I reckon this question was asked when some bright spark stuck a petrol engine in a bike in the 19th C.
E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike and are symptomatic of our bloody lazy society that wants everything easy. The cycling version of just eat!
Ride one of the monstrosities if you like but don’t try to pretend you are cycling! 🙂

E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike and are symptomatic of our bloody lazy society that wants everything easy.

Well, I have to pedal mine or it doesn’t go, it weighs around 24kg whereas my GasGas weighs around 110kg
It puts out 250watts whereas the GasGas puts out 41Kw
It handles pretty much the same as my regular MTBs.
It’s fairly quiet.

So yeah, Ebikes are just like motorbikes.

E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike

There’s a definitive list of the similarities right here- LINK

E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike

As someone who used to race moto enduro’s at British, European and World levels I see no similarities at all apart from they both have two wheels.
At no point when I’ve been out on my Ebike have I thought, this is just like the bikes I used to race think I’ll enter the ISDE again.
What I have thought though is Oooh this is like having a personal uplift so I can ride more interesting descents in the same time I can on my other bikes.
Motorbikes require you to be much fitter to ride fast offroad.
Motorbikes are much harder to ride down steep, tight twisty trails.
You can’t just get off and carry a motorbike uphill if it’s to steep/techy for you.
So nothing like a motorbike then.

That’s a weirdly exclusive attitude.

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against ebikes.. I get them, I really do.
They do look great fun and I see all the benefits. I will try one, one day.

My observed (although maybe somewhat limited to only a few areas) skill/confidence level of the riders is probably the issue.

I saw a teenager on a hire ebike only last weekend flying round blind corner to nearly take out a family group the other day. He was riding like a loony just before that incident. I suspect if they were on a classic bike they would have not been going so fast.
I’ve seen this quite a few times.

The same for the casual late 50’s married couple, I see loads of them on my local trail. They look sooo nervous on the ebike and they crap themselves at any hint of danger, other riders wanting to overtake, a dog running around in front of them, etc etc.

If the bike shop did not have massive flags saying ‘hire your ebike today!’ then these two groups would probably be on a classic bike, and maybe more in-control, basically just slower allowing them more time to react to any normal public trail.

I’m positive that in the right hands/feet an ebike is just perfect. But seem to end up with the wrong group of people with zero cycle experience, sometimes, from what I have seen..

I’m talking Grafham Water.

I’m not saying everyone who owns an ebike fits my observed demographic.

You are clearly the exception that I would enjoy seeing on the trail as I’m sure you ride courteously and would say hello with a knowledgable nod to another ‘seasoned’ MTB’er. 😉

From my observation round here, it’s either teenagers hiring and riding them like they just stole it, weaving down the trail, skidding and just generally being a nuisance.
Or middle aged husband & wife tourists doing 5mph on their new his and hers ebikes, riding 2 abreast and getting completely spooked by my very polite, clear and well in advance warning that another rider wants to pass. They just slam the brakes and wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail.

I stay away from the lake trails now during peak times and stick to the off piste.

I’m sure that 5 years ago these guys would have found something else to do and I’m not saying they should keep off the trails, not at all.
But maybe the easy access benefit of ebikes has opened up the sport to folk who don’t have the wider skill set to deal with the trails and other users.

Gaffham water? FFS I was doing laps of that on my CX bike last month as I was working up the road. The biggest problem? Other gravel/CX bikes. Didn’t see a single e-bike actually (probably because it was always >6pm).

Wearing down the trails? Come on……… The worst bit is the bit i the SW corner where it seems like someone dumped a lot of gravel at the top of the hill and bikes all ride down the strip in the verge of the field. The rest of it is pretty much a perfect surface.

Traffic? They’d wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail even on normal bikes, it’s an electric motor not electric brakes. And it’s the archetypal family country park type trail, not a trail center, what kind of riders did you expect! Grafham water requires a skill level somewhere around being able to ride a balance bike and/or stabilisers.

I don’t like the idea of e-bikes particularly. But if I was going to expect them to be popular anywhere, it’s Grafham/Rutland/Tissington/other tourist attraction cycle trails.

I’m sure that 5 years ago these guys would have found something else to do

Segway tours and pit bikes depending on demographic.

An inexperienced rider is still inexperienced regardless of the bike. The difference is maybe that they wouldn’t ride at all if it wasn’t for e-bikes, so you’re seeing more of them now.

Maybe I relate to this more because I’ve only been mountain biking a couple of years but I remember my first few rides out on proper trails having people tearing up behind me wanting to pass. It’s unnerving and I totally understand why people behave unpredictably when they’re not sure what to do. The trails are there for everyone and you’ll never learn those kinds of skills pootling around on fire roads.

Didn’t see a single e-bike actually (probably because it was always >6pm).

Agreed yes, because the big signs advertising ebike hire has been taken down and the shop closed for the day.
During the day there’s plenty buzzing about.

Wearing down the trails? Come on………

I never mentioned anything about wearing down trails.

They’d wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail even on normal bikes,

Yes, but I doubt they would even be there if it was not for the ebike though.

Grafham water requires a skill level somewhere around being able to ride a balance bike and/or stabilisers.

Yes fully agree, but I still see people crashing into each other and toppling over.
I was approaching an elderly couple (on ebikes) the other afternoon (Grafham Water is on my commute home) I saw them a mile off, slowed right down and pulled over, between me and them was a dog walker with a lively dog running about, they both panicked and crisscrossed all around in confusion, one buzzed the others tyre and there was nearly an accident at like 3mph.. We all had a giggle about when I asked if they were OK.
If it wasent for the ebike (they said they hired them), they would not have been there.

But if I was going to expect them to be popular anywhere, it’s Grafham/Rutland/Tissington/other tourist attraction cycle trails.

I can’t agree more. Made more popular over the last year with the addition of ebike sales/hire at the main car park, no doubt.

There was a thread on here a while back, a member was posting his annoyance of ebikes at trail centres, buzzing past on the climbs, sitting on your back wheel, no skill level to get down safely etc etc.
The consensus was not the ebikes, it was the riders. Same here.
The end result was take your riding to lesser known trails where there are less tourists on ebikes. Same goes for Grafham/Rutland/Tissington. I do that.

I’m not poking at experienced riders on ebikes. I’m purely stating that my opinion is ebikes bring more people to the trails, and a number of these new cyclists are without skills, confidence or intelligence to safely navigate around even a flat tourist attraction cycle trail, let alone a proper trail centre.

EBIKES are great. I can ride mine with full power on, going like batshit. I can ride it with 20-50% assistance for a recovery ride, or if I want a proper work out, ride with my mates on non-ebikes with the power off. This is bloody hard work but I have got so much fitter than them that riding a normal bike is like cheating. What’s not to like?

Even if we take an ELECTRIC motorbike, they are very, very different beasts.

0-50mph in 4.5 seconds.

Try that on a (legal) pedal assist e-bike. Hell, try it on an unrestricted pedal assist e-bike.

They both have 2 wheels with knobble tyres. They both have suspension. Both have handlebars and a seat. The same!! 😀

In that respect, a ford fiesta is the same as an F1 car. 4 smooth wheels, suspension, at least 1 seat, and a steering wheel. 😀

Try comparing a 450/500cc enduro bike to an MTB and… nah.

And to add, if I lived somewhere with big climbs and big descents, I’d definitely consider an e-bike.

I got passed by one at the weekend on the Friston forest fireroad climb, which is 1.5 miles long, 400ft upwards, takes me 13 minutes or so at 6-7mph average. At the weekend I managed 5 full climbs and descents, a total of 18 miles, 2400ft climbing. We exchanged a cheery hello as he glided up the hill, with me looking lustfully at his bike for a few seconds before continuing my winch upwards.

if I lived somewhere with proper hills where the climbs were 800ft, 1000ft, or 1500ft, and the descents were the same, rather than 400ft and 10 minutes, yep, I’d get one. Sod riding uphill for 40 minutes, to do a 15 minute downhill, then having to do the same again, for just 2 runs in a couple of hours.

thisisnotaspoon

Gaffham water? FFS

😆

I was approaching an elderly couple (on ebikes) the other afternoon (Grafham Water is on my commute home) I saw them a mile off, slowed right down and pulled over, between me and them was a dog walker with a lively dog running about, they both panicked and crisscrossed all around in confusion, one buzzed the others tyre and there was nearly an accident at like 3mph.. We all had a giggle about when I asked if they were OK.
If it wasent for the ebike (they said they hired them), they would not have been there.

Swap “Grafham water” for any riderside towpath/cycle path, country park or similar, and any walkers, cyclists, dog walkers and so on.

e-bikes are doing their job, getting people outside on a bike who would otherwise be sat at home watching mindless TV. I constantly have groups of people see me, hear me (timber bell) and still carry on walking abreast the path, then when they decide they need to make some room, they always split, one on one side, one on the other.. why! 😀

I’ve had dog walkers on trails, and the most friendly, but stupid dogs standing sideways across the trail whilst I’m there trackstanding for all my life, haha. The dogs then decide the want to come with me before the owners call them back, we all have a chuckle 20 seconds later it’s forgotten about. Nice fast rocky descent ahead of me, 2 horses coming up, I choose to wait for 5 minutes and enjoy the view before hurtling down the descent. trail centre red trail, a family out with 2 little ones, the kids getting pushed and willed up a climb, I take my time and politely ask to get by and they allow me, I say to the kid as I pass “you can do it! and he gives me a thumbs up.

We all share the trails for the most part, whether it’s other riders, horses, walkers, dogs, deer, squirrels, whatever. Makes no odds whether it’s a child on a balance bike who’s not fully in control, or an 80 year on an e-bike who’s also not quite in control.

Doesn’t matter if you’re on a mtb, an e-mtb, a gravel bike, an enduro motorbike.

For me, seeing more people out on bikes, electric or not, is a good thing. Our sport is a very niche thing – in my immediate area of 30 people at work, 1 other person ‘mountain bikes’ and that’s a loose term.

@seosamh77

Exactly. It’s flat as a runway.!
People flock there on a sunny day to hire an ebike and crash into each other.
The bike shop there has 2 floors, the downstairs probs has 40+ ebikes for sale.
There is even a road sign a mile away: ‘Hire an ebike today!’

On the other hand, it’s a nice, fast, 30min gravel bike hack at night/early morning when all those folk are not there.

sooty and jim, my forum name is about 15 years old i reckon( there was a US branded bike i lusted after at the time ). still only around 70kg which isnt bad for my age height 🙂

medlow. glad you see that now everyone one on an ebike is a poor cyclist. those people you talk of would be poor cyclists without a motot by the sounds of it, just slower

@sofaking
Just think how much better trips to the Golfie would feel though if you suffered on the climbs and only did half the amount of descending.
Your arms and upper body wouldn’t ache half as much if you cut down on the number of descents you did in a day.😉

Oh how i missed those painful, climbs this time around

Grafham Water Cycle Track

I just watched the whole 45 minutes

medlow

Member

@seosamh77

Exactly. It’s flat as a runway.!
People flock there on a sunny day to hire an ebike and crash into each other.
The bike shop there has 2 floors, the downstairs probs has 40+ ebikes for sale.
There is even a road sign a mile away: ‘Hire an ebike today!’

On the other hand, it’s a nice, fast, 30min gravel bike hack at night/early morning when all those folk are not there.

You should be sheepishly walking away from this thread..

Give up, find better trails! 😆

“…Grafham Water Cycle Track…”

Gnarly!

Apparently the UCI is planning to hold a round of the EWS there next season due to its hucktastic and super sweet lines.

Definitely somewhere you need an uplift or e-bike if you want more than a couple of runs.

With bikes like this coming out my own personal tipping point is going to be sooner than I thought.

I could do some immense, after work, weekday rides on of these things.

^^^ and that there is what is going to happen I reckon.

Take Formula one. Let us imagine that in 5 years time sales of new electric vehicles and Hybrids are still rising rapidly. Ferrari and Mercedes make the decision to switch their racing to the E-formula. What happens to F1? It will continue on for sure, selling itself as the only pure form of racing, the original, best, most exciting form of motor racing, blah blah…. Meanwhile the high profile teams moving to the E-Formula give even more impetus to the sales of E-vehicles to the public. A tipping point has been crossed.

Now think of your normal MTB rides with your mates. First off you lose a couple of your group to the E-bike crowd. You’re not bothered. But then a few more move over and before you know it, there is just you and the chap from accounts who never talks left. And eventually you need a new bike. What are you going to buy?

I guess that is how I envisage the E-bike tipping point. A certain momentum is reached whereby we will have to justify to ourselves NOT buying an E-bike, rather than justify buying one. There will always be people for whom an analogue bike will be their only choice, but I think there will be far more people for whom an E-bike will be their first choice.

And I think this point in time is a lot closer than many want to admit.

The terrain in that KTM video ^^^^ has to be some of the most boring that I’ve ever seen. If that was the only place I had to ride I wouldn’t bother….

First off you lose a couple of your group to the E-bike crowd. You’re not bothered. But then a few more move over and before you know it, there is just you and the chap from accounts who never talks left. And eventually you need a new bike. What are you going to buy?

Bang on ^^^. This is what’s going to get people. No one will want to be the last bloke in a big social group still using his puny human legs, blowing out his ring on every climb and having everyone standing around waiting for him.

In a few years a ‘normal’ mountain bike will be electrified.

Not sure how it will affect me as I’m a billy no mates. I’d have one out of curiosity but I’d have to buy one for my girlfriend as well which makes a big purchase even bigger.

seosamh77

You should be sheepishly walking away from this thread..

Why, I can’t see why.

I said it’s a “fast, 30min gravel bike hack at night/early morning” and useful addition to a long bridleway loop around the area as it joins many of them up.
Ride it flat out and it’s actually a giggle because of the speed it offers (when it’s empty).

I have used that location as an example to add context.

Give up, find better trails!

Yes I did and have. I mentioned that earlier that you may have missed. I head off onto the bridleways. Sad to say there are no gnarly trails round this way. 🙁

The point of this thread was a discussion about ebikes and if they are reaching a tipping point…
I have explained my observations that the increase of them is very noticeable around here, especially at the location I used as the example because of the ‘family fun’ nature of it… Regardless of your opinion of the place my observation still stands.

So to answer the OP’s question. I feel yes, ebikes are nearly ready to take the majority. If not now, maybe in a few years.?

The local shop with flags, roadside signs advertising them and selling them like hot cakes must be a factor in that..
It has brought a new group of riders into cycling that maybe would have not bothered before, they will be recommending them to friends/family too.
The number of riders on here who praise, and use them is another sign they are coming more popular..

I’ll be getting one when I’m less able to pedal for whatever reason, no doubt.. And I’ll be joining the other fellow ebikers on that sick trail. 🙂

I managed to dislocate my shoulder at Grafham Water last year

#skillz

There was a thread on here a while back, a member was posting his annoyance of ebikes at trail centres, buzzing past on the climbs, sitting on your back wheel, no skill level to get down safely etc etc.
The consensus was not the ebikes, it was the riders. Same here.

I think that’s a completely different scenario though. The concern with that was you could get families hiring an e-bike at a trail center or keswick and finding themselves at the top of helvellyn. You could do that on a normal bike but it’s more likely that in the process of getting fit enough to do a 40+ mile ride you’d put in enough time to learn how to fix a puncture and snapped chain, navigate with a map, prepare for the weather, ride the features on the trails and everything else that comes with time/experience.

That and e-bikers often seem to have a politeness bypass when they bypass the speed limiter. Although it might just be that the only people doing much overtaking are e-bikers so you just see the arseholes more often.

I didn’t think anyone would have issue with e-bikes for “leisure” cycling. And you never know, after wobbling around Grafham water they might give a cyclist a bit more room when overtaking on the way home incase they wobble.

I’ll be getting one when I’m less able to pedal for whatever reason, no doubt.. And I’ll be joining the other fellow ebikers on that sick trail. 🙂

I’ll just continue lapping ye then! 😆

How much is that Commencal though?

Probably 5k minimun. Personally, paying that for a bike that will break down a lot (my experience of ebikes), is a no.

I’m curious how many projections of imminent e-bike dominance are based on the assumption that the prices will fall significantly. Maybe that’s the case but if the demand for the materials required for the batteries is only going to rise I wonder how that will affect what is mainly a pretty frivolous use – at least as far as leisure e-bikes is concerned.

How much is that Commencal though?

I think that alone is why we don’t need to worry about mountain biking as a sport disappearing.

I got flack for it earlier, but those bikes are stealing sales from S-works Enduros, not your average rider.

That and why would you buy a CRF/WRF/EXC/DRZ dual sport motorbike to ride green lanes* in this country anymore, there just aren’t enough green lanes left. When you can buy a Kenevo and have the same sort of fun at BPW, Glentress, Swinley, or pretty much anywhere with a bridleway and/or trail. It’s not the same, but it’s the next best thing. I’d love a KTM 6-day 500 EXC, for about a day, then I’d have ridden every legal trail with a tank range of my house, sell it and get a Kenevo.

*of whatever designation before the pedants point out that green lanes don’t exist.

I’m curious how many projections of imminent e-bike dominance are based on the assumption that the prices will fall significantly. Maybe that’s the case but if the demand for the materials required for the batteries is only going to rise I wonder how that will affect what is mainly a pretty frivolous use – at least as far as leisure e-bikes is concerned.

Negligible. Lithium isn’t like oil, there’s more lithium to be mined than we will ever need. The limiting factors are the mining companies scaling up extraction and refining and the political will to engage in open cast mining. And once everyone has an electric car and powerbank at home, the need for more drops off massively. So you only need enough, not an unlimited amount as unlike other recyclables it’ll be too expensive to ever just bin.

That and I don’t think prices will drop significantly. The motors are moderately complex devices and probably more likely to stick at the current price points and improve weight, sealing, torque, etc. The batteries are comparable costs per Wh to other devices and inside the plastic cases probably quite generic so there’s not much to be improved there.

Been out all day in the Dolomites and done over 1000m of climbing on the Enduro with blazing sun and temp in the high 30s. Used some of the lifts in addition to the climbing. Rode some awesome trails and full on DHs.
Sat back at the van chilling with a beer and thinking that the Levo would have tackled it all just as good.

’ll just continue lapping ye then!

Yep.. most probs.. i’m hardly a whippet by any means.

I got flack for it earlier, but those bikes are stealing sales from S-works Enduros, not your average rider.

I don’t think they are stealing sales from anything tbh. Before I converted my hardtail, I’d all but given up biking.

i actually actively looking to buy a gravel bike the now to supplement the ebike that’d I’d never bought if I didn’t convert.

So I don’t think they are shrinking the market at all, increasing the market is the only outcome I can see.

I also don’t think the bike market is anywhere near saturation point in any discipline. So far as I’m concerned. it’s all good.

It’s also not like they are entirely different form the bike market either, it’s the same stuff minus the motor that goes on them..

I wouldn’t be worrying about any options disappearing from the bike market any time soon.

Even 26 is still alive, as is 7/8/9/10 speed! 😆

The market just gets bigger and changes!

And once everyone has an electric car and powerbank at home, the need for more drops off massively.

Just like the demand for mobile phones dropped off massively once pretty much everyone had one?)

More lithium, not more bikes