<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>So noting athletes/footballers of different origins have different running ability shouldn’t be taboo</span>

there might be probabilistic predictions you could make about ethnicity and sporting prowess based on genetics, but you’d  be on shaky ground. Genetics and sports is massively complex and just saying actn3 is simplistic. You still have to take account of other physiological elements and psychological ones as well.

There’s a slight population wide advantage to African American athletes but that doesn’t come close to explaining the difference between their ( and white runners) respective success rates. If it was just down to that gene the balance would be something like 6 black elite athletes to 5 white ones.

If it was just down to that gene the balance would be something like 6 black elite athletes to 5 white ones.

More explanation please with some context and a link to back it up. I assume you’ve read my link on the previous page:

The last 25 holders of the world record for the 100-metre race have all been black and data compiled in 2007 revealed that 494 out of the 500 best-ever 100-metre sprint times are held by athletes primarily of West African origin.

Oh good, the Edukator rabbit-hole.

Well, I’ve learnt valuable background information on inappropriate terms today, so it hasn’t been wasted.

Are you allowed to use the word “Moron” in the thread title?

Good point, Spekkie the irony is perhaps lost on the OP but have a read:

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/the-sinister-history-of-the-word-moron-explained

If you’re wondering how I posted that in less than 30 seconds it’s because I’d already got it open in a browser window ready. 😉

Are you allowed to use the word “Moron” in the thread title?

If my use of the word moron has offended you im very sorry. But if you want to challenge the use of the word moron when using it to describe someone who has made racist, homophobic and sexist remarks thats cool you can pick that hill to die on.

Have a read, Joepud:

Those labeled “moron” could be institutionalized, deported, or sterilized in order to create a race of humans deemed superior by those in positions of influence and power, according to a New Yorker piece on the history of eugenics. Eugenics was widely embraced in academia and even celebrated at the World’s Fair. In the first half of the 20th century, this movement in the U.S. led to the involuntary sterilization of around 60,000 people, mostly women of child-bearing age, who were subjectively deemed unfit to reproduce.

Federally funded sterilization programs were legalized in 32 states. The state of Virginia passed its Eugenical Sterilization Act in 1924, and to test the legality of the law, Carrie Buck, a poor 17-year-old girl from Charlottesville, was sent to the Virginia Colony for Epileptics and Feeble-Minded — an asylum for those deemed so-called “morons” where her mother, Emma, had been admitted just a few years prior. Carrie was pregnant as the result of rape and, after giving birth, was sterilized at the colony with no understanding of what was happening to her. The move was backed by law and further supported by the Supreme Court, as demonstrated in the 1927 Buck v. Bell case, in which the court ruled that the sterilization of the “unfit” — including the intellectually disabled — did not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. After observing Buck, her mother, and her grandmother — all poor white women — Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. delivered the opinion of the court, writing, “three generations of imbeciles was enough.” This decision has never been overturned.

This is why some people don’t like to admit that any differences in ethnic group traits are down to genetics, because in the past it’s been used very badly. There are differences though that can’t and shouldn’t be ignored because health care choices have to be made and made on the scale of a population. There’s no point screening everybody for some disorders, only those susceptible to have the disease.

I was asking the question is all…..

These thread are dreadful, Spekkie, the very same people who condemn teaching creationism in schools pipe up with crap about West Africans dominating running having little or nothing to do with genetics. Accept Darwinism and genetics and it’s hyprocritical not to accept that there are genetic differences between ethnic groups that make some groups better than others in various athletic disciplines.

Don’t put money on a Percheron at the Grand National.

More explanation please with some context and a link to back it up

because of the distribution of that gene in the general population. The gene alone isn’t enough of a contribution to the fact that all the Olympic 100m winners since 1980 have been black athletes

Question: Do you think that there is a link between the success of black runners on the world stage that attracts other young black men into running?

Just read the article I linked a page back, nickc, it covers all of the questions you’re asking. Easier than doing them one by one. If you find a point in the article you disagree with raise that.

Don’t put money on a Percheron at the Grand National.

I mean, presumably you don’t mean to compare black athletes to animals, but can you see how this statement might be considered a teensy bit problematic, in this context?

The Grand National is a race exclusively for horses, Grum. You are the one who thought to make a comparison I would never make.

There are different races of horses with different characteristcs.

There a variations with a species, any species, including Homo Sapiens.

I’m speaking here as a geologist and well placed to comment on evolution. Within a species there are adaptions to environment. Humans have evolved to suit different environments. Eskimos can live in extreme conditions that West africans are poorly adapted to, andd visa versa. The West African adaption includes speed.

If you find a point in the article you disagree with raise that.

For him, “athletic performance is largely determined by genetics and specifically ACTN3, the so-called ‘sprint gene’”.

I disagree with this statement. “Largely” is meaningless. Again if this was the case (given the spread of the “sprint gene” amongst the general population) for every 6 black winners, you’d expect to see 5 white ones.

Leclaire concluded that the genes favourable for sprinting are more commonly found in those of West African origin.

But not in enough of a factor to determine why black athletes have dominated the 100m so thoroughly since 1980. to the exclusion of white athletes. In fact, given the amount of American winners of the Olympic 100m you could probably make equally spurious claims about something in the water…

Transmit your doubts to the writer then, I agree with him.

I agree with him.

How utterly fascinating.

I’m speaking here as a geologist and well placed to comment on evolution.

I’m speaking here as a historian and well placed to comment on football. 😛 I dunno, I don’t even necessarily disagree with you, I don’t know enough about it – I do find your ‘passion’ for the subject pretty weird though.

Geology is fascinating, I can’t say I have a ‘passion’ for it though. ‘Interest’ would be the right word, I gave it up professionally a long time ago. If ever you are in Burgos in Spain visit this place:

https://www.hominides.com/html/lieux/musee-evolution-humaine-meh-burgos.php

Edit: I know it’s in French that’s what my browser finds first, just scroll down and look at the pictures and think about the implications.

Have a read, Joepud:

Was I aware of the historical context of the word moron no, did i read the article yes. Did i use it because its more widely recognised to mean stupid, which its what Greg Clarke is for his choice of words. Could I be “moron” in your eyes due to my choice of word maybe… most likely. But i feel like this is derailing the initial point of the topic.

I’m speaking here as a geologist and well placed to comment on evolution […] The West African adaption includes speed.

That would certainly explain all those Mauritanian, Liberian, and Senegalese Olympics 100m winners….

“The Grand National is a race exclusively for horses, Grum. You are the one who thought to make a comparison I would never make.

There are different races of horses with different characteristcs.”

Just to correct you there Edukator, there are different ‘breeds’ of horse, not different races, if you think breed & race are the same thing in this context, then you have a lot more to learn than your posts already highlight!

That’s why I said:

West Africans dominate some olympic disciplines whichever country the athletes might come from

It’s the genetic stock that counts. Where those West African genes meet favourable training conditions success results. Eskimo genes are unlikely to get a runner into a 100m final let alone on to the podium however good the training conditions and however motivated the athlete.

You’re not being sensibel now, nickc, and choosing to argue with things you know are red herrings just to be argumentative. I see panzerjager is too. Lovely user name by the way speaks volumes.

It’s to do with the history of the expression ‘coloured’ and its associations with the slave trade, colonialism and segregation.

The use of the term ‘of colour’ subverts that and takes back possession and ownership of the word ‘colour’, in much the same way as the gay community did with the word queer. Subtle but important difference.

It’s that simple. The head of the FA should know the difference

@binners if you led with that it would have been much easier. I literally had no idea what the distinction was, coming from somewhere that considers multicultural diversity as being tolerant of protestants AND catholics. Yes, I have a (very shallow) pool of friends of varying ethnicity but this has literally never come up. Probably because I don’t know any black people I guess.

In future it would be nice if people actually took things at face value and took time to understand that what may be glaringly obvious for some isn’t so for others. People talk about lived lives, that goes both ways. If someone is wrong or doesn’t understand something then pointing them in the right direction is better than castigating them.

You’re not being sensibel now, nickc, and choosing to argue with things you know are red herrings just to be argumentative. I see panzerjager is too. Lovely user name by the way speaks volumes.

Trollolololol!

Troll Squirrelking? Hardly, plenty of forum history to prove otherwise.

There’s quite a distinction between breed & race, it wasn’t made as an argumentative point. Humans are all one race for a start, regardless of skin colour or ethnicity, so not really an analogy that works, is it?

Pray tell, what does my user name tell you about me?? I’d be fascinated to hear…

I’ll invite my brother to comment on evolution as he’s also a geologist.

It works perfectly in French which is where I ride horses, and according to my dictionary trnaslates to species too. It looks suspiciouly like a petty argumentative point as your explanations shows you clearly understood what I intended to mean and deliberately found fault, then disengeniusly clamied it wasn’t made as an argumentaive point..

Your user name is the name of a WW2 tank destroyer, type it into Google image search and you’ll find lots of images of an armoured vehicle with military markings of National Socialist Germany. I suggest it’s an unwise choice of user name. They were used to commit atrocities in several occupied zones in WW2.

If you Google my user name you get this as first Google result (or you would with a French browser):

I’m an ex-teacher, speak German and liked the film, seemed apt when I reregistered after the great hack.

You’re not being sensibel now, nickc

Genetics is massively complex, and how it interacts with sports and training, and psychology makes it even more so, and to just reduce black athletes success down to a “sprint gene” is, in of itself, somewhat racist (as it overlooks all the other factors that have contributed to their success and ignores completely the fact that successful white runners have very nearly the same expression of the sprint gene, as does the whole population), the west African advantage is too small to be a sole indicator for black athletic success at the 100m. You could say that having the gene infers an advantage over those that don’t, but I wouldn’t be massively surprised if other gene variation didn’t make some chance difference, and other physiological advantages might make the genetic question all but redundant anyway.

If you look at long distance running for example all the successful east African runners (Kenyans are massively over represented ), overwhelmingly call Nandi home, in that context, (ie they’re all using the same village as their training base), the notion that L.D. running is a east African success story is nonsensical. Or if look at the Bambuti of central Africa they’re average height is 4ft, are you going to assert that therefore Africans are more likely to be smaller, and thus better at walking under low doors?

There’s pretty much always greater genetic variation within groups than between groups, and skin colour is pretty  much always a bad way of looking for variation of genes between populations (as some-one interested in evolution, you should probably know that)

All the evidence suggests that skin colour is a bad way of determining genetic variation, indeed it’s absurd.

I have never mentioned skin colour, check back. Please stop implying I have said things I haven’t, nickc.

I haven’t reduced success to a single gene, you have invented that. I have linked an article I agree with that covers many more variables. Of which genetics is an important factor.

You are trying to rubbish what I haven’t said. Check back.

Me, me, me, me, me, me, me!

Troll Squirrelking? Hardly, plenty of forum history to prove otherwise.

Wasn’t talking about you!

Eskimo genes

“Eskimo” is generally considered incorrect if not offensive / pejorative these days due to its colonial roots, and has been so for decades. I know this and I’m still thinking that Eric Morecambe must be rolling in his grave over the coloured people / people of colour argument, so I’m pretty surprised at this one coming from you if I’m honest.

Thanks Edukator, well done for stopping just short of invoking Godwin’s law there.

I’m aware of the Panzerjager tank destroyer, in fact thats where the name came from, I’m a model maker & the first work I ever had published was a scratch built model of the panzerjager I, my friends at the various shows used the nickname as a piss-take & it stuck as my name on the modelling forums. Nothing more sinister than that, good of you to imply otherwise though… I build the boring green British, Russian & US stuff too.

I kept the same name after the great hack, lack of imagination I guess…

The irony of me defending myself as not trolling to someone who’s been called out for it many times before isn’t lost on me either.

‘Old duffer’ was used in a couple of earlier posts to describe Greg Clarke. He’s only 63. Not exactly a dinosaur.

So even less of an excuse for him not keeping up then although people can start to settle in their ways and thinking way before 63, but again, that person should not be head of an organisation that has a lot of issues to sort out that he doesn’t acknowledge or understand.

Exactly. He’s an old duffer in terms of his mindset.

I actually didn’t know that there was any problem with the word “Eskimo” but equally, I can’t remember the last time I had to use that word in a sentence.

We live and learn . . . .

We live and learn . . . .

Well, the last page or so show some are very eager to teach others a lesson. Or put them in their place at least.

(Not talking about you Spekkie)

that person should not be head of an organisation that has a lot of issues to sort out that he doesn’t acknowledge or understand

Precisely. He’s the UK leader of a large and high profile entertainment industry, which has a long history of discrimination. To turn up to a select committee that badly prepared should be grounds for dismissal on their own.

@kerley @thebrick Absolutely. No excuses for that in his position. No sympathy for him at all.