Fair enough. Gear hubs for niche users and derailleurs for normal people. Argument settled.

I think it was DMR who made a mtb BB chain tensioner which pulled the chain up behind the ring

Yup. Great tensioner.

Hols – fixed centres / no sideways loading improves chain life and you wear out a steel sprocket and one chainring very slowly compared to a cassette and 2 chainrings that wear quickly. rohloff sprockets are much much cheaper that cassettes and because there is no ramps needed you can use SS type chainrings which last longer and the drivetrain can be run more worn without detriment

More exaggerated on the tandem for sure

so one rohloff sprocket every few years compared to a cassette every year and one chain a year compared to 2 or 3. Chainring every few years rather than every year

for me the savings are around £200 a year in parts

Hols – and in Europe its the other way round. Hub gears on most bikes. Derailleurs on cheap or niche bikes

hols2

I don’t see how chains and chainrings are going to stop wearing out just because there’s a gearbox in the system.

They don’t, but because the teeth are fully formed and not cut away for ease of derailling, there’s more meat to wear away before they are unserviceable, and if enclosed in a chaincase, then the chain and cogs can last decades.

But this isn’t about hubgears, it’s about making derailleurs less vulnerable.

But this isn’t about hubgears, it’s about making derailleurs less vulnerable

How vulnerable are they really? I’ve broken no rear mechs in last 7 years. None of my mates have ever broken one in that time either. Meanwhile during same period we’ve broken brakes, wheels, frames…

Obviously they do break, but it’s hardly a common occurance.

so one rohloff sprocket every few years compared to a cassette every year and one chain a year compared to 2 or 3. Chainring every few years rather than every year

I don’t get through chains, cassettes, and chainrings that fast. Steel Deore stuff lasts pretty well IME and doesn’t cost £200 to replace.

someone up there mentioned the ‘squidginess’ of hub gears – can anyone explain what leads to this? I have a hub-geared cargo bike (only nexus 7) and I get the same sensation..

 it’s about making derailleurs less vulnerable

Oh, in that case, it’s easy, they’re not*. end of discussion.

*obviously they fail, I’d bet on about the same level as hub gears fail.

This thread was started because one rider managed to mangle two derailleurs in a couple of days. It’s an outlier.

This thread was started because one rider managed to mangle two derailleurs in a couple of days. It’s an outlier.

And tj loves to point out how he’s not fashion, or advertising led.

nickc

Oh, in that case, it’s easy, they’re not*. end of discussion…

So why is there a market for spare derailleur hangers if the system isn’t vulnerable?

Bear in mind the average STW rider is an enthusiast and more likely to care for his/her bike.

I’ve probably been fixing derailleurs (properly) longer than you’ve been alive.

I’ll probably (hopefully) still be fixing them properly long after you’re gone 🙂

I like hub gears for commuter bikes btw. Derailleurs work very well for a long long time as I can testify, but do eventually need attention. The ideal commuter would have an enclosed chain drive and a hub gear. However, in a city with any kind of hills the range of a cheap hub is not likely to be enough, is it? When we talk about ‘Europeans’ riding hub gears we are talking mostly about places like Denmark and the Netherlands, aren’t we?

I’d like to see stats on hub gear prevalence in some hilly European cities vs flat ones.

molgrips an alfine / nexus 8 has plenty of gears for hilly cities. 300% range. rohloff 500% even a 3sp SA has a 200% range

How many of the folk that are pointing out problems with hub gears have actually ridden them much?

molgrips

I’ll probably (hopefully) still be fixing them properly long after you’re gone

Let’s hope so. 🙂

But why are we talking about hubgears?

How many of the folk that are pointing out problems with hub gears have actually ridden them much?

It’s not so much that hub gears have problems, more that the problems with derailleurs are vastly exaggerated. For most people, hub gears are a solution looking for a problem.

Have you ridden a hub geared bike?

Advantages as well as disadvantages.

i have a rohloff from 2004 , i had an alfine – sold it afte 3 years commuting on it , wife still has an alfine – hates it , and we have a sturmey archer 3 speed with a 9 speed cassette on the outside – hands down its the one id keep…. it isnt mushy and it isnt draggy like both the alfine and the rohloff.

we both predominantly ride deraileur equiped bikes.

I have an XTR derailleur and XT shifters from 2003. Still working just fine.

Honda had the solution with their downhill bikes which had a fully enclosed gearbox bike with a casette system inside . When they disbanded their downhill racing team they destroyed them all .

https://www.google.com/search?q=honda+mtb+downhill+gearbox+bike&rlz=1C1AKJH_enIM735IM735&sxsrf=ACYBGNRfWiJ9n9JrHW7VzyU4hxruIHaNdw:1572871626216&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=C0RXusP02p9ElM%253A%252CZRMLyS2UO095AM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTANM32ky-lGO11cT1X2j6FgJtI4g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij6Lq0y9DlAhWMSBUIHRPDDsUQ9QEwAXoECAgQCQ#imgrc=aPE2Q56BDEHNcM:&vet=1

When they disbanded their downhill racing team they destroyed them all .

They didn’t, I’ve heard.

But why are we talking about hubgears?

They’re currently the main alternative to derailleurs. I’d like to try a gearbox bike but on paper still less efficient. And I need all the efficiency I can get when winching up a big hill.

So why is there a market for spare derailleur hangers

Is there “a market for” or is there “spare part availability” so that if you do have an issue you can get going again on the trailside; something you can’t do with a hub-gear. and most likely something you can’t repair once you do get home either. As hols2 points out, the “issues” about derailleurs are hugely overstated.

The Honda bikes were a “derailleur in a box” set-up weren’t they?

I’m really not sure it’d be worth the additional weight and complexity of such a system vs. the current solution.

I’m going to come out in support of the derailleur actually.

Like anything it’s not perfect but it’s been refined over the years to the point where it serves a variety of applications rather well, and I’m reliably informed by the interwebs that it’s still the most efficient (i.e. minimal drag) multi-speed drivetrain solution you can have on a bicycle.

It’s user serviceable/replaceable, uses a standardised interface so you can source a mech to suit your budget and it will fit, and if these dreaded rock strikes do happen (once in a blue moon IME) you’ll still be fine as it’s treated as a sacrificial component so it’s less likely to take too much of the rest of your bike with it, just don’t buy one you can’t afford to replace….

tjagain Member

stumpy – as above – after 7 years you are saving money as drivetrain parts last a lot longer and are much cheaper to replace. HIgh initial cost for lower running costs

But you are citing a niche usage case.
What is the %age of people who own a tandem? And of those, how many miles do they do?
I bet the vast majority don’t need to spend >£1000 every 7 years on bike components.

There is no way I have spent £1000 over the last 7 years just replacing drivetrain components on my bikes.

There is also the initial purchase price for these things.
I would hazard a guess that most people going into a bike shop couldn’t be persuaded that turning a £1000 bike purchase into a £2000 bike purchase is justifiable because over the next decade (or probably longer) the £2k purchase will pay for itself in terms of spares.

Not having any experience of a hub gear – what sort of maintenance do you need to do? Is it possible to do it yourself, or something that most people would want a bike shop to tackle?

Molgrips – remeber the wee spin you have on my tandem – thats a rohloff remember

Those of you who don’t break rear derailleurs clearly don’t crash to the right often enough.

Still prefer derailleurs to anything else though.

Maintenence

Rohloff is an anuual oil change via a drain plug. takes ten mins

alfine is an annual strip and oil dunk if you want it at its best. Takes less than an hour. You can however just run the alfine witout this as its greased from the factory but it runs smoother dunked in atf

Hols – and in Europe its the other way round. Hub gears on most bikes. Derailleurs on cheap or niche bikes

2016 data (so a couple of years old) – average price of a bicycle sold in the 28 EU countries was €389. How many of those do you think had any sort of hub gear?

Anyone remember Hammerschmidt? Can you still buy it? Supposed to be great but too expensive and very heavy

Derailleurs are simple and cheap to fix if something goes wrong. You can walk into any bike shop and they’ll be able to fix it for you

scotroutes – its just from observation. I would guess around half of those are hub gears 1/4 single speed 1/4 derailleur. Hub gear bikes are the most common you see in the low countries and Germany

scotroutes – its just from observation

Not from actual data then?

Taking the thread in  a new direction………

Although i personally think that a derailleur is currently still the most suitable device for changing gears for the majority of bikes , i also think that they have peaked from a design / development point of view

ie ; srams electronic wifi mech is probably the last tech break through / improvement we will see for a derailleur , theres no more real product advancements to be made for it that i can identify or envisage……

and we all know how the mtb world likes to obsolete current tech & standards in the infinite drive for profit.

When all the major obstacles of internal gearboxs’ have been ironed out then we’ll see a big roll out followed by a gradual reduction in the use of derailleurs.

it only takes just one of the component  big players to take a leap of faith and sink a shit load of cash into development and I can see them taking off in a few years.

Bike marketing got everyone from 26″> 29″ in little over 2 years , then successfully introduced e-bikes in roughly the same period , so getting folk from rear mechs to gearboxes is every bit as achievable

Scotroutes – its just what I have seen. Hub gear bikes are very common in the low countries. More common than any other type. remember you can get a 3sp hub for much cheapness.

Look thru a few adverts for euro bikes and see for yourself. For example

Batavus Dutch Bikes

I think the problem with gearbox gears, in the hub or frame, comes down to efficiency.

Unless you can make a strong case for it allowing you to go faster, racers won’t adopt it, and in a race driven pastime like ours, it will only ever be a niche product.

I can see a well developed gearbox being faster, for enduro/dh at least, due to lower unsprung mass giving better performance, but getting to that point? It won’t be cheap, and it might never take off because the derailleur is so well developed. Even selling me a gearbox, no matter how good/reliable (an unknown) is going to be hard work if it’s even a tiny bit more draggy.

When all the major obstacles of internal gearboxs’ have been ironed out then we’ll see a big roll out followed by a gradual reduction in the use of derailleurs.

…

Bike marketing got everyone from 26″> 29″ in little over 2 years , then successfully introduced e-bikes in roughly the same period , so getting folk from rear mechs to gearboxes is every bit as achievable

interesting point but I don’t think you’d be able to sell a switch unless the gearbox shift was as quick and crisp as a well set up derailleur can be. It’s easier to sell the virtues of disc brakes or e-bikes because someone can try them out riding round a car-park and very quickly feel a difference but with a gearbox it will need to feel at least as good as a derailleur or very few people will be convinced. I’m talking about ‘sport’ usage here mind

FTR I’ve owned 2 bikes with hub gears and ridden classic ‘danish/dutch’ bikes in Sweden and Holland and they absolutely have their place, I just don’t see mass adoption to more performance oriented bikes coming in a hurry.

Unless you can make a strong case for it allowing you to go faster, racers won’t adopt it, and in a race driven pastime like ours, it will only ever be a niche product.

I don’t think it’s racing or wannabe racing. We aren’t all supremely fit, and we choose to winch ourselves up some big hills. So the more drag there is the harder that gets. Personally I don’t need to make that any harder than it already is!

and we all know how the mtb world likes to obsolete current tech & standards in the infinite drive for profit.

People keep saying that, and yet when they created a new ‘standard’ for rear mech hangers they made it compatible with the old standard via an adapter which you got for free in the box. They didn’t need to.

it only takes just one of the component big players to take a leap of faith and sink a shit load of cash into development and I can see them taking off in a few years.

They’ll always be more draggy. The teeth of any gear system need to slide over each other. The part of your chain under tension with a derailleur system is a direct pull from front teeth to rear teeth.

Molgrips – remeber the wee spin you have on my tandem – thats a rohloff remember

I remember it well – the loud noise coming from the hub under power, and shouts of ‘stop pedalling I’m trying to change gear!’ coming from the front 🙂

It won’t be cheap

neither was srams axs range , still got made & released

and it might never take off because the derailleur is so well developed

like the 26″ wheel , defacto size for 30+ years  , now ignored by the popular brands

Even selling me a gearbox, no matter how good/reliable (an unknown) is going to be hard work if it’s even a tiny bit more draggy.

when coming to buy the latest mtb’s in 10 years time you may not have a choice , refer to the point above as an example….

when coming to buy the latest mtb’s in 10 years time you may not have a choice , refer to the point above as an example….

OK, larger wheels are heavier, but they roll faster, roll smoother, and grip better.

29ers had been about for a while before even the XC whippets got to them, it took about 15 years to become a mainstream enduro/dh option. Some people chose them (me included) as a preference due to their advantages.

The advantages of a gearbox are fairly minimal, particularly in a world where you can sell someone a £250 cassette every couple of years*

*OK, not everyone, but top end stuff. Even a load of XT cassettes isn’t something a component manufacturer would want to miss out on selling.