I guess the stories we are hearing are all the ‘best case’ ones – for every 15 yr old great car, there will be another that has cost a fortune in repairs.

Yeah, but if your fifteen year old car is a lemon, you sell it and buy a different one. It’s a bit different when your new or nearly new car turns out to be unreliable, and you can’t afford the hit on depreciation. I’m thinking of my old man being left stranded when his £40k Jag packed up.

I know your taking a risk as it’s not brand new. However, realistically these days cars are well made. Just look at how many German cars you see with 100k plus on the clock. All still fetching good prices on autotrader

I recently gave up my Company Car at the end of a 4 yr lease. It was a BMW 5 tourer, well looked after, serviced on the dot, with 80k miles, by me and wife. Never crashes, never thrashed. 4 weeks before it was returned it has a rear suspension repair that cost the lease company over £3500…

“As I just said – £1500 for fixing a faulty sensor on a 3.5 yr old Audi here.“

Have you researched it yet ? I still reckon it’s DIYable for peanuts and that price is just the dealer taking advantage.

Have you researched it yet ? I still reckon it’s DIYable for peanuts and that price is just the dealer taking advantage.

No, it hasn’t done it again so I am leaving it. I meant to have a check at the weekend to see if there was anything obviously untoward (such as a loose connection) but family life got in the way.

Leasing doesn’t seem to work our well for higher mileage which is why I’ve stayed in the company car scheme – I do about 25k a year and the lease companies aren’t interested because they’ll have a two year old car with 50k on the clock to sell on. However, I’m looking at buying my own when the vRS goes back because the tax is getting silly and I reckon I can buy something better / more interesting for similar money.

We swapped my other half’s 330 for a MINI last summer and PCP for a new car seemed to work well for us. We had a loan still to pay off on the BM and when we factored in VED, MOT and the loan, the monthly payment was more or less the same and then further bettered once the fuel savings were taken into account. My other half is only interested really in monthly costs and avoiding a £300 per year VED bill. We’ll loose more on the MINI but I’m hoping that a healthy discount will make that a bit more palatable.

The 330 was in all fairness a good buy – we lost £1,800 over three years and running costs where two sets of rear tyres (£750) one set of fronts (£300), VANOS repair (£280), front discs and pads (£???) rear pads (£££), servicing costs (£???) and three MOT’s (£150). Not too bad considering it was 10 years old when we sold it – it was solid, reliable and never let us down in the 20k that it covered with us. It was a much better car than my old E46.

The MINI should cost a chunk less – smaller non-runflat tyres, little brakes, free VED for year one then £20 thereafter etc.

“… then further bettered once the fuel savings were taken into account.“

Beware the trap of including this when looking at lease/buy, it’s not a function of the procurement method !

I’ve done some calcs and I don’t think leasing is for me but perhaps someone could confirm from the following.

From Lings Car website I can lease an Insignia Estate Elite Nav Auto for 3+23 payments of £485.22 = £12,615 plus additional mileage charge as I do about 15k miles per year.

I can buy a 1 year old same model car for about £16k. As there are 2 years left on the warranty I guess I get 2 years trouble free motoring so am only risking £3,400 after my 2nd year of ownership when the car is out of warranty? I normally keep cars until they are 6 years old.

Buying a 1 year old car seems far cheaper than leasing and changing car every 2 or 3 years in the same period. I’m not bothered about having a new car or the latest model.

Perhaps Vauxhall isn’t the best car to lease? I’m after an estate (or equivalent load size with back seats down) and it must be automatic. After that I’d like built in sat nav and dab radio. I’m not bothered about leather seats or performance but I do tow a trailer now and then so am steering clear of anything less than 1.6l engines.

Perhaps Vauxhall isn’t the best car to lease?

Not for £485 it isn’t! For comparison, an Octavia vRS (slightly smaller of course) estate is £270/month on Ling’s at the moment iirc. You can’t really be too picky, best to aim for what’s on a deal at that moment, or wait until the car you want turns up for sensible money.

then you get the people that start throwing optional extras a their hire car 🙄

EDIT: even a VW Toureg 3.0 is cheaper than that Insignia! http://www.lingscars.com/Volkswagen/Touareg/2385533-3.0_TDI_Bluemotion_Tech_V6_%28262bhp%29_R_Line_Plus_4WD_Station_Wagon_5dr_2967cc-personal.html#models

The reason the Insignia is so expensive on a lease is because the resale value is so low on them – the higher the residuals, the cheaper (comparatively) it is to lease – that’s why there are so many good deals to get on cars such as Audis and Mercs. For some reason BMW seem to buck this trend though – I have barely ever seen a good deal on one.

Legend: Thank you very much for your reply and info. That’s very interesting and certainly food for thought. That vRS comes with sat nav and DAB radio so it has everything I’d wan’t as standard at 3+47 at £280.58. I’d have to check on the additional miles penalty but it comes with tax included so a saving there. Certainly compatible to buying a 1 year old one so thanks again.

I ran a used Golf for 4.5 years. It was very reliable, only a couple of minor repairs like a sensor and a snapped spring. I worked out that ownership (depreciation, servicing/maintenance and VED) cost me £150 per month.

I currently lease a Golf and it’s costing me £221 per month (fully maintained).

So, in that comparison, leasing is significantly more expensive. However, the car in between them was a used BMW 320d and it was a money pit. I can’t even bring myself to work out what it cost me. It was an awful experience and one I vowed never to repeat. Hence, the price premium for the lease represents good value in terms of peace of mind.

“For some reason BMW seem to buck this trend though – I have barely ever seen a good deal on one.“

I don’t know what you’d regard as good, but having a quick look the other day there was a 520d M Sport Touring with 20k miles pa for under £400pm. 6+35 IIRC. Seemed a decent price with that mileage.

I felt tempted, but I can’t help thinking I’d rather have a 2yo 6 Gran Coupe for (probably) a similar overall cost.

I don’t know what you’d regard as good, but having a quick look the other day there was a 520d M Sport Touring with 20k miles pa for under £400pm. 6+35 IIRC.

Yeah that does sound pretty good compared to what I have seen in the past, howwver a very quick look found an A6 Avant S-Line for the same terms at £370 a month.

Just had a look on lingscars ,that is one mad website , brilliant.
The reviews on them seem pretty good too.
I have never considered leasing a car before ,I’ve always bought older cars, at least 3 years old, for cash and kept them for 5+ years .This has worked well for me as i have been lucky and not yet bought a lemon and have never had any expensive repair bills.
However £161 a month including ved for a brand new Nissan duke thing on lingscars seems like a great deal to me for worry free motoring and no tax or MOT’s .
I am not particularly interested in cars though and have no idea if a Nissan duke is good or bad?But when the time comes for a new motor i will certainly be having a look at what is available on there.

I guess that, from an industry point of view, leasing is great for selling new – and more expensive – cars.

I don’t quite know how the leasing rates are achieved, but I think they are generally supporting higher sales for the “premium” brands – because of the misty economics of depreciation rates for these cars.

I bet there’s something dodgy going on with corporation tax and / or VAT, too.

I looked into it the other day when this thread first appeared & with the mileage I do it would cost around £330 a month to get a mid-sized diesel estate (I looked at Civic tourer & C’eed estate) with almost enough miles for my requirements, if leasing for 3 years.

My last car (Seat Ibiza) cost me £7500 (at 3 years old), I kept it for 9 years & sold it for £400 – so £65/month. I bought it with 25k miles on it & got rid with 274k miles.
I keep a car maintenance saving fund running that covers all costs apart from fuel – so servicing, MOT, Insurance & tax. Only once was there not sufficient money ‘in the pot’ when I had to spend £500 replacing an a/c compressor. I think the amount varied that I saved, but averaged around £150/month.
So, actual ownership cost (erm, not including fuel) came to around £215/month.
That included everything though – maintenance & consumables for high mileage (4 different length commutes when I owned that car, went from 100 to 60 to 120 to currently 80 miles/day), tax, insurance including mid-spec breakdown cover & MOT.

Downside of buying a car & running it in this way is that technology moves on & an older car starts to feel old.

With a lease deal, I am not entirely sure what is included….I’d invariably have no MOT to deal with (if a 3yr deal) but I guess I’d still have to pay insurance, tax & servicing on top plus consumables like tyres, wiper blades etc….?

Dunno what my next car will be but I can’t see it being leased….

^^^^ but bear in mind that you would be running around in a less than 3 yr old car, with a max of 40k miles on it, instead of a 12 yrs old thing with a quarter of a million miles on it…. for maybe an extra £100 a month or so..

With a lease deal, I am not entirely sure what is included….I’d invariably have no MOT to deal with (if a 3yr deal) but I guess I’d still have to pay insurance, tax & servicing on top plus consumables like tyres, wiper blades etc….?

tax is usually included for the duration of the lease, but normally thats all thats included. You can get ‘maintenance inclusive’ leases which include tyres/brakes/servicing etc, but their costs are a fair bit higher than without the maintenance.

Whichever type of lease you go for (maintenance included or not) you have to pay the insurance yourself.

I think if you do under average miles per year (<12k) and you’re happy to have whatever car is cheap at the time, then a lease can be a very cheap way of running a new car.

If you do higher mileage, you want a specific car, or you just dont place any value in having a new’ish car, then leasing may not be the best option.

When I’m better off, I’ll buy a better car. But it won’t be because I give a shit about what people think about it. The opinion of anyone who cares what car I have isn’t important. [/I]

+1

I’ve always bought a car based around what I want.

This time we decided to get a ‘grown-up’ car (a 2-door coupe, but also have a Freelander 2 for bike/dog/horse duties). Previously I’ve always had 4/5 door cars due to kids/dogs/stuff etc, really since my first son come along (had a 309GTI at the time).

And FWIW we always buy ours, and keep until they’ve reached and age/mileage/condition that means they need replacing, and costs-wise

I know exactly the cost of running pretty much every car/motorbike I’ve had over the last 20 years – for example, 47k in an Omega 3.0i worked out at 45.54ppm all in 🙂

I guess that, from an industry point of view, leasing is great for selling new – and more expensive – cars.

I don’t quite know how the leasing rates are achieved, but I think they are generally supporting higher sales for the “premium” brands – because of the misty economics of depreciation rates for these cars.

I bet there’s something dodgy going on with corporation tax and / or VAT, too.

Nothing dodgy really. The capex are supported by the manufacturers through their local finance arms (VW FS for instance) who have access to very cheap wholesale money. But more crucially, VW FS can buy cars from VAG at extremely low prices that no dealer groups or large finance houses can. Plus they kind of control the second hand values through the network. It is a very smart way of discounting without giving away margin that the dealers would piss away. It also allows very fine/granular yield management…to the benefit of the cunning (and patient/lucky…) buyer. As a result, if you lease at the bottom of the market you probably beat depreciation by a good delta…

I think we will be leasing our next car. Some of the PCP deposits are just nuts, plus you never see that cash again. I found this website quite good
https://www.whatcar.com/car-leasing/

Different people will have different requirements.

Buying a cheap car and just using it locally with lowest running costs can work for a lot of people.

On the other hand, someone who needs a reliable car for work, and does quite a few miles will probably need something approaching greater reliability etc.

I had always bought cars outright, and a recent car purchase did make me consider the whole leasing issue.
I was lucky that there was a 0% finance deal for 3 years , my 4 year old car more than paid for the deposit.

However, I was considering laying out something like £13000 in cash for a car, this still seems daft to me.

£13,000 spent on a depreciating asset in one fell swoop, at least by leasing you are keeping your money and drip feeding the depreciation, and this assumes that you have that disposable money.
I think that most people would be better off leasing, but not all.

Once you have bought the car, unless you are very lucky, you are going to lose a lot of money buying for cash.

At lest with leasing, the money is still in your bank account

Yes but the money in the bank is depreciating too atm, with cash ISA rates at half of inflation…
Besides, the car depreciates exactly the same whether you own it or lease it…and you’re still the one paying for that depreciation either way.
On the other hand, if you do keep the cash and put it in property then that should be appreciating…

at least by leasing you are keeping your money and drip feeding the depreciation

You lease new cars – so you are paying the same depreciation (plus some profit for the lease company) as if you had bought new. However depreciation per year is far greater on new cars. If you buy used cars, you are paying far less depreciation.

Leasing might make sense for new cars, but new cars don’t really make sense unless you are minted. And you might be – if so, go ahead.

I’d love a new car, if only because I could spec it how I want.

Yep, money pits…..

However, I was considering laying out something like £13000 in cash for a car, this still seems daft to me.[/I]

You could nearly get two bikes for that!

£13k goes nowhere now when buying a new car, for example a 1.4 5dr Golf is £20k.

[Quote]iainc – Member
^^^^ but bear in mind that you would be running around in a less than 3 yr old car, with a max of 40k miles on it, instead of a 12 yrs old thing with a quarter of a million miles on it…. for maybe an extra £100 a month or so.[/Quote]

Not really because it was only 3 years old when I bought it. It was only 12 years old with 274k miles on it when I decided to get rid.
Even at 6 years old, which would have been around the time of renewing a lease (had I leased initially) it still felt fairly new and it was only 2009 so things like Bluetooth streaming and active cruise weren’t common place so it didn’t feel outdated.
Arguably at 9 years old it was starting to feel a bit baggy, but by then I was on a mission to get it to 300k miles. I would have done, had a baby daughter not come along…
…and £100 a month for 9 years is almost £11k saved. Hardly an inconsequential amount….

Besides, the car depreciates exactly the same whether you own it or lease it…and you’re still the one paying for that depreciation either way.

Only to a point.

As I understand it the lease companies purchase in large quantities for similar spec thereby lowering their purchase price of the car that you lease. They also recover VAT – making the car cheaper than and out and out purchase to order.

Certainly my last two cars have been less leased than the depreciation of the said car if bought new.

Lease only really gets uneconomical if you are fussy over spec and colour. And it largely depends on the offers for both ways of ‘purchasing’ the car.

I was with you up until that point. New and/or nice cars are intrinsically nice things to have. They are nice to drive, nice to be in.

And there you can see where the marketing people have won…. 🙁

I’ve had 2 new cars (work provided). I’ve bought 4 2nd hand cars, most expensive was £3500. But becuase I bought wisely it actually felt like a new car (and cost nothing to own bar basic servicing) in exactly the same way as the new ones.

And there you can see where the marketing people have won..

No, you misunderstand. I don’t buy new cars and I don’t recommend anyone does.

NewER cars are nice things. Partly because all the parts are new and tight, partly because modern tech and engineering is better, partly because of spec inflation.

The point was raised to counter Poddy’s assertion that people only buy new cars because of what other people will think of them. Whilst that may be a factor for some, it’s not for everyone.

This leasing lark, I take it you only pay for the lease, road tax, insurance and fuel?

Servicing costs and any repairs are taken care of by the leasing company?

This leasing lark, I take it you only pay for the lease, road tax, insurance and fuel?

Road tax included too. I just pay lease, insurance and fuel.

You will have to pay a maintenance charge to get the servicing, tyres etc included, for me was about £20pcm.

This thread has just prompted me to do the approximate maths on our current cars to see how they compare to the lease figures people are chucking around.
Mine is around £50/month taking in purchase, consumables, repairs, upgrade parts, MoT and far more regular servicing than a lease company would undertake. Would just need to adjust that if I sold it, which currently is about the value as when I bought it. Not a conventionally nice car, but does what I want, don’t think a new car would be as usable and a lease would sting me on condition which comes from using the car as I want. It’s basically a pickup with a roof and more go.

Not had the wifes car long enough for any meaningful figures, but after 18 months, we still haven’t spent the money from the sale of her previous car, purchasing and maintaining the current one. The previous one actually paid us about £7/month to run in the end.

You will have to pay a maintenance charge to get the servicing, tyres etc included, for me was about £20pcm. Bargain.

Well it depends how you look at it. I don’t like the idea of paying to service someone else’s car.

I’d have expected that servicing was included, i.e. there’s no option of the separate maintenance cost. The cost you see is the cost you pay per month to drive the car for xx,000 miles over x number of years.
Extra costs due to excess mileage are recouped on a per extra mile cost.

I reckon that a new £3,000 push bike will depreciate more than an old bike bought for £50. And both might satisfy someone’s requirements and/or budgets.
The same applies to cars.

Comparing old/farted in to new is not exactly relevant.

But if that’s done, then all parameters should be looked at.

Well it depends how you look at it. I don’t like the idea of paying to service someone else’s car.

I’d have expected that servicing was included, i.e. there’s no option of the separate maintenance cost. The cost you see is the cost you pay per month to drive the car for xx,000 miles over x number of years.

Well what’s the difference between £180/month plus £20/month for servicing and just saying it’s £200 for a lease including servicing?

You can take a chance on not needing tyres and just pay, say, £150 for a service rather than paying for a service/tyres plan.

Edit: As nick says, you’ll be very unlikely to find a brand new lease that’s cheaper than a second hand car (‘proper’ second hand, not pre-registered, delivery miles ‘second hand’). But leasing is almost always the cheapest was of getting a brand new car.

Well what’s the difference between £180/month plus £20/month for servicing and just saying it’s £200 for a lease including servicing?

Overall none. I’m just surprised that servicing appears to be optional, well at least not mandatory. I’d have thought the leasing company would insist on a maintenance schedule. You’ve suggested that you could just service it if you wanted. In that case, what’s the limit of liability if it goes wrong?

You just follow the manufacturers servicing schedule (stated in the Ts&Cs that you must do this), and if you didn’t maintain it properly you could expect to get hosed for it when you hand the car back

But becuase I bought wisely it actually felt like a new car (and cost nothing to own bar basic servicing) in exactly the same way as the new ones.

How do you buy a second hand car wisely? There are no automatic signs to avoid a wreck, otherwise car dealers would have it sewn up. You’ve just been fortunate.

Went to the dealer on Saturday and had a sit in it, very nice cavernous boot and a fair few gadgets. He wasn’t very chuffed mind as their deals were no where near.

Before going anywhere near buying, try to see if you can borrow a car for a weekend and actually do some proper miles in it, because it’s only when you’ve sat in a car for two or three hours that you’ll discover just how comfy, or not, the seats are going to be, or how little idiosyncrasies in design/layout turn out to be really irritating!
I have the luxury of driving two or three different cars every day, anything from sixty to seventy miles up to three hundred or so over a couple of days, and that’s when you find that the firm and supportive seats in the showroom turn out to be like church pews after three hours! I’m not a fan of Kia seats, but Hyundai seats are excellent, and I find their cars to be better finished and quieter than Kia, I had an ex-Motab Hyundai Tucson to bring home the other day, I nearly doubled its mileage, as it had 388 on the clock when I picked it up, and just over 600 when I dropped it off, and it was a lovely car to drive. Newer Qashqai are fine cars, and somebody mentioned the Juke, which, while I’m not fond of its styling, is a fun and comfy car to drive, quite quick and nimble.
New Vauxhalls are very well equipped, and the seats are very good, I’ve never had an issue with any VAG car I’ve driven, they always feel like they were designed for me somehow.
I’m not keen on how Mercedes lay out their control stalks, having the wipers built into the headlamp/indicators stalk with the auto-shift as a separate stalk on the opposite side of the column I find rather confusing, and not intuitive as an example of something that bugs me in use.

How do you buy a second hand car wisely? There are no automatic signs to avoid a wreck, otherwise car dealers would have it sewn up. You’ve just been fortunate.

There are plenty of signs to avoid a wreck, using your eyes and carefully going over the whole car, looking at its previous history and mileage are excellent places to start, low mileage doesn’t indicate how a car has been treated, but how the previous owner obtained the car gives a clue; Motability cars get abused, it’s rare to find one, even very low mileage, without body damage or being dirty and neglected. Often they stink through pets being carried or people smoking in them or both, someone I was talking to today who valets cars as part of his job working for a small dealer in Cornwall described a Zafira that he was asked to clean up, which reeked, and he found old nappies stuffed into the floor storage compartments!
A higher mileage company/lease car is much more likely to have been better looked after and servicing kept up to date, whoever gets the Maserati I had for about four hundred miles a while back will have a beautiful car, ten months old, 7500 miles on it, stunning, as is the Merc E220 estate I’ve got out front at the moment, 15 plate, a fraction over 14k, and it’s in showroom condition.
Or it was until I drove it home from Saltash this afternoon in monsoon conditions on the A30/M5!
The Tucson was an exception to the Motab rule, but it wasn’t old enough to have been abused; the first car I assessed when I started this job was a Qashqai, two years old with 16k on it – the only bits not scraped, or dented, or just plain dirty, were the alloys, astonishingly!