I ended up watching the footage on the news yesterday, I am often thick skinned when it comes to most things as I know humanity can be very low and very cruel, but watching that really got to me, absolutely chuffin horrible!

@somafunk Medics and other official by-standers are on the docket too. Maybe justice will be done though I was watching part 2 of the Hip-Hop documentary last night and Rodney King was on so I won’t hold my breath.

I have personal experience of American cops and it was mildly terrifying. I was staying in a hostel/hotel a few years ago and was woken up at 3am by incredibly aggressive hammering on the door. I of course ignored it because who opens the door to that. Somewhat belatedly they announced they were police, we opened the door to an immediate onslaught of shouted questioning asking whether there was a girl in our room – we mentioned our friend a few doors down and they go charging of to give the same treatment to her before finally screaming comes from the floor below and they realise they got the wrong room number for the report of a drug OD. The aggression they showed was insane, and knowing they carried guns was genuinely scary with someone acting that way, and all this was on a call that should have been to help someone. We were clearly confused foreign tourists and that did nothing to change their attitude; it really doesn’t take much imagination to understand how much worse it must be for the groups of society against which they have pre-existing prejudice, even without seeing the videos to prove it

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

I don’t think policing in the UK is the same as in the US (and I’ve lived in both). I think there is always a level of smugness among UK posters after each new cop murder in the US, but there is plenty to be ashamed of in the UK.

Case in point: Scottish cops asphyxiated a black man in 2015, and the public inquiry still isn’t close to concluding. “When Mr Bayoh was arrested by officers at Hayfield road in Kirkcaldy on May 3 2015, he was handcuffed, put in leg and ankle restraints, battoned to the head at least twice, and sprayed with CS gas and PAVA spray.”

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/edinburgh-police-scotland-kirkcaldy-b1041837.html

Anything other than perfect politeness puts you in the wrong and then things go wrong if you push. If plod says “stop” you do it, instantly.

This would be a really great idea if all police officers were fair, honest and calm individuals. But they’re not. The idea that citizens should so exactly what cops tell them to just because or expect a beating is a recipe for a police state.

And if your feelings are so delicate that your response to sarcasm is an instinct to violence – don’t join the police.

was the fact that the ambulance/paramedics and the fire service stood around and did not offer help to the victim for 30 mins

nothing different here. There was that guy with a council tax arrears the police decided to cripple as punishment and after deliberately smashing his leg in several places then using the broken leg and knee to torture him the ambulance refused to take him unless he gave his name

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

Sounds a plausible proposition but then I think to the eastern block countries that had less apparent inequality – and yet required massive organs of state oppression to keep their populations in line.

Of course they had the obvious divides between non party members, party members and the ruling elites, but gave the impression of more equality than the west. Maybe that was just a superficial view and there was far more inequality than advertised. Or maybe that proposition is wrong.

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil’s advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

nothing different here. There was that guy with a council tax arrears the police decided to cripple as punishment and after deliberately smashing his leg in several places then using the broken leg and knee to torture him the ambulance refused to take him unless he gave his name

Got a link for that story, please?

Got a link for that story, please?

I posted a link ages ago… I’ll see if I can find it again.

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil’s advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

Because
a) They didn’t expect him to actually die
b) there were non police controlled cameras

Surely you remember Peter Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes only really exposed through phone footage and 3rd party CCTV the police couldn’t delete before it went viral

Obviously a) doesn’t apply to Jean Charles de Menezes as they discharged multiple rounds into his head at point blank range… but Tomlinson obviously was just meant to be roughed up for not showing deference. However strange how Canary Wharf cameras were accidentally turned off and it was only the banker who sent the phone footage to the papers got the murderer caught…

@Cougar

https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/2019/6/kenyon-v-the-chief-constable-of-hertfordshire

but Tomlinson obviously was just meant to be roughed up for not showing deference.

I thought Ian Tomlinson’s death was caused by a rogue thug copper?

And on the other hand Jean Charles de Menezes’s death was the result of an officially sanctioned operation?

stevextc
Free Member

@Cougar

https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/2019/6/kenyon-v-the-chief-constable-of-hertfordshire

I see they broke his leg, where’s the bit about them using that injury to torture him?

Found a few articles about the incident but couldnt see that referenced

note: not saying what happened to him was okay

ernielynch

I thought Ian Tomlinson’s death was caused by a rogue thug copper?

Same as the stuff in the thread about the sergeant/other officers in the Memphis case…

No other officer saw anything…. until the phone footage was released – no-one told the “thug” to stop etc.
When you watch the video there are tens of officers see it… yet noone saw anything until the phone footage was released.

So not the same as the Jean Charles de Menezes incident then?

In that incident the other coppers weren’t simply uninvolved bystanders, they were active participants in the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes.

multi21

I see they broke his leg, where’s the bit about them using that injury to torture him?

Found a few articles about the incident but couldnt see that referenced

note: not saying what happened to him was okay

Somewhere the actual CCTV footage keeps getting onto YT and then the police have it taken down and it gets put up again – it’s not as bad as Memphis as at least you know in advance the guy doesn’t die…

What’s documented is one of the officers was unconnected to this convicted of rape of a vulnerable person https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54237900

The case the driver had a weapon and was threatening was throw out of crown court
The IPCC watching the video had no grounds for ANY wrong doing.

This seems to be up again for now (ignore the sarcastic comments compare to the solicitors account)

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

This.

Having just watched the footage I’m amazed any black person stops for the cops at any time.

ernielynch

So not the same as the Jean Charles de Menezes incident then?

In that incident the other coppers weren’t simply uninvolved bystanders, they were active participants in the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Obviously every “incident” is different… let’s not forget there are thousands of interactions between the police and public every day in which they are nothing but helpful….

My original point was when something un-towards DOES go on that it’s largely the same.
Cressida Dick has issued a kill order already… but noone on the ground questioned it (or if they did its not recorded)

Non of the officers take any steps to stop Tomlinson being assaulted (even though they don’t know he’s going to die) and non of them reported seeing anything…

It doesn’t seem every officer actively participated in the murder of Tyre Nichols but non of them intervened

It’s this that makes it something MORE worrying… the ability of one bad officer to not only drag others in but to expect a twisted backup of what happened from their fellow officers and the entire system.

Having just watched the footage I’m amazed any black person stops for the cops at any time.

What happens if you don’t stop?

However strange how Canary Wharf cameras were accidentally turned off and it was only the banker who sent the phone footage to the papers got the murderer caught…

Tomlinson was killed at Cornhill, which is some distance from Canary Wharf.

The Ian Tomlinson case is also a big stain on Keir Starmer’s CPS career, with the inevitable appearance of covering up

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil’s advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

I suspect burnout is part of the issue. People often misunderstand burnout – it’s not that people are just callous, it’s that well-meaning people get emotionally overwhelmed with situations they can’t deal with and the only way to deal with it is to ignore suffering. Teachers, nurses, doctors, etc. often suffer from burnout because they care too much, but are faced with situations that they just can’t manage emotionally. The paramedics who ignored the victim were probably suffering from burnout.

The thing for police is that they are often dealing with people who get a kick out of disrespecting police. Facing constant abuse from people will burn out even the best intentioned cops, so they just learn to ignore suffering. Members of the public respond to this by loathing cops and heap abuse on them at any opportunity, so you have a cycle of contempt and abuse. To break that cycle, you need to completely change the culture of policing, but it will take 10 or 20 years to see results. Voters don’t respond well to promises of change in 20 years, they want change right now, but that’s not realistic.

Non of the officers take any steps to stop Tomlinson being assaulted

What possible steps could they have taken to stop Tomlinson being assaulted?

The whole assault took less than 2 seconds. Tomlinson was struck at the back of the legs with a baton and pushed so that he instantly fell. The assault stopped at that point.

The killing of Ian Tomlinson was an appalling incident carried out by a thug wearing a police uniform, there is no doubt about that.

But it is hardly a very good example of police officers not intervening in an assault. I’m not even sure how many actually saw what happened.

Ernielynch

What possible steps could they have taken to stop Tomlinson being assaulted?

The whole assault took less than 2 seconds. Tomlinson was struck at the back of the legs with a baton and pushed so that he instantly fell. The assault stopped at that point.

The killing of Ian Tomlinson was an appalling incident carried out by a thug wearing a police uniform, there is no doubt about that.

But it is hardly a very good example of police officers not intervening in an assault. I’m not even sure how many actually saw what happened.

I haven’t watched it since shortly after it happened but my recollection is Tomlinson was already being pushed about.

Rewatching it looks like he is punched by another officer just before the fatal assault but there isn’t a lot of scope for intervention

However what is really more telling is non of them try and help him…. no-one takes the thugs badge number .. no one tells him “that was out of order I’m reporting/arresting you”
Indeed having looked again there is a lot of footage came to light (magically appeared) of the same officer assaulting multiple people (including press) the same day yet he isn’t reported/arrested

As was already said for the Memphis incident…

But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

The Ian Tomlinson case is also a big stain on Keir Starmer’s CPS career, with the inevitable appearance of covering up

I think what I’m trying to say is there is an expectation of covering up… that police saying “CCTV was not working” or accidentally deleted is accepted (until someone has other footage). Weren’t the tube cameras accidentally not working or accidentally deleted for de Menezes ???

Tomlinson was killed at Cornhill, which is some distance from Canary Wharf.

It’s been a while … I think the point is he was in an area with LOTS of CCTV that was conveniently “switched off”.
No one saying “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…”

Many years ago I was at a 999 Disco with a mate (police officer now retired) and a van of TSG pulled up and had everyone against the wall and jabbing at people with truncheons etc essentially trying to provoke a response.
Before they got to us they pulled a wallet out of someone’s back pocket who turned out to be a fairly senior officer.
(It’s decades ago so can’t remember what rank) except nothing happened other than apologising to the senior officer being the butt of jokes “It’s a 999 Disco who did you think would be queuing outside” and them pissing off.

I did ask my mate a bit later thinking they must have had a proper dress down but he said “nothing will happen it’s just not done” (or words to that effect) on a different occasion he’s said that sort of grassing is beaten out of you in Hendon.

However what is really more telling is non of them try and help him…. no-one takes the thugs badge number .. no one tells him “that was out of order I’m reporting/arresting you”

After being knocked down Ian Tomlinson sat up, stood up, and walked away. But you think the other coppers should have arrested the copper who struck him?

Have you ever been on a demo with lines of riot police?

Btw how do you know that no copper said “that’s out of order mate”? What are you basing that claim on?

What happened to Ian Tomlinson, a completely innocent man walking away with his hands in his pockets, was absolutely tragic and appalling, but I am struggling to see the similarities with Tyre Nichols’s death in Memphis.

After being knocked down Ian Tomlinson sat up, stood up, and walked away. But you think the other coppers should have arrested the copper who struck him?

They witnessed an assault… no way on earth was that not an assault

Btw how do you know that no copper said “that’s out of order mate”? What are you basing that claim on?

He wasn’t arrested and allowed to leave the scene despite plainly committing an assault on an innocent man.
It wasn’t the first either … and on no occasion that day was he arrested despite committing multiple assaults in front of other officers.

Have you ever been on a demo with lines of riot police?

I’m not seeing a riot here, I’m seeing them strolling… my mate was in a van in the poll tax riots with people trying to get the fuel cap off to set it alight. I can totally understand a panic under that sort of situation… walking behind an old bloke with his hands in his pockets who doesn’t get out of the way fast enough and show proper deference is completely different. He should have been arrested on the spot ..

what do you think would have happened if the situation was reversed and Tomlinson had attacked one of the officers with a weapon from behind? Do you think the others would have been too distracted to do anything?

What happened to Ian Tomlinson, a completely innocent man walking away with his hands in his pockets, was absolutely tragic and appalling, but I am struggling to see the similarities with Tyre Nichols’s death in Memphis.

The thug clearly expected to just assault innocent people with no consequences and more thugs were out the next day assaulting the public

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/apr/14/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-police

The new claims of brutality came as the chair of the IPCC faced renewed criticism after he wrongly claimed there was “no CCTV footage” in the area where police allegedly assaulted the newspaper vendor before he died.

Anna Branthwaite, 36, freelance photog­rapher from south London, told the IPCC she saw an officer push Tomlinson to the ground at a different location on Royal Exchange Passage, moments before the assault captured in the footage.

“It was a very forceful knocking-down from behind,” she said. “The officer hit him twice with a baton when he was lying on the floor.”

Again all of that in full view of other officers… statements from the IPCC chair claiming no cameras (about as believable as driving to Barnard Castle)

Do you really think if Tyre Nichols or Ian Tomlinson hadn’t died there would have been ANY investigation?
It’s tragic they died but if they hadn’t and they weren’t captured on camera they’d both just be “a n other” innocent member of the public assaulted by the police that day.

The Tomlinson killing wasn’t a spontaneous event that the police system couldn’t have prevented of you look at it in the context of the responsible officer’s career. Had his previous misconduct been addressed by the relevant forces or his fellow officers, he wouldn’t have been wandering around central London battering people in uniform that day.

he wouldn’t have been wandering around central London battering people in uniform that day.

He wasn’t supposed to be, he was a driver, he was supposed to be sitting in his parked vehicle. He was a thug who wanted a bit of action.

He wasn’t arrested and allowed to leave the scene despite plainly committing an assault on an innocent man.

Of course he wasn’t arrested. You live in a fantasy world if you think coppers are instantly arrested for striking someone on the back of the legs with a truncheon and pushing them.

This is what happens when police in full riot gear are deployed. I have been in countless situations where police have used truncheons, they don’t go around arresting each other. Not here or any other country on earth.

The problem for poor Ian Tomlinson was that he was totally innocent, in every way possible, he didn’t even have anything to do with the demo. If he had he might have not been so casual and would not have walked with his back to a line of police in riot gear.

If you expect the police to arrest each other as well as demonstrators at demos dream on.

I still see very little comparison with police brutality in the United States. And imo it is frankly disingenuous to suggest that there is one.

Of course he wasn’t arrested. You live in a fantasy world if you think coppers are instantly arrested for striking someone on the back of the legs with a truncheon and pushing them.

Seems to sum up the entire problem. Impunity to unprovoked assaults on the public unless….

The problem for poor Ian Tomlinson was that he was totally innocent, in every way possible, he didn’t even have anything to do with the demo.

Nope the problem for the police is he died and there was footage leaked to the papers the police couldn’t conveniently delete, the acceptance of officers making unprovoked attacks with weapons on innocent members of the public and the lies of the IPCC were exposed…

This is what happens when police in full riot gear are deployed.

So the brutal attack and torture of the guy with a council tax overpayment was what?
Are you maintaining the camera footage is fake or disputing the judge’s dismissal in the Crown Court or condoning assault and torture by the police of someone failed to sort out an overpayment in council tax?

Are you maintaining the camera footage is fake or disputing the judge’s dismissal in the Crown Court or condoning assault and torture by the police of someone failed to sort out an overpayment in council tax?

Apologies but I don’t know what you are talking about. I haven’t made any comments regarding camera footage or what a judge said about council tax overpayment.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

Apologies but I don’t know what you are talking about. I haven’t made any comments regarding camera footage or what a judge said about council tax overpayment.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

No I’m assuming you seem to be excusing police violence against the innocent public and are trying to pretend that what they do day in and day out beating the shit out of people that offend them is all fine.

I haven’t made any comments regarding camera footage or what a judge said about council tax overpayment.

Of course you haven’t because they aren’t wearing riot gear as they brutally assault, cripple and torture a guy who’s crime was a council tax overpayment (as the carer for his father) it goes against your narrative that

This is what happens when police in full riot gear are deployed.

No this is what happens when there is a culture of violence against the public for shits and giggles and a culture of covering it up and destroying evidence.

It’s so normalised the officers watching don’t even comment or arrest the officer doing it because that’s what the police do when they think no-one is watching, it so normal to them they don’t even pause. Ian Tomlinson died and there was video evidence sent to the press.. that’s the only different thing here.

Of course he wasn’t arrested. You live in a fantasy world if you think coppers are instantly arrested for striking someone on the back of the legs with a truncheon and pushing them.

This isn’t going to get easier for the police to keep hiding now most of the population has mobile phones …
They can’t just keep trying to suppress evidence and pretend this sort of thing is an isolated incident.

There is only one way I can see the police can regain ANY credibility…
Every officer who witnesses violent assaults against the public by a fellow officer without arresting the officer needs to be dismissed no questions.
Those covering up need to be given custodial sentences.

No I’m assuming you seem to be excusing police violence against the innocent public……

I didn’t really bother reading beyond that idiotic comment.

I was challenging your daft claims concerning the tragic Ian Tomlinson incident. For example that other officers didn’t attempt to stop the assault when the assault lasted less than 2 seconds. Also the ridiculous claim that they should have instantly arrested the officer, after Ian Tomlinson got up and walked away.

But probably the daftest suggestion of all is that the Ian Tomlinson incident suggests UK police are as brutal as the police in the United States and that it was somehow comparable to the killing of Tyre Nichols in Memphis.

Yet another thread gets dragged off topic.
Who’s done it this time?
How predictable.

ErnieLynch

Also the ridiculous claim that they should have instantly arrested the officer, after Ian Tomlinson got up and walked away.

So you are excusing the assault and cover up.. simple as.
It’s totally irrelevant he walked away … he was assaulted, they saw it, they did nothing.
This isn’t about the outcome, Ian Tomlinson was unlucky ..he could have had a bruised leg and the officer should have been arrested and sent to trail and given a custodial sentence.

As I’ve pointed out multiple times the only differences between this and thousands of illegal assaults by UK police every single day is he died and there was 3rd party camera footage they couldn’t suppress.

Why did he do it? Because he knew non of the other officers would say or do anything and any camera footage would be destroyed/lost/wasn’t working and the IPCC would lie to protect him.

Every officer witnessing unprovoked attacks on members of the public without making an arrest of the offending officer needs to be dismissed.
Any destroying evidence, lying and involved in cover ups need to have custodial sentences…

If you think that it’s ridiculous not to expect police to do their actual job and protect the public when its one of their own doing the assault/theft/rape then its no wonder the public have little or no confidence in them.

Yet another thread gets dragged off topic.

Off topic is pretending this is some problem unique to Memphis/US … anywhere but us.

The only time the police get held accountable is when someone dies and it can’t be hidden AND the police can’t delete the cameras. I’m sure Tyre Nicols wasn’t the only innocent member of the public to be brutally assaulted in Memphis that day.. but he was the one died and the police couldn’t suppress the cameras.

Somewhere in the UK at the same time some innocent member of the public was being assaulted by the police we just don’t hear about it unless they die and there is independent footage they can’t control/delete.

Watch the video above where 3 officers brutally assault and torture someone because they have received a council tax over payment. (Before the police get it taken down AGAIN)

They clearly expect (and correctly) they can get away with this just like the cops in Memphis.

The tragedy is had Tyre Nicols NOT died their helmet footage would have been deleted.. nothing ever happened… just like in the UK

the UK police…are still completely different in their approach to US police. Policing by consent of the population is actually a thing in the UK. De-escalation techniques are actively practiced. Ive been present when force has been used to subdue and control individuals on many occasions, and I’ve never seen unjustified force used, ever.

🤔

“Black people are seven times more likely to die than white people following restraint by police, new analysis of official data reveals…It is contained in a report released on Monday called I Can’t Breathe: Race, Death and British Policing. It alleges that the British system for investigating deaths after contact with the police fails black families and ignores racism as a potential factor.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/19/black-people-seven-times-more-likely-to-die-after-police-restraint-in-britain-figures-show