it does not pay UK families to work
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/feb/19/cost-childcare-high-uk-families-work-family-childcare-trust-nursery

Crazy situation.

Does make you wonder what’s driving up the costs? Is it just a supply demand thing and they charge what they can get away with? Or is it just an expensive thing to do and the costs are going up? Insurances, training, staff, facilities, etc.

Edit… Should have read the article!

Or is it just an expensive thing to do and the costs are going up? Insurances, training, staff, facilities, etc.

I reckon is must be this, otherwise someone would have come along ages ago and offered an EasyChildcare type set up and undercut the market.

EDIT:

The report suggests that there are two reasons for the increases in prices for under-twos: in England, nurseries and childminders are putting up their prices after keeping them down during the recession, and parents are subsidising the government’s free places for disadvantaged two-year-olds.

Just get the snip in secret, then you can enjoy the ‘trying for’ process without having to worry about all these expensive consequences, not to mention back to no sleep, biking, money sex for 3-4 years.

Yes there is risk she might find out but all the rest us upside surely?

Its not just about whether its cash flow positive today but you and your wife maintaining your career. Whilst one of you may stop working as it appears cost effective the reality is in 3-5 years when you try to go back to work you have fallen far behind / cannot re-enter the workplace. You also have to factor in the relationship impact of one person not working and in fact never going back to work. My ex asked to give up work to “look after the kids” and then refused to ever go back. One of the central reasons for the divorce.

EDIT: On costs of running a nursery business, yes the costs are significant and rising due to regulations. Plus you have to have staff sickness/holiday cover etc.

an EasyChildcare type set up and undercut the market.

Tenner for the day*

.

* Additional charge of £90 is payable if your child requires food, water, nappy changes or environmental stimulus.

😆

mrblobby – Member

Does make you wonder what’s driving up the costs? Is it just a supply demand thing and they charge what they can get away with? Or is it just an expensive thing to do and the costs are going up? Insurances, training, staff, facilities, etc.

Edit… Should have read the article!

It’s a pretty mature business model – legislation says staff must have certain qualifications.

People who hold these qualification can demand £x per month for their efforts in the same way other industries work.

Legislation also limits the number of children they can care for depending on the age of the child.

By working with both those figures you can work out what childcare costs the provider – there are other fixed costs like buildings and whatnot but there’s not much in it.

I visited 4-5 nurseries before I settled on the one we used, pricing wasn’t even my top 10 list of criteria, but it didn’t matter because they were all the same +/-10% anyway.

Flexibility is one way you can save a bit, my Wife’s shifts change week to week, some of the places wanted you to book every day you needed and pay for them whether you used them or not, others were a bit more flexible – it would have cost us £900 a month to book Mon-Fri every week.

Your first child literally blows your mind right?
How could you have possibly prepared for parenthood?
How could anyone possibly have explained the reality?
It’s like you yourself are born again.. Awesome and amazing and almost unbearable

Well just when you thought it was safe to get back in the water…. along comes the second child

Mind blown again, same intensity at first then the slow realisation that it is much more intense this time and in a totally different and completely unexpected way..

If you say the first one is a handful, what on earth makes you think you’ll do a better job of raising the second one properly?

Nannies?! Jesus weep, I wish I was that well-paid.

Last time I looked they got paid £40k a year plus a Car.

Fully time in the most expensive nursery near us is £950

I forecasted the cost and calculated that maternity leave on its own would mean we would spend £600 per month more than we’d be earning, nevermind all the stuff you need to accumulte to have a child, eg decorating and kitting out a nursery etc.

Or as I said the other day, if I hadn’t had kids I could’ve been driving a Bentley Continental – rather than a Vectra 🙂

Fully time in the most expensive nursery near us is £950

Yes, now look at having 2 kids there, that’s £1900
A Nanny is about £1500
That’s (last time I looked) cheaper no?

It really gets to me when people say things like;

Really? That kind of thing “gets” to you? Jeez…

Someone would only say that who either has a decent amount of disposable income, either spare cash now or wasted cash now that will get diverted when a child comes along.

Do you know me that well? 😆

I’m not sure it’s wise to arrive at a decision for any lifestyle choice

I appreciate you’re speaking from experience of bugger-all, but it’s hardly a holiday or what merc to buy next is it?

Just get a cat

We’ve not had a foreign holiday for 5yrs and dealing with the nursery was such a joy. We are starting to have money again.

Friends have said ‘you’ll cope’. I dont want to go through life ‘coping’. I want to enjoy life (not live lavishly) but at least a bloody holiday or two.

Hmmmmm

I appreciate you’re speaking from experience of bugger-all, but it’s hardly a holiday or what merc to buy next is it?

Are you suggesting I’ve never been faced with the choice of whether or not to have a kid?

It’s not a holiday or a merc, but it is a substantial financial commitment that lasts for a VERY long time, that some parents seem to take on without a care of whether they can actually afford it.

Appreciate it’s everyone’s right to have children, but a bit of financial planning doesn’t hurt alongside the family planning. I’m just saying that it’s worth considering, which is exactly what the OP is doing.

I didn’t think you should have been allowed to breed in the first place. So at the very least can we try to keep the numbers down.

Go to Centre Parcs instead. Or a week in Magaluf

Are you suggesting I’ve never been faced with the choice of whether or not to have a kid?

I dunno. I reckon you’ve not been faced with the decision whether or not to have a second though. Or maybe you have, spreadsheeted it all out for a while, drew up some legal documents and decided it wasn’t for you.

but a bit of financial planning doesn’t hurt alongside the family planning. I’m just saying that it’s worth considering.

Which is why my subsequent post, around two or three down, said I wasn’t advocating recklessness.

binners FIVE YEARS! You’ve been to the bloody Alps in this time. I’ve been to birmingham 🙁

Family Planning- instead of firing across ‘her bows..you pull alongside and give her a broadside.

Thats usually what family planning entails. No calculator or planning……

😆

I went the alps five years ago. Thats the last foreign holiday I’ve had too. Unless you count Wales. I’ve been to Wales since then.

Welcome to parenthood. Suck it up buttercup! 😛

I dunno. I reckon you’ve not been faced with the decision whether or not to have a second though. Or maybe you have, spreadsheeted it all out for a while, drew up some legal documents and decided it wasn’t for you.

DD, I’m not saying that I wouldn’t sacrifice cars, holidays etc for a kid, more that it always puzzles me when people who are already struggling financially choose to make things even more difficult for their family without even considering that aspect of the impact.

It doesn’t have to be a deciding factor, but by at least considering it it might let you find a way to both have another kid and not be destitute.

Last time I looked they got paid £40k a year plus a Car.

Maybe if they’ve graduated from Norland and got ten years under their belt but that’s a lot more than 95% of them make.

In the south east, around £18-23k is the going rate depending on experience. The monthly cost of £22k is about £1900 once you’ve added on PAYE and NI.

That was 5yrs ago I saw a pic of you drinking dubious looking white stuff out of a stuffed goat? 😯

Scary innit?

Oh… aye oop…. here we go….. nannies? We’ve entered the middle class vortex again. Buckle up! 😆

DD, I’m not saying that I wouldn’t sacrifice cars, holidays etc for a kid

From what I read of your posts, I reckon you’re the type of guy who would indeed let it all go if a kid came on the scene. And I won’t bother patronising you (I already did and for that I apologise, honestly) with just how much one would stop giving a shit about the things one had and the stuff one did before once a baby arrives (if one is a decent sort instead of some selfish manchild who can’t give us his toys and hobbies for a while). My beef is with calling it a “lifestyle” choice. It’s a bit more than that. Yes, recklessness should be avoided but basing the decision on figures in a column seems a bit, hmmm, cold (for want of a better word) to me.

Oh… aye oop…. nannies? We’ve entered the middle class vortex again. Buckle up!

Or maybe it’s just life for a lot of regular people. That said, there isn’t a single time I make a verbal reference to our ‘nanny’ without feeling the need to add that I come from a working class northern family and we do not eat quinoa for tea every (and I can’t even pronounce it properly).

keeeennwaaaarrrr !

Yes, recklessness should be avoided but basing the decision on figures in a column seems a bit, hmmm, cold (for want of a better word) to me.

Aye, I could have worded it better, I suspect I may have used that particular STW favourite to stimulate a bit of debate…sorry 🙂

My comments weren’t so much based on my own circumstances (my situation is actually very different to how I think you see it), but more of friends around me who I see in a constant cycle of money worries and financial problems. Not for a moment suggesting that having kids is the cause, or that they should decide not to have a kid simply because they are in trouble financially, more that there may be a way to put themselves in a better position financially before having another kid, which they wouldn’t have the opportunity to do if they had another kid at that moment in time. Then again, I appreciate that life doesn’t ever work according to plan so it’s probably a moot point anyway!

I am, I admit, practical and pragmatic to the point of frustration for some (which can come across as being cold I suppose). Sometimes solutions I see as “easy” eg delaying having a kid to save some money or pay off some debt, will seem ridiculous and cold to others.

Sometimes solutions I see as “easy” eg delaying having a kid to save some money or pay off some debt, will seem ridiculous and cold to others.

If did that to pay off my debts & mortgage I’d be too old to enjoy time with my kids. Sometimes you just have to get on with it, and have your chips without the gravy.

We spent a long time “waiting till we are ready” before our first child.

Eventually we both realised that you are never really ready (or at least we wouldn’t ever be) so we JFDI.

We knew we both wanted two, but after two years a small part of us was saying “But we’ve just got ourselves stable after number one, shouldn’t we wait till we are ready?” and then we realised what we were saying and JFDI again 😀

And now life is great. No regrets!

The financial aspect is obviously a pretty big concern for most people but I think what DD, myself and some others are trying to say is make the decision first. Decide if you want another child and then start figuring out how to pay for it all if you do.

friends around me who I see in a constant cycle of money worries and financial problems. Not for a moment suggesting that having kids is the cause

See, the way I see it is that people I know who display either thrift or spendthriftiness who then go on to have kids, seem to display the same characteristics after kids, but perhaps accentuated a bit. The people I know who were always late for stuff, a bit lastminute.com about everything still are, just a bit worse. The people I knew who were organised and could be relied upon to turn up to something arranged rather than leave the house when they’re supposed to be there still do, and are even more punctual now, because they’ll almost over-prepare to get out the door in time.

I think it comes down to what kind of persons you are and how you operate as a team. If you’ve managed ok with one and not fallen through your arse financially, you probably (as in, not definitely) will manage fine with a second. Sometimes, family stuff is just a case of figuring it out as you go anyway…not that one should always be prepared for surprises and have that 3-6 months salary squirrelled away* somewhere. 🙂

* I wish 🙄

The people I know who were always late for stuff, a bit lastminute.com about everything still are, just a bit worse.

*hand up* That would be me.

Except substitute “a bit” for “much, much”!

know who were always late for stuff, a bit lastminute.com about everything still are, just a bit worse. The people I knew who were organised and could be relied upon to turn up to something arranged rather than leave the house when they’re supposed to be there still do, and are even more punctual now, because they’ll almost over-prepare to get out the door in time.

[quote]

Having three moved us from the second category to firmly in the first in one day!

Oh… aye oop…. nannies? We’ve entered the middle class vortex again. Buckle up!

Or maybe it’s just life for a lot of regular people.

I really don’t reckon you’re looking at that many people, to be honest fella. It’s definitely, like most things, a London thing. The only person I know is our kid. But she lives in central London, is a poncey medya type, lives in a house worth the same as every property in Lancashire combined, and earns the same as the GDP of Portugal.

I’d say that for the vast majority of people a nanny is about as affordable, and practical as an enormous coke habit, and a yacht to snort it on.

Having said that, if you do live in Central London then its actually cheaper to get a nanny, as the childcare is so absolutely eye-wateringly expensive. I was completely gobsmacked when she told me how much nurseries charge. 😯 And she had 2 nursery age kids, and not working was not an option.

She told me this in defence of her nanny-employing, after an incredulous reaction from our entire (northern working class) family, followed by a deluge of merciless piss-taking.

I’m presuming you get/got the same grief? 😀