Have we done Mumsnet’s cyclists argument?

  • This topic has 256 replies, 78 voices, and was last updated 3 months ago by  geex.
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  • Have we done Mumsnet’s cyclists argument?
  • scotroutes
    Member

    most important of all smiling and making eye contact with, thanking and greeting pedestrians and drivers when passing raises my image out of the “cyclist” group stereotype and humanises me more to onlookers.

    It definitely gets me compliments and smiles back

    I was out riding the A86 at the weekend. Its a bit busy and a bit windy in places so I like to keep my wits about me. I heard a very sporty car approaching fast behind me, looked around to see this flash of blue TVR and gave a big grin.

    30 minutes or so later I saw the same car coming towards me and got a friendly wave off the driver. The way you react to folk when you’re cycling definitely has a feedback effect.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    I lack empathy for trivial issues. You know very little about psychology, and you’ll learn very little trying to work me out.

    Genuine question, are you autistic?

    pondo
    Member

    Nope

    Are you at least aware that a phenomena called road rage exists, even if you’re as blissfully free of it as you are empathy?

    We’re talking about people like you and your friends/families odd perception of viewing something that doesn’t even affect you and becoming angered by it.

    You are not afraid of a sweeping generalisatioon, are you? Which is ironic, as that’s where we came in.

    I don’t ride dangerously or put anyone’s safety at risk.

    I’m sure people in cars who jump red lights would say much the same thing.

    taxi25
    Member

    No. what exactly about it angers them?
    It doesn’t even make sense to become angered by it. Nevermind passionately.
    I guess you can’t actually even explain. Can you?

    I’ll have a stab, MG touched on it but what makes drivers angry when the see RLJ cyclists ect is fear. Discount the odd lunatic but people in general just want to go about their buisness and get home safely. The last thing they want to do is get involved in an accident that causes themselves or others harm. A cyclist running lights whealing bla,bla, bla is in their minds unpredictable and that makes them alarming and frightening mistly because they think they might knock them off.
    People’s second reaction to being frightened is to get angry as part of the flight or fight response.
    Try it, go up behind someone and startle them, first they jump then they want to punch you.

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    It doesn’t even make sense to become angered by it.

    I thought you claimed to be “pretty well read/informed on the subject of psychology”. Yet you seem to be ignorant of a number of cognitive biases at the same time as displaying plenty yourself.

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    Try it, go up behind someone and startle them, first they jump then they want to punch you.

    Because they’ve been startled, or because they’ve realised it’s Geex? 🙂

    (sorry, couldn’t resist)

    tpbiker
    Member

    This third scenario is incredibly rare on the road.

    Eh..no it’s not..

    And for what it’s worth if I saw someone wheelying along the road during the daily commute my first thought would be ‘what a nobber’. A quick poll of my work colleagues confirms I wouldn’t be alone in this reaction.

    Geex probably wouldn’t realise the reaction he’s actually getting however as he does strike me as having a fairly astounding lack of self awareness. That or he is just a great troll. I’m undecided on which one it is.

    And for what it’s worth if I saw someone wheelying along the road during the daily commute my first thought would be ‘what a nobber’.

    Not just the commute. Aside from a few very specific trail obstacles* I think that about all unneccessary wheelying. On road or off, cycle or motorbike.

    I always wonder if they do it when nobody is around to see it, but alas, just like the refrigerator light, I will never know.

    *and impressing 13 year old girls. Which shouldn’t really be done by anyone over the age of 14 or so.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    I just bunny hopped off a kerb and the three women watching became pregnant instantly, such was my awesomeness. Geex was right!

    kerley
    Member

    Genuine question, are you autistic?

    I would guess psychopathic rather than autistic based on heavy narcissism, can’t be criticized etc,.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    if I saw someone wheelying along the road during the daily commute my first thought would be ‘what a nobber’. A quick poll of my work colleagues confirms I wouldn’t be alone in this reaction.

    Hi, just to say- I see it often on my commute: Schoolboys every single time. (I smile and do not think ‘nobber’). But they are kids.

    Carry on.

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    You also have absolutely no clue whether my actions have ever antagonised anyone or instilled a single negative memory nevermind *fermented* negative behaviour.

    Well, there’s at least six pages of clues right here…

    johnx2
    Member

    so I read back and found:

    I don’t consider myself a cyclist. Just someone who loves riding bikes and does it a lot.
    On my commute each way I jump 19 red lights, ride 4 pavements and hop on and off a few more and on the way in I ride one quiet one way street (Lane) the wrong way.
    All of the above is done safely. No one is ever in danger from my actions and no one is inconvenienced in the slightest.
    **** blindly obeying the law when the law is stupid, ill thought out and actually more dangerous than not obeying it.
    Cycle lane planning is a complete joke here and quite a few are just plain dangerous if you stick to the advised cycle lanes/filters etc.

    …and thought that was pretty much my london commute back in the pre-congestion charge day –
    minus wheelies, manuals, endos etc, mainly because I can’t do them – and it seemed pretty appropriate at the time. Where I live now it would feel a bit more conspicuous and I’m generally in less of a hurry.

    I started out obeying the highway code and gradually learned not to, albeit not quite going full courier.

    I always wonder if they do [wheelies] when nobody is around to see it

    I feel bad that you’ve clearly never experienced the weightless feeling of a perfectly balanced wheelie. Because if you had, you would understand that they’re just really fun. And yeah, I do wheelies when no one can see. Because wheelies are ace.

    geex
    Member

    no Bob I’m not autistic.
    Why would it matter to you if I was?
    All I’m doing here here is being honest.
    It’s odd how most NTs struggle so much with this

    the Aspie people I know best (very well) have more empathy than me.
    I’m not sure you understand autism.

    geex
    Member

    Pondo. you haven’t even begun to understand anything.
    I know there’s a thing called road rage and it’s absolutely ridiculous that anyone get’s themselves that wound up over trivial road issues. Please don’t try to justify road rage just because you and your family/friends can’t keep calm at the sight of a “cyclist” passing safely through a red light.

    Taxi. I haven’t frightened a single person.

    today I manualled (safely, putting no one in danger or scaring anyone) past a guy on an old GT hardtail. When I stopped at the next set of lights he smiled and said hello. I reciprocated as always. He then preceded to ask me about my bike and where I rode so I pulled onto the pavement and had a nice 5 minute chat about bikes and riding with him. Turned out he’d had a nice full sus but it’d been nicked and a mate had lent him the old GT.
    It was in pretty good nick for a 15+ year old hardtail so I complimented it and agreed how shit it feels to have any bike stolen.
    Yeah… Ok. he’s probably pregnant now but everyone loves my kids so it’s a win win init?

    a little later on the two occupants of a convertible sports car cheered me and plenty other folk smiled as I wheelied up most of the hills on the second part of my journey.

    cool stray bra

    I hate endos. they’re ugly AF unless you spin off the front wheel to rear wheel and complete a 360 and ride off.

    Unnecessary wheelies? WTAF?
    the entire pastime of riding a bike is unnecessary.

    geex
    Member

    I have another cool story from today.
    approaching a red at a traffic light controlled crossroads this morning a very prim well to do looking woman on an upright city bike was stopped at the front waiting to turn right. The next light in the sequence was a green man on all 4 crossings. She dismounted, crossed the pedestrian crossing to her right then the next one and when safely over preceded to re-mount her bike and ride off before the original right turn light had time to turn green.
    Did anyone lose their shit over this blatant flouting of the law? No. I don’t think so.
    Was anyone scared? No. I really don’t think it scared anyone at all.
    now I was also turning right. The only difference is I didn’t dismount or follow the pedestrian crossing lanes. I simply took a right turn while all the traffic lights were on Red and were staying red easily long enough for me to ride safely and without inconveniencing anyone. (because of the pedestrian green).
    This made the right turn far safer for both of us.

    Personally I think anyone losing their shit over either of us not obeying the law is way more of a psychopath than me.
    Blindly following rules that make no sense seems pretty mental to me too.

    to all the Keyboard psycologists.. I’ve spent more than enough enough time in the company of actual qualified clinical psychologists and psychiatrits. Your dignosis is way off..
    you’re also blowing the whole situation out of all proportion.
    you’re not hearing what you want to so you start name calling… that does nothing so you put me down as having a mental disorder for simply being honest and not afraid to think for myself.

    geex
    Member

    The reality is. Most road ragers losing their shit over a bike passing through a red light.
    are actually angry because the bike rider managed to proceed while they’re stuck in their tin box.
    They’re not scared. They’re enraged because they feel cheated.

    riding a bike dangerously, inconsiderately or inconvenienctly is another matter entirely.

    geex
    Member

    Kerley. You can criticise me all you want. It’s pretty much the only thing you reply to me here to do. It doesn’t make you right.

    Kryton. There isn’t a single instance I’ve mentioned in this thread where I’ve “antagonised” anyone.

    kerley
    Member

    Kerley. You can criticise me all you want. It’s pretty much the only thing you reply to me here to do. It doesn’t make you right.

    It is hard to reply anything else to your posts. I have feedback how they come across and I am not alone as many others have yet you don’t accept that.

    It isn’t about anyone being right. I break a law every single time I ride my bike, one of my bikes is not even road legal. I am no better than you in that regard, however I don’t boast about it and keep saying how awesome I am for doing it.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    go on then mol

    explain why it makes sense to be angered by it?

    Explain why it makes sense to keep having these stupid acrimonious arguments on the internet 🙂

    geex
    Member

    Where have I boasted? Or said I’m awesome?
    I’ve simply replied to the topic truthfully.
    You do realise any “babies/pregnancy” refs are actually humour, eh?

    kerley
    Member

    Where have I boasted? Or said I’m awesome?

    Half of you posts are you saying how much better you are than others, they are too weak etc,.
    Sounds like you ae not intentionally doing that but I can assure you that is how it comes across (as it does for others hence all the comments from people about how awesome you are)

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Where have I boasted? Or said I’m awesome?

    pondo
    Member

    Please don’t try to justify road rage….

    Oh I’m sorry, I never meant to do that – please show me where I did so I can correct it.

     Most road ragers losing their shit over a bike passing through a red light.
    are actually angry because the bike rider managed to proceed while they’re stuck in their tin box.

    So is that an acknowledgement that person on bike RLJ can sometimes equal angry person in car?

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    Kryton. There isn’t a single instance I’ve mentioned in this thread where I’ve “antagonised” anyone.

    I’m referring to your comments in the thread about

    a) your blatant disregard for the law whilst however safe and independent you think it is, provokes an anti cyclist reaction from the watching drivers affecting the rest of us at a later time.   It also provides a poor example to others who are perhaps less able to make the same judgements as you safely e.g. watching kids.

    b) as above, whether you realise it or not your self effacing humour comes across as bragging at best.  Now, I’m not blaming you for that because some time ago I took advice from a forum poster about my own content and style which was a direct outpouring of my brain at the time, and chose to moderate how I write for the benefit of others which actually helped me converse in STW with a lot less stress, but perhaps you’d like to have a think about what’s being said, and you might then not receive the responses you are.

    c) and with reference to a), if we do refer to “anyone” being anyone who has experience of seen your cycling methods, you have no evidence other than ignorance or non involvement to base that on   I suspect there’s been a fair few people wound up about your cycling exploits yet just haven’t expressed that to you.  I can no more prove that than you can the opposite, so stop repeating it at lib as it does not adhere people to you.

    Thats intend to be helpful, I’m not here for an argument tbh..

    johnx2
    Member

    person on bike RLJ can sometimes equal angry person in car?

    It probably can sometimes. On the other hand, when I’m driving and front of the queue at a red and a person on a bike filters in front of me, and then the pedestrian crossing light goes, and rather than moving off safely and sensibly the PoaB (can I say cyclist?) ostentatiously sits there, or does a shite wobbly track stand, waiting for the light to go green before moving off, and can only be overtaken safely when well clear of the junction… That slows the cars passing through said junction. I mean I suspect my testosterone levels are too low for me to get cross about much these days, but it does look a bit daft compared to some sensible anticipation…

    butcher
    Member

    I’m quite impressed every time I see anyone do a wheelie. I can’t do them for shit. There was a time when I could do endos though, one-handed and everything.

    I actually think Geex has a point, even if he does take it to extremes. Riding a bike should be seen for what it is, a simple, fun and leisurely activity. Something that a child can do – and should be doing! Not something that requires advanced driver training, expensive safety equipment, registration, insurance and road tax, as many of the British public would have you believe.

    Pedestrians break the rules and do unpredictable things all day long yet don’t summon the vitriol that cyclists get. Because cyclists are grouped into a category with large and powerful vehicles they have little in common with – they’re really pedestrians on wheels (See also skateboards, hoverboards, etc). And this is the entire problem, they’re really grouped into a category they don’t belong yet expected to behave as per that category suggests.

    You can go to the Netherlands, and cycling there can be quite chaotic at times. Especially in the big cities like Amsterdam. But it works. It’s no different to negotiating busy streets on foot. This is where you follow a social contract and act with a fair amount of consideration. For bicycles in the UK however, I think that social contract needs to be redefined before they get pushed further into a category they do not belong.

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    when I’m driving and front of the queue at a red and a person on a bike filters in front of me

    Personally I’ve never understood why people want to do that (well, no—I do, I’m just maybe surprised that so many people don’t find it makes their life worse). It just means you end up going through the junction with someone behind you who (a) has the “must get past” bait of a clear road in front of them and (b) is probably at least mildly peeved by having had someone pull in front of them while they were waiting. I’m much more comfortable with being in the middle of the lane behind at least one car.

    To be fair, it’s also illegal, assuming the person doing it passes the stop line. And on a motorbike (which is just as common) it’s illegal even before that, since you can’t pass the vehicle at the front of the queue if you’re in/on a motor vehicle.

    johnx2
    Member

    You don’t filter? That’s even worse,😁.

    I usually swoop in from the right, but there’s often a cycle lane along the curb which can be used and then a box for bikes in front of the car stop line.

    jonm81
    Member

    Did anyone lose their shit over this blatant flouting of the law?

    But this lady didn’t flout the law. She dismounted and is therefore a pedestrian, used the pedestrian crossing then remounted and rode off once through the junction. All perfectly within the law.

    You on the other hand…..

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    You don’t filter? That’s even worse

    It depends.

    If I’m clearly going to get through on the next phase of the lights then there’s absolutely no point in filtering: it just means I get passed more. Each pass carries some element of risk so the fewer the better.

    If it looks like I’m going to be waiting a while then I might filter. For example, leaving work there’s often a queue for half a mile. That’s worth filtering (there’s a convenient yellow box about 50 yards back from the lights which is a near-guaranteed place to safely pull in behind a car and get through the next phase). Riding along roads like Southwark Street in London, which are often packed solid, I tend to filter as well. The considerations are a little different.

    So, yeah, in some situations there’s no point sitting in someone’s exhaust fumes for ages when one of the benefits of a bike is the ability to slip through urban areas easily.

    But my default is not to filter, because most of the times I find myself at some lights, it offers no benefit at all.

    Over the last few months I’ve noticed my belly getting bigger. I thought it was just because I’m a fat, lazy bastard but, having read this thread, I’ve realised that, at the start of the year,  I saw a  dude on a bike popping a wheelie through some traffic lights.

    Could I be pregnant?

    johnx2
    Member

    Could I be pregnant?

    Were you wearing bicycle clips at the time?

    (Reduces risk of ’em swimming up your leg… Something we’d say of a mate bitd whose swimmers clearly had some power behind them, striking it unlucky as he did three times in a couple of years in the lottery of love. He hardly cycles these days mind, which is probably just as well.)

    pondo
    Member

    It probably can sometimes.

    As much as Geex would like to deny that his RLJ antics have ever antagonised anyone, road rage is a “thing” – a largely pointless, dangerous and illogical “thing”, but a “thing” nonetheless. I’m pretty sure people get annoyed at cyclists (sorry – persons on bikes) jumping red lights in much the same way as they get annoyed at car drivers running ambers or reds, or pushing in or what have you – pretty sure (and Geex will know best with his psychology background) that a lot of it is related to both territoriality and the difficulty in reading the emotions of the other person, so someone who’s prone to road rage, if someone pulls in rather closely in front of them, will be inclined to read it as a “f*** you” and respond with anger, when it might be that they’ve just misjudged the gap, lost their way, or going to hospital to visit a sick relative and not fully paying attention to what’s around them.

    The problem for me as a person occasionally on a bike is that, as much as we’re all people on bikes and not cyclists, to a car driver (or a person in a car, if you prefer) we belong to a single subset and the actions of one influence their opinions of all members of that subset.

    Geex, just for clarity I’m not saying any of this because I support road rage or tarring all cyclists with the same brush, I’m saying that I believe these are the mechanisms that are in force around all of us.

    On the other hand, when I’m driving and front of the queue at a red and a person on a bike filters in front of me, and then the pedestrian crossing light goes, and rather than moving off safely and sensibly the PoaB (can I say cyclist?) ostentatiously sits there, or does a shite wobbly track stand, waiting for the light to go green before moving off, and can only be overtaken safely when well clear of the junction… That slows the cars passing through said junction. I mean I suspect my testosterone levels are too low for me to get cross about much these days, but it does look a bit daft compared to some sensible anticipation…

    Heh! Same here – had it this very morning, and the chap was in no hurry to move off, either, lots of street furniture for the first thirty yards so we had a steady trundle until there was room to get by. I don’t know, as a PoaB, if I ever would have got frustrated at that, but these days I don’t mind in the slightest. It does worry me that less considerate drivers would be impatient, toot the horn at the leisurely getaway and try and squeeze past where there really wasn’t room.

    I saw a dude on a bike popping a wheelie through some traffic lights.

    Could I be pregnant?

    Well, I only watched the video in the link I posted, I’m not even sure it is Geex but I know I am.

    Premier Icon sirromj
    Subscriber

    I hate endos. they’re ugly AF

    Right that’s it. That’s the last straw.

    And on a motorbike (which is just as common) it’s illegal even before that, since you can’t pass the vehicle at the front of the queue if you’re in/on a motor vehicle.

    I thought that was just at zebra crossings. I filtered to the front at lights on my advanced test and plod tester seemed happy.

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    It’s possible my memory has gone rusty. I’m afraid I now can’t be arsed to remember which bit of legislation I need to check 🙂

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