rather than looking at the scenery and knowing where they are

Works really well in middle of a forest. There’s loads of forest here.

Up a mountain or out in the exposed wilds, the map is my ultimate authority. No batteries to run out.
Anywhere else, GPS is a quick 10sec confirmation that I’m where I expect to be, especially when I’ve got a route or waypoints on it.

No clubber. I am making a simple point backed with experience that you fail to understand.

A gps is a addition to navigation skills – not a substitute.

And yes – navigations skills work anywhere – middle of a forest or not.

Works really well in middle of a forest. There’s loads of forest here.

Or on top of hills in low cloud/white out conditions.

Having ridden in the Brecon beacons and despite having a map getting lost because i could see no landmarks to navigate by. Bikes cover ground fast it is very easy to think you are at point A when in fact you are somewhere else.

A gps is a addition to navigation skills – not a
substitute.

who has said otherwise? 🙄 You can say the same for map and compass as it goes…

still, good of you to conceed that they’re not toys and that you were wrong about their use by.mountain rescue 😉

using a navigational GPS like a satmap enables you to keep your heart rate up, which stopping to consult a map and compass does not.

If you rely on map and compass you tend to map out a few routes and then keep to them so you can keep your heart rate up as you ride them.

Using the satmap encourages diversity of riding as you don’t have to memorise the routes so much.

using a navigational GPS like a satmap enables you to keep your heart rate up, which stopping to consult a map and compass does not.

If you rely on map and compass you tend to map out a few routes and then keep to them so you can keep your heart rate up as you ride them.

Using the satmap encourages diversity of riding as you don’t have to memorise the routes so much.

Why not just sack off the riding and ride road if HR and intensity is your primary goal…

Good to see TJ moving the goalposts in the face of contrary evidence. Nothing changes.

to be fair jambo if you can get the training in and do it mtbing rather than on the road, why not?

Where have I moved the goalposts? where is the contradictory evidence? Do you mean clubber quoting from a gps apps distributors advertising material?

Try this instead

Rely on skills, not technology

Learn the basics of map reading and compass work and use GPS navigation aids as a back up, not as a primary tool. Similarly, do not rely on mobile phones to summon immediate help – there are many areas on the Scottish hills where reception is still patchy or unavailable.

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/mountain-rescue.asp

Thats all I was saying. its a very simple point

There can be no contradictory evidence to the fact that with my own eyes I have seen people go the wrong way because they relied on the gps rather than navigating.

Why not just sack off the riding and ride road if HR and intensity is your primary goal…

1. road is sh1t boring
2. road exposes you to loads more fumes
3. road exposes you to cars
4. mtb gives you interval type training whereas road does not
5. mtb also gives you weight bearing exercise, which road does not

however, TJ, a gps is hugely more functional than map and compass when on the mtb, which is what the OP was asking about.

I have seen people go the wrong way when a map was wrong or they misread their position and refused to question the map. your anecdotal examples are just that. navigational skills are key.

I have shown that MRS use GPS. There’s no question that they do. you are wrong.

but don’t let any of that rationality stop you espousing your belief system 😉

After 45yrs of using map and compass I’ve bought a Satmap. Excellent bit of kit but I still carry a map/compass whether walking or biking. It’s great to get a position fix quickly in mist. Aiming off and step counting in very poor conditions isn’t something everyone masters but it was one of the things we had to do on my winter MLC at Glenmore Lodge.
As others have said it’s not a substitute but a modern aid in navigation.

The point where I started to like GPS was when units like the Satmap appeared using OS mapping – if you think about it, it’s just an electronic representation of a map with the fairly major bonus of telling you exactly where you are on it. Before that point I tended to see them mostly as a handy way of confirming my exact position on a paper map – those ‘omigodd where the hell are we’ moments.

Isn’t it obvious – outside of STW of course, where everything is just an excuse for an argument – that GPS isn’t inherently good or bad, it just has good and bad points depending on the situation you’re in.

Say you’re mountaineering on the Cairngorm Plateau in a white-out, a proper white-out, with a massive hoolie blowing across the tops, wearing thick gloves. Would you rather be micro-navving with an OS map and compass or use an OS-mapping GPS – personally I’d rather have the option of something that shows me exactly where I am relative to the massive crags and cornices I can’t see with a paper map/compass in my pack.

I do think GPS is easier to use when walking than riding just because you’re moving more slowly. But like any nav, it’s a question of visualising the route ahead so you don’t have to keep referring to your map/GPS every 20 seconds.

That’s my take on it anyway. I’m sure I’m wrong and GPS is either wholly good or unremittingly evil, but there you go.

Being a tourist and all in this great country almost all my big rides are in new and totally unfamiliar areas. If I had to rely on a map and compass my rides would take a very long time and cover very short distances.
Its great to be riding along and a quick glance at the bars tells me I am on the right track.
If Im descending tech then I’ll rely on the alarm telling me if I’m off track as I may not want to take my eyes off the trail for too long. It only lets me get 20 metres or so off track before letting out a loud and annoying beep that even gets past my ipod.
To the OP I think if your riding trail centres or familiar trails all the time then GPS probably does not add a great deal, but if you go on epics that require navigation I consider it essential.
For me its so essential that I have a spare handheld unit in the pack in case something happens to the handlebar mounted one.
Always carry maps and compass of course too but I can’t recall the last time I ever used them TBH.

clubber – you quoted some advertising material. Really.

tj there’s plenty of evidence out there and the first Google hit being provided by a GPS product supplier disproved nothing. I’m clearly right but I accept that your beliefs won’t be changed so I’ll do what I do with street preachers and leave you to it and let others judge who is the more credible.

Of course you are clearly right and my actual quote from the organising body of mountain rescue in scotland was made up by me.

use GPS navigation aids as a back up, not as a primary tool.

Thats all I said.

Be interested to know if any MRS did in fact use GPS as their primary navigation aid – any volunteers on here?
I knew a few old-timers who unequivocally did not – they were so quick with a map and compass that the gps just sat at the bottom of the rucksack in case of some freakish accident with the map. There was also a tacit disapproval of the idea of using an electronic device as a main navigation aid in the hills.
They were greybeards though – might be different with the younger generation.

use GPS navigation aids as a back up, not as a primary tool.

what’s the date on that page?

you would be off your rocker not to use something like a satmap as a primary aid, with the map as backup.

the satmap is an OS map so it is pretty easy to use your navigational skills to double check your position on the map if you needed to.

For mountain rescue you are trying to get somewhere as fast as you can – and using the satmap, or similar, is just much faster.

Turnerguy – that is a very dangeous attitude. what happens when you drop your gps in the river?

As for speed. I was out with a friend the other day – I could get my paper map out and orientate / check route quicker than he could using his gps app on his smart phone – a full mapping one. The main reason being the size of the screen compared with the map.

Have you seen an expert navigator use map and compass Turnerguy? They are amazingly adept and fast.

what happens when you drop your gps in the river?

If its waterproof you pick it back out again.

What happens when you drop your map/compass in the river?

Turnerguy – that is a very dangeous attitude. what happens when you drop your gps in the river?

The sound of the very bottom of the argument barrel being scraped 😀

Without wanting to get into yet another silly TJ bunfight… These people you were out with TJ that went the wrong way cos they blindly followed their GPS’s… Why did you let them and couldn’t you convince them of the credibility of your nav skills? Praps they were just a bit cheesed off with your pedantic preaching and chose to go another way? 🙂

BTW, I agree. GPS’s are fantastic when used along with a map and compass. I’m happiest when out with both and I can navigate in the hills without one.

Last point, GPS’s per se can’t really be ‘toys’ now can they? The technology is used for all sorts (though with different levels of investment) and this wouldn’t be possible if they were mere ‘toys’ would it?

No – its a very crucial point. If you rely on a piece of technology and the technology fails you are scuppered. if you rely on skills you have then there is nothing to fail

Turnerguy – that is a very dangeous attitude. what happens when you drop your gps in the river?

you use your map backup.

satmap has a much bigger screen than a smartphone.

I really cannot see the sense in not looking at a scrolling OS 1:25k map that you hold in one hand rather than a map and compass which you hold in two (if you needed the compass…)

it is a map, for crying out loud…

TJ, the boating world have been having the paper v’s electronic argument for years (they started with GPS in the mainstream consumer market before land applications became popular). In many cases the official advice is similar to the MCoS advice – but the reality is the faster you travel, the more open/exposed your boat, etc the more likely you are to use the electronic option as the primary and paper as the secondary (that is not to suggest that common sense association of surroundings and electronic mapping should not be used – but its which tool are you using 95% of the time). But the boating world is also full of people preaching “don’t rely on your GPS (usually to people who have an effective alternative)” who have never actually tried the benefits of navigating properly with GPS in high speed / exposed situations. I predict that in 10 yrs time the land navigation world will have caught up and the majority of people genuinely travelling long distances in unknown territory will mostly use their GPS and keep the map in the bag as a backup.

Do you also follow the MCoS advice not to pack your map in the rucksack when on the bike? Although you’ve seen people follow the GPS and get lost – I’ve seen people reach a Y in the path that is not marked on the map, assume they have made good progress and are further on (at the next junction that is marked) and pick the wrong trail until the guy with the iPhone says – no we are not. In the dark, in unknown woods, on a path that isn’t even on the map, nobody would have died but it could have been a miserable hunt for a route out.

In answer to the OP: a GPS will be good compared to directions or magazine map if you find your flow is regularly interrupted by map stops. To get maximum benefit though you need to find a way of keeping it accessible/visible – and probably have one with some sort of mapping on it – not just your trail. If you are riding relatively familiar territory, or are good at memorising maps/routes in your head, or often need to stop so slower riders can catch up it may be less useful. Battery life is a major ball ache with phone based gps. If you are buying a dedicated GPS consider one that has a AA/AAA battery option so you can carry spares in your bag. A proper map (and compass) is always worth carrying if you are away from people/roads etc.

As an ex infantry soldier my map reading skills are great but MM On my iPhone is by far the easiest way of masking sure I’m where I’m supposed to be. Getting maps and sometimes compasses out is a faff.

Some real comedy gold on this thread.

That.is.all.

If you rely on a piece of technology and the technology fails you are scuppered.

A paper map is also technology, just old technology 😉

Personally I stop, examine the trees for moss/lichen, poke a stick in the ground and watch it’s shadow move, and wait for a flock of migrating birds to pass – now that’s skills

Does TJ carry a sextant as a backup?

As for speed. I was out with a friend the other day – I could get my paper map out and orientate / check route quicker than he could using his gps app on his smart phone – a full mapping one. The main reason being the size of the screen compared with the map.

If he had a bar mounted GPS with outdoor viewable screen he probably wouldn’t have needed to stop.

Some GPS apps on phones are better than others, e.g. if you leave it open all the time, if it needs to load maps from internet etc. A good app, on a good phone that already had GPS location fix, would autocentre the map on your current position and so require either no user involvement or one press to wake the screen up. That said I don’t think most phone GPS are ideal for MTB other than as an aid/check for position fixing; because of battery life, outdoor viewable screens, mechanical robustness, and waterproofing.

Poly that is exactly what I use mine for. I plan the route, memorise a few points of note then ride. Get phone out check position, note next turns and things to look at and then ride. It hasn’t failed me yet.

I use MyTrails on a Samsung Ace, find it excellent.

Meanwhile on Ye Olde Singletrackworlde

And ye – it has been decreed. Thou must depend upon the devils compass else ye shall have it fall into a raging torrent and thou wouldst be set upon by dragons. The true believer will rely upon Gods own waymarkers, set in the heavens, guiding the faithful soul to true enlightenment.

Most of my riding companions who use their phones to track their rides claim a 3 hr battery life. I think a working mobile phone is pretty essential for remote riding also. I personally dont think its a good idea to use it as the primary navigation tool for that reason.

The OP didn’t mention using a phone.

Lots of others have and it’s the obvious alternative when considering navigation tools.

Other than for the reason you mention above (amongst others) 🙂

Viewranger has been a revelation to me after many years of having just a paper map. I now have the same maps on my phone and am able to relate ground features (aspect of slope etc) to these same maps to check against the indicated gps positioning. It helped me out recently when biking between two munros across fairly featureless moorland. I overshot a turn and with the ground dropping in a way other than I had in my mind from studying the route beforehand was able to check position and direction of travel as well as being able to see a route already plotted on it.

I carry a fully charged backup battery and a map and compass in my rucksack.

Many years back my sister, brother-in-law and nephew were walking up Scafell Pike from Borrodale in mist. They were fairweather, occasional hillwalkers navigating by map but were all very headstrong people and were continually determined to take any opportunity to convince each other just how right they were, about… well anything.
They couldn’t sort out where they were and made a series of incorrect assumptions and as a result descended into Wasdale. My elderly father was holidaying with them and had to drive something like 70 miles round trip to pick them up – after they managed to get in touch with him (pre mobile phone days). Yes, I know that they could/should have had map skills but I guess I just enjoy retelling the tale.