Hi All
I want to do some off-road bikepacking this year (COVID permitting of course). I’ve done a few 4- or 5-day trips on my gravel bike, but on the King Alfred Way decided that I really needed fatter tyres, lower gears and front suss.

So me: 60-something year old female, short at 160cm, longer legs than body.
Wanting to do mostly B&B offroad touring but with an eye to possible cycle-camping before old age creeps up on me and completely wipes me out.

The spec:
flat bars not drops
front suss so I don’t have to tiptoe downhill
650b or 650b+ (probably)
goes uphill as well as downhill
lightish frame if possible as I’m only a lightweight myself – steel or Ti preferred
lots of load-carrying braze-ons for attaching stuff like racks, cages, and camera bags etc
it has to come in a suitable size for me – you’d be surprised how many bikes don’t come small enough

The budget:
I am in the fairly fortunate position of having a wide budget. While I don’t want to spend masses of £ks unnecessarily, this is in all probability my forever bike [yeah, believe that]. Oh and I was going to raid the pension fund.

The shortlist:
Hot favourite: Sonder Broken Road with Reba shocks.
Runner up: Surly Karate Monkey, although getting hold of one seems nigh impossible
Also under consideration: Isen GOAT, nice but loadsamoney, lovely paintwork will get scratched to damnation in about half a second, and long lead time
Another (expensive) possible: Shand bahookie, but they are too far away to go try one (I’m in Surrey)

What else should I be considering?
Should I just go for the Sonder as good vfm?
Opinions please.

Get in touch with Keep pedalling in Manchester about the Karate Monkey. They’ve been putting pics up of 2021 Surlys they’ve built up. They are also specialists in off road touring and custom builds. Shona and Rich have ridden/raced all over the place. They can sort you something to suit your needs perfectly.

They also stock Salsa and Bombtrack who also produce the style of bike you’re looking for.

https://keeppedalling.co.uk/custom-bike-builds/

The Sour Pasta Party looks really cool.

https://sour.bike/en/candy-shop/bikes/pasta-party/

I took delivery of a Sonder Broken Road a few weeks ago and really rate it. It was bought with the intention of bikepacking after enjoying a few trips last year and after riding it for the last few weeks I am happy I made the right choice.
Sonder were great to deal with and always have time to answer queries and provide advice.

It hasn’t got a mass of braze ons, but enough for my needs – 3 x bottle cage mounts (2 in the triangle & 1 under the down tube) and rear rack and mudguard mounts. I also bought a set of Frontier rigid forks with the bike. They have triple mounts on each leg and I will swap them in for more road-based trips and tours.
I specc’ed the Confucius bars on the bike as they have the extra loop out front to provide a lot more options for attaching bags, lights, computer, etc.

The frames come in to Sonder in fairly small batches every couple of months so although it may say they are sold out on the web site it is worth calling and reserving one if you don’t mind waiting. Mine took 3 months from order to delivery. That suited me fine as it gave me time to decide exactly what brakes, gears, headset, etc I wanted on the bike. Again Sonder are really helpful with customisation and will fit anything you specify. You pay extra but not full price for the parts.

Feel free to drop me a DM if you want any more information.

OH is the same height as you and bought a second hand kinesis sync this year, then promptly decided we should do the KAW over three days. Did her longest day ever on a bike, twice, and remarked on how comfy she was the whole way round. Worth keeping an eye out for S/H? We were credit card touring so can’t comment on it with more than a change of clothes packed.

Any particular reason it has to be 650? it shuts down a lot of options, things like the brother big bro. If it’s preference or experience fair enough, just wondering!

Broken Road is the obvious choice. You’d not be disappointed.

@swanny853

I’m used to thinking 650 ‘cos in very small frame sizes often big wheels just look silly. Geometry can get very skewed in order to accommodate the out-of-proportion wheels yet still allow the small rider to reach the handlebars, so the bike you read about in the review is not the bike you bought. Of course, with 650+ you get a very similar diameter, so perhaps my thinking is more appropriate for road bikes and I should look at that again.
Will look at at the Kinesis Sync, never tire of looking at bikes :).

Thanks munrobiker, I have never heard of sour before, great suggestion.

Bigger wheels also reduce luggage space – particularly between saddle and tyre. Might not be such an issue if you have long legs but my custom Ti frame was built with a slightly higher BB to give a bit more space

Thanks johnystorm.
My current “gravel” bike is actually a Bombtrack Hook WMN. Its more like a cyclocross than a modern gravel bike, good for easy tracks on firm ground but not so good with sand, mud, rocks or luggage carrying. I’ll be looking to move it on when I get the new bike. Will look at your recommend.

Shand will do a you a full custom geometry Bahookie at no extra cost. As an attempt to get more women riding bikes, especially ones that fit properly, this process has been running for a few years now. Not properly advertised but tell them Steven said it’s fine! Plus you get to choose any colour you can think of.

Was thinking Broken Road before I read much of your 1st post.

If you fancied something differenter and spendier, you could ask Andy/Stooge if he’d get you a Ti Dirtbomb, http://stoogecycles.co.uk/product/dirtbomb-titanium-29-klunkin-bohemoth-of-joy-deposit/
or Ti LWB or SWB (long or short) spaceframe from Jones.

Did the Sandstone Way and the Northumberland Coastal route on an old On One Inbred 29er
I had a light hydration/tool pack a small bar bag and a small seat bag. That was enough for everything including a bivvy/sleeping bag combo. I’d get 29 wheels. They just roll faster and won’t get slammed into potholes by a loaded bike. I’m 5′ 8″ and need a medium. Got an On One Big Dog and Scandel now. I’d be happy to go touring on either, or on the Inbred, and will be this summer as I got a jab yesterday. The Scandel frame is light. I can’t see the point of heavily loading an offroad bike, just makes it painful.. There’s an awful lot of hype involved in order to sell you a specific offroad tourer whereas what’s most important is what you don’t load it with.

Also under consideration: Isen GOAT, nice but loadsamoney, lovely paintwork will get scratched to damnation in about half a second,

Two words: Frame Wrap.

That is a thing of beauty. Incredibly expensive, but, if you have the money, then why not.

Re 29ers, all entirely understandable reasons! I really like the look of some of the small pannier set-ups to allow big wheels + luggage + dropper post.

Something like this- https://bikepacking.com/bikes/virginias-why-cycles-wayward/

Just note that the further back your pack the more that will load the back wheel without the front suspension taking a blind bit of notice. For that reason I’d rather go with a Carradice saddlebag with a mounted support and get the weight forward of the rear wheel. I used to set up/compete in Polaris two day offroad events and nobody serious use carriers. Actually we all knackered our backs with rucksacks…….

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2fHqL2D]58695706_10157372131696474_6247370729097003008_n[/url] by Richard Munro, on Flickr

Genesis tarn. I sold mine for 350 to a mate and totally regret it but i was under orders to n-1, however you should be able to pick one up easily enough cheapsih?

Brill bikepacking bike and had bosses for 2 bottles. Plus steel 🙂

https://www.instagram.com/p/B70OEjQFsky/?igshid=1jc4dmr646cog

Another Broken Road owner here. Loving mine – it’s a great all rounder and so versatile with a very comfortable Ti ride

Here is mine in 29er mode – Kinlin 30” internal rims laces to Hope Pro4 hubs and Maxxis 2.4 Tyres

And here it is in 650b mode – Hunt Rims 30” internal with 2.6 Nobby Nic’s

Having the option of running x2 wheelsets really appealed to me plus you have adjustable drop outs to help change set up for touring or general HT duties

I have also upgraded the brakes and added a dropper post.

Just ordered some Stooge handlebars with a high rise and sweep all ready for some tours once this shitty pandemic moves on…

I would go for a 29er if you can, just a more suitable, smoother wheel size for loaded or longer-distance off-road use. The smaller rider smaller wheel thing is not necessarily the way to make the best bike for this kind of use, imo. But as long as it’s comfy, no matter.

If you do go for a steel bike, be picky – there’s a lot of burly larger OD tubed steel bikes around that might be stiffer and heavier than you need.
Good suggestion up there ^ to talk to Shand if you want a light steel 29er suitable for a smaller rider and luggage – they’ll get the geo and tubeset right for you and they do really good work there.

Another good suggestion is those micro-panniers – I get all the negatives of racks and panniers but if you’re not carrying much to start with it matters less where it is, seat pack or rear pannier position. Lowering the location of weight has advantages too.

Pine Mtn 2?

From 5’ 2” according to their sizing

https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/2021-pine-mountain-2

Would have to look at shipping and duties but how about Priority 600x as used by Ryan Van Duzer on tour divide

https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/600x

I’d also strongly recommend the Shand option, especially as you’re looking to treat yourself to a special bike. Jenny Graham & Lee Craigie seem to love theirs and certainly use them for extended packing rides.
The custom fit option is brilliant and is what my partner did when looking for a touring specific frame to fit her at 155cm tall/short. At least this way you know that the frame that you order will definitely fit and will be adapted to exactly what you want to use the bike for. Custom paint options too…..

Santa Cruz Chameleon
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/santa-cruz-chameleon-c-review/

Many thanks to everybody for all your suggestions.

I do take people’s point about getting the luggage weight forward. Given the small size of the frames I ride it can be tricky getting a framebag that will fit. I usually use the Restrap drybag and holster system but typically there’s only clearance for the little one between saddle and tyre so I team it with a handlebar bag. Sometimes you simply need to carry more, like when camping, and much as I dislike panniers it’s the best solution. I don’t like to wear a backpack if I can avoid it.

Rack braze-ons can also be a good place to attach a little stubby thing for your rear light, if facing in the right direction, as when using a saddlepack there isn’t any seatpost left to put the light on.

Some of the bikes suggested simply don’t come small enough – eg Genesis Tarn, most of the On-One bikes, and the DirtBike. If I lived nearer Scotland it would be the Shand (sigh…I’m in lurve…) but I am hesitant to order a custom bike from someone the other end of the country without being able to visit for measuring and discussing, and not confident that I can measure myself accurately.

So its to be the Broken Road.

Just remember the process of producing titanium is intensely polluting. Isla Bikes won’t use it for that reason, nor could I in conscience buy a frame made of it, in fact any company that uses it would be marked down, and that includes Stanton, sigh.

I have a surly karate monkey, 2018 model, bought as a frameset to go with some tyres I already had. It can take 29” or 650+
It rides nicely, i went rigid, but with 29×3” front tyre.
I would probably buy the same again, and the sonder would definitely be on my radar, as would the shand, (although, i only live about 30 mins away from shand)

I’ve used it with schwalbe big apples, nobby nic/rock razor, surly knard 29×3/rock razor, it works well with any of those.
Edit: I’ve used it in bikepacking mode, or with front and rear racks.
Bikepacking mode rides better.

Based on our experience of the Shand custom process, I’d still suggest putting concerns over measuring yourself aside and talk to them first before finally dismissing the option. They will look at more than just simple stats, talking about what you currently ride, how you get on with particular sized frames and looking to get confirmation from the additional evidence before committing. We’re only an hour away and did it all on the phone and on line. And that was in pre Covid days, when we could easily have travelled. We only went to Livingstone to collect the finished frame.

I have a Sonder Brokenroad and Frontier. Two price ranges and both great bikes for anything use especially packing. Ride a frontier 1st is my suggestion and maybe save a grand.
Also highly recommended are the guys at Travers. TI stuff isto die for and stock was good recent. Also drop a travers XC prong carbon fork into mine which also was a total game changer.

If you’ve totally made up your mind then fair enough but if you really fancy a Shand and the only thing putting you off is getting the sizing right then I’d take a second look. I think about 95% of all sales are to people that don’t get to the workshop to try anything. There is a really good remote sizing and fitting process in place and all the support you need for getting your own measurements correct as well as measurements from and comments about, any existing bikes.  We have a very good record for making sure the fit is spot on and we have a ton of experience with women cyclists in particular. If you need more info or any additional guidance, drop me an email (steven@shandcycles.com). If you’re already sold on the Sonder then good luck, it’s a good value for money bike and I’m sure you’ll get along with it fine.

Sonders are lovely bikes and astonishing value for money.

That said, if I were you, I would definitely explore the custom route before making a decision. I have a custom steel DeAnima DeFer gravel bike and it is just a terrific bike to ride. Everything about it works for me.

Given the choice of steel and Ti, I would tend to err on the side of the former. I like the longevity you get with a steel frame and would struggle to notice any material difference between two identical bikes save for the frame material. I’ve owned several Ti bikes but keep coming back to steel.

There really is no need to physically visit a custom builder to get a bike that is right for you. What you are paying for is knowledge and experience to help you arrive at the best decision. It ultimately comes down to what you are willing to pay and how much of a say you want in the design of your bike. You also get to support a local ( well, local in the still in the UK sense!) business and that is no bad thing.

Given that you have got Steven coming onto the forum and offering some really helpful advice without the hard sell, it may be worth exploring that option further?

Hope this helps?

Cheers

Sanny

PS Surly’s are great bikes too.I have an Ice Cream Truck and will always fly the flag for the brand. Every bike of theirs which I have tried I have really liked. There is good reason that they are a popular brand in the bikepacking world.

Shand. It’s not hard to get fit correct, as you have bikes and you already know about what feels good. A few mm/cm can be adjusted with saddle rails, bar width, stem length etc. It will have very similar shaped components and wheel sizes to other bikes. It’s the geometry that matters and they’ll get that right from the info you give them. The build quality and back up is superb and you can really make it your own with component choice, colour etc.
I didn’t visit or test fit anything about my Stooshie, but it came with the added tyre clearance I wanted and Di2 routing etc and 4 years on, still brings a smile to my face.

Another + for ti Stooge.

I had the poor mans Sonder Broken Road (AKA Titus Mutsu) which is the same bike just a lot cheaper.

It didn’t suit me just felt slow and dull to ride, so sold it and replaced it with a Salsa Cutthroat and have to say its a massive improvement. You can also fit a suspension fork if you wanted to.

It wont be as capable when the going gets really rough but I took it on a route where I would normally pick my xc bike and was very impressed by how well it handled it.