Government e-petition to make 'Engineer' a protected title

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  • Government e-petition to make 'Engineer' a protected title
  • jockhaggis
    Member

    I think this one may have been discussed in the past. 🙂

    Make ‘Engineer’ a protected title e-petition

    Make ‘Engineer’ a protected title

    Responsible department: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills

    Engineering suffers from an image problem. People believe that engineers simply fix things, but we don’t: we invent things. Unfortunately the false image is propagated by hundreds of companies out there who term repair-persons and equipment installers ‘Engineers’. Engineering suffers from a lack of graduates, and at a time people are looking to manufacturing to fix the economy we need all the graduates we can get. Sadly they are put off by the false image of engineering. It is thus proposed that the title ‘Engineer’ is protected legally, like ‘Doctor’ or ‘Architect’. It would be restricted to those who are professional engineers or product designers, or those who have retired from the industry.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Engineering suffers from an image problem. People believe that engineers simply fix things, but we don’t: we invent things.

    Call yourself an inventor if you invent washing machines rather than fix them.

    Next problem?

    wrecker
    Member

    Bollocks. People sat at PCs using software should not have an exclusive right to the term engineer. They should be called designers as that is what they do.

    Neil S
    Member

    I’m right behind this. The term should be restricted to those who have professional registration.

    gonefishin
    Member

    It’s been tried before and the government said no.

    Bollocks. People sat at PCs using software should not have an exclusive right to the term engineer. They should be called designers as that is what they do.

    Quite right, it should be reserved for those of us with an actual engineering degree and/or full membership of an engineering institute.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    I thought an engineer was the person who operated a steam engine?

    wrecker
    Member

    LOL. Talk about ego.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Bollocks. People sat at PCs using software should not have an exclusive right to the term engineer. They should be called designers as that is what they do.

    Software inventor?

    I may change my job title.

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    Poor little darlings.

    All those NHS specs, 4 years at university without getting laid and now this.

    😉

    don simon
    Member

    Don’t proper engineers have the opportunity to differentiate themselves by using their degree without wasting govt resources by having hissy fits?
    BEng or MEng?

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    It is thus proposed that the title ‘Engineer’ is protected legally, like ‘Doctor’ or ‘Architect’.

    mmm, well I know people called Software Architects who wouldn’t know one end of a set of French curves from another and my old boss had ‘Dr’ on his business cards ‘cos he had a posh maths degree.

    gonefishin
    Member

    LOL. Talk about ego.

    I would say that the only ones with ego problems are the ones who feel it necessary to compansate for something by inflating their own job title to make seem like they are something more than they actually are.

    rkk01
    Member

    Engineer = Chartered

    engineer = something else…

    Different approach in Europe. Academic and professional qualifications are valued and respected.

    IMO It’s all part of the British (English?) anti-intellectualism

    wrecker
    Member

    I have some far far more competent (non degree holding) guys working for me now than when I worked at a very very large M&E consultantcy. They certainly deserve the term engineer far more than the degreed up ego maniacs who didn’t have a clue how a building and it’s associated systems actually works.
    The job title hasn’t been inflated, it’s always applied. It’s now being railroaded by insecure protectionist elitist with oversized egos and sense of exactly what they’re capable of.

    coffeeking
    Member

    I’m right behind this. The term should be restricted to those who have professional registration.

    This is the point I think. Professional registration through a known body means you have to have met certain criteria accepted as a standard by industry. Engineers are engineers, technicians are technicians. The difference isn’t blurry though one may take on the others role at times if needed. It provides clear understanding to anyone you engage with that you’ve met a standard and can classify yourself as someone who can do the job properly, unlike joe bloggs down the road who’s a handyman that fixes washing machines and calls himself an engineer.

    It has a good point, but it’s bound to rub salt in some wounds. The germans have such a system and it works well.

    IMO It’s all part of the British (English?) anti-intellectualism

    Precisely, it’s not cool to be qualified or respected, better to be joe bloggs in a back street putting lives at risk.

    5thElefant
    Member

    IMO It’s all part of the British (English?) anti-intellectualism

    Too right. You should be valued by what you achieve not by spending years avoiding doing anything useful and getting a piece of paper.

    rkk01
    Member

    Too right. You should be valued by what you achieve not by spending years avoiding doing anything useful and getting a piece of paper

    Clearly no idea what professional registration requires… 🙄

    coffeeking
    Member

    Too right. You should be valued by what you achieve not by spending years avoiding doing anything useful and getting a piece of paper.

    But that’s nonsense in reality. While there’s plenty of useless people qualified (and that’s down to the quality of eng courses, and a byproduct of reducing quality of A levels etc) there’s also useless folk with years of experience who are useless and know sweet FA but think they do.

    And FWIW, plenty of students and post-grads do very useful work that feeds into or is part of larger scale research projects, but only the blinkered (or those from pointless degrees) would not realise this.

    Clearly no idea what professional registration requires…

    +1

    wrecker
    Member

    Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

    Waderider
    Member

    This is a real problem in this country, the skill shortage with respect to actual engineers is large and growing.

    My father in law calls himself engineer. He isn’t the brightest and can’t do maths or write well – he worked as a turner (lathe operator). This is a common abuse of the term.

    You don’t put a sticky plaster on a kids knee and hence become a medical doctor……..

    gonefishin
    Member

    Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

    and when something goes wrong and people are killed, guess which one ends up in court.

    coffeeking
    Member

    Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

    A heating contractor with 20 years experience may be able to tackle a heating problem very well, he may even be able to tackle a refridgeration project. A properly qualified and registered engineer will generally be able to attack any project in his rough field (mech, elec, materials) with good technique, understanding of the theory and application and knowledge of the risks, as well deal with the budgetary issues of a large project, and manage the team of people etc. You’re comparing someone who has 20 years experience with someone who walks out of their last degree exam, which is stupidity.

    My father in law calls himself engineer. He isn’t the brightest and can’t do maths or write well – he worked as a turner (lathe operator). This is a common abuse of the term.

    You don’t put a sticky plaster on a kids knee and hence become a medical doctor……..

    The technicians where I work consider themselves technicians and are very protective of the term (with as much gusto as engineers!). They’ll actively point out that they don’t have the skills to calculate what’s required or design an experiment for X Y or Z, but they’ll laugh at you if you put something impossible to machine in front of them, and often help in the design process by feeding back what’s easy to make and what’s going to take them weeks. They ask us not to be technicians and to leave the making to them as they can do it properly 😀 Which is fair enough. It seems in the UK if you can put stuff together and are no better than experienced DIY standard, you feel you should be called an engineer as technician or some other term isn’t good enough for you. Funny.

    5thElefant
    Member

    But that’s nonsense in reality. While there’s plenty of useless people qualified (and that’s down to the quality of eng courses, and a byproduct of reducing quality of A levels etc) there’s also useless folk with years of experience who are useless and know sweet FA but think they do.

    That is my point.

    Getting qualified isn’t impressive in any way.

    Your work stands for itself.

    Trouble is, coffee king a heating contractor with 20 years of experience in his particular field will design a far better heating system than some multiskilled degree monkey who knows a fraction of whet the real engineer does. So that membership or whatever stands for very little.

    And, we don’t doubt that he can fit a central heating system better than me, no more than Tracey Emin can poo on a tent and call it art better than me, it still makes her an artist, me an engineer and the plumber a plumber.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Software Engineer here.

    Engineering degree? Nope. (BSc Computer Science)
    Membership of an engineering institute? Nope.

    Do I do engineering? Yup. 😀

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    My neighbour was a Boilermaker/Welder, and calls himself an ‘Engineer’. However, he lacks knowledge of basic engineering principles, physics and chemistry, and I’d have him down as a fabricator rather than an ‘engineer’. He isn’t happy that he isn’t actually considered an ‘engineer’ by current industry standards, and I think he used the term to enhance his professional status somewhat, but he’s certainly not someone who could be employed for many actual engineering tasks. You should see the shelves he put up in the lobby; they’re shit.

    And he makes a crap cup of tea. Definitely not an Engineer, as he lacks the fundamental skill that qualifies you as one.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Aaawwwwwwwwwww bless. Do you want some nice letters to put after your name on your business card?

    You engineers are a funny bunch.

    *goes back to studying this strange social grouping from a distance*

    coffeeking
    Member

    That is my point.

    Getting qualified isn’t impressive in any way.

    Your work stands for itself.

    Getting qualified, with a good degree standard, IS impressive as it provides the theoretical basis on which work is grounded. Those who attack things from an intuition level and experience are nothing more than people who’ve put in some time. Most engineering students work 40-50 hour weeks minimum for their time at Uni (if they’re not their course isn’t up to scratch) and are putting in just as many hours and just as hard a time as those who’ve been out “in the field” as it were.
    But the point is that what is being argued here is that only those who are professional engineers (i.e. those registered with professional bodies) can call themselves engineers, not those qualified with a degree in it – there’s a difference.

    The thing is being an engineer requires the knowledge and method of thinking you get from the degree, being a technician requires stuff you can learn on the job. What you’re confusing here is jobs that are effectively advanced technicians posts with engineers posts, which are often mis-labelled for reasons of making the job title sound better.

    Software Engineer here.

    Engineering degree? Nope. (BSc Computer Science)
    Membership of an engineering institute? Nope.

    Do I do engineering? Yup.

    Bearly, you were only let into the “group” grudgingly 😉 only kidding. Incidentally most electronics specialists have a LOT of programming experience – plenty switch between electronics and software with ease, and the opposite is true.

    rkk01
    Member

    Getting qualified isn’t impressive in any way.

    Your work stands for itself

    As, I said – clearly no idea about what professional registration requires – or is about.

    It IS ABSOLUTELY NOT about sudying for a degree and passing exams, although you need to do that first off….

    Gaining professional registration is about gaining relevant professional (on the job) experience. It is about receiving structured training and career development, under the mentorship of a senior colleague. It is about developing, and practicing,your professional skills – and above all, it is about understanding your responsibilities…

    Actually has almost NOTHING to do with studying an academic subject and passing exams. It is ALL ABOUT demonstrating your competence and profesional judgement within the field in which you work

    Waderider
    Member

    “who are useless and know sweet FA but think they do”

    I’m sniggering that someone typed this on an internet forum without realising the irony.

    I just got a bit of post saying I owe someone £130 to keep some of the letters after my name next year, not sure if that makes me an engineer or a mug?

    ‘spoon MEng AMIChemE (and some others I forget)

    TimP
    Member

    5thE,

    Getting qualified isn’t impressive in any way.

    It may not impress you, but it took me 6 years to feel I knew enough after uni to apply to get chartered, and it took a further year of report writing interviews and culminated in a 7 1/2hr exam with a pass rate of 30-40%, all outside of work (ie working weekends etc), so I am proud to use CEng. It was bloody hard work!

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Anyway, forget Engineers, I’m a Scientist. 😀

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE[/video]

    So ner! 😛

    wrecker
    Member

    Well I learnt more about theory (in my field) during my vocational training than I did through my degree.
    If you think that a high standard engineer has no understanding of how a system works, you’re mistaken. A high standard refrigeration engineer will smash a Beng Mechanical designers knowledge of refrigeration (design, service, theory etc) into the water. This really is a fact.
    The M&E consultants have a phrase for anything they can’t do. It’s called “design and build”.
    Maybe there is a broader abuse of the term engineer such as triggers “environmental engineer” but to say that the term belongs to designers is plain wrong.
    I shouldn’t get so defensive as there’s no chance of it ever happening anyway.
    Oh and a bloke I work with has loads of post nominals (memberships etc) no degree. He’s no better or worse than anyone else I work with.

    rkk01
    Member

    so I am proud to use CEng

    Rightly so – one of the most demanding qualifications to achieve…

    That’s not a false pride, ie, as posted by some above “diddums wants some letters after name” – it’s a real pride based on achieving something that will have required real determination and hard work.

    Why the hell does having a degree in engineering make you more of an engineer than someone who has served a recognised apprenticeship and done a day release/night school course?

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Erm, well I’d imagine it might be simliar to why does someone who’s done a Medical Degree get to become a Doctor, when a Nurse what’s worked for years on wards treating patients does not in any way.

    Why the hell…

    Snobbery? Possibly pedantry… it seems to be ‘de rigueur’ amongst this particular group.

    gonefishin
    Member

    A high standard refrigeration engineer will smash a Beng designers knowledge of refrigeration (design, service, theory etc) into the water.

    As a BEng qualified engineer who at one time desinged refrigeration systems for the LPG industry, I can say with confidence that there is no way a desinger will know more than me about the design and theory of such systems. Servicing them yes, but then servicing equipment isn’t the job of an engineer.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 110 total)

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