1. Report the teacher for abusing his/her role.

2. Maintain the status quo. i.e.do nothing.

I’m pretty sure some other options are open to me.

All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual,moral and cultural development.

I was talking about that on another thread a few days ago and as I said then I’ve been teaching 15 years, never seen it happen. Its a joke law everyone ignores, strangely its not that old though, from the John Major era I believe. Also if it was to happen daily I’m pretty sure my son would come home telling me about it just now, further as I described above it could easily be done in an inclusive manner.

You know that’s not true, don’t you?

Not for all, some do some dont. I didnt tell him this by the way, no idea where he got it from.

Hi Anagallis,

Did the incident happen during class-time or was it during the after-school club?  Was it a well meaning but naive new member of teaching staff or was the member of staff a bit more “fundamental” in their views?

My 8 year-old goes to a very NON-religious school that serves all sections of the community.  It has a history of being a very inclusive school but when a new Headteacher arrived about 2 years ago, things started to change.

The new Head invited a “Youth Group” to do some Community based work during lunchtimes and during after-school clubs.

Turns out the “Youth Group” was actually a spin-off of the local Christian church.  After I did a bit of research I discovered that the group in question had strong ties to Texan Christian Fundamentalists and have sent “envoys” all over the world (hiring office space at local churches and then working with local schools providing FREE resources and child-care) – quite attractive to any cash-strapped school.   However, the over-riding remit is to “disciple” as many young people as possible.

As you can guess, a number of parents were concerned.  I waited until the Head had his annual “Meet the Head” evening at school.  It was an open forum (that would be minuted) and after listening to his speech about how much “improved” the school was and letting everyone else speak, I hit him with a few questions like,

“Is it sill OK to read Harry Potter?  Do dinosaurs exist?  Is it OK to be gay?  What are your views on gender equality and the role of women? Is it OK to read “Winnie the Witch?”  Was Darwin wrong?

I also pointed out that the parent Texan Church was the only church that I had ever heard of with its own gun range and free “Consealed/Carry” courses after Sunday service.

He simply said that a “review” was taking place and that the work of the Youth Group would be considered.

The following week, I kept up the pressure with a well timed e-mailed (copying in the governers and the Head of the Academy.  I even “doorstopped” the leader of the “Youth Group” and asked her view on gay rights etc

Within a few days all parents received an e-mail confirming that the “Youth Group” no longer worked at the School and the School were ceasing all contact.

I’m inclined to give the Head a bit of slack and say that he was just a bit busy and didn’t do his research.  Thing is, I did.  That Texan church had some right weird Podcasts on its website.  All hell-fire and brimstone stuff.  Non-believers, blacks and sinners should die etc  Bat-shit crazy stuff that I don’t want my kid (or anyone elses kid) subjected to at all.

I’m not sure of your situation but if it’s these guys (https://paismovement.com/)  be very careful! They look all touchy-feely-nice don’t they!

As a fellow teacher, you will be well aware of the “Prevent Agenda.”  You have been warned!

It would be interesting to know if he was told to pray or just to bow his head. Also – in class rather than assembly? I wonder what the lesson was about.

I wonder if there was a child in the class from a Muslim background if they would forced them to fake a christian prayer too.

But yes, I’m with you OP – anything that smells vaguely of forced religious observance, especially of a minor, needs stamping on really hard.What the sad deluded fools want to do behind closed doors is up to them but the only way we’ll break the cycle is to prevent them from normalising ritualised religious observance/ brain washing to those in a position where they are force to comply, in this case through age and position of authority.

*only caveat – just make sure he wasn’t being a dick. All up for sitting up and looking around whilst those who must do their thing but probably best not to hum, talk or pick your nose. Even I have limits!

I wonder who is the best in here at fake praying. I reckon I’d be up there after years of practicing from primary and secondary school. We even had a singing version of the Lord’s Prayer. I think we should meet for a fake pray off. Perchy and SR can be the judges.

I’m a catholic – we’re all expert at fake praying 😂

Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.

Surely it’s the responsibility of the adults in charge at the time to have a reasoned and sensible approach to dealing with such a situation, not a small child.

Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.

It’s what I do should I find myself in those circumstances. Which is very rarely. I was brought up to work out for myself what to believe, my mum was questioned on this by some family members, and when she told them that, she was told, “oh, I do feel so sorry for you”, a condescending and patronising response that really got my mum’s hackles up. My dad had recently died, so couldn’t back her up. Not that she needed it. The point is, though, that I have no belief in a religious sense, I’m a pantheistic humanist, but I’m grown up enough to know that plenty of people do, a friend of mine of many years is a Catholic, her dad was Irish Catholic, and she went to Catholic schools. Should I be at some sort of event with her and other close friends where prayer was involved, then I would do exactly as in the quote above, out of respect for my friends and whatever beliefs they have. It’s only right and proper; to do otherwise is a real dick move.

I have only skimmed thru the thread.

There is no way a teacher should be doing this in class .

this is the right thing to tell the kid surely:

Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.

However I would be raising it with the school to find out what happened  Forcing kids to pray is not on

My question to you is do you believe in life beyond planet earth?

Life after death, no.  Life on other planets, statistically likely (though we’ll never meet them).

All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship

Doesn’t sound like what the OP describes fits either of those criteria.

It wasn’t religious education, it was religious practice.  And it wasn’t collective worship (ie, assembly), it was in an isolated classroom.

anything that smells vaguely of forced religious observance, especially of a minor, needs stamping on really hard.

Forcing kids to pray is not on

Without a parental request for their child to be withdrawn, that’s <b>exactly</b> what schools have to do though as the Link on the previous page stated.

Yes, it might get ignored by many schools, but apparently not by this one.

And he wasn’t being “forced to pray” either really was he. He was “told off for not bowing his head”

For a teacher with 30 wild 7 year olds to deal with, and one of them is refusing to cooperate with a simple request to stand still for 30 seconds and look at the floor so they can get something done that they are required to do, I can imagine it would be a reasonable for them to hand out a mild bollocking.

And it wasn’t collective worship (ie, assembly), it was in an isolated classroom.

collective worship doesn’t have to be in assembly. It can be done on a class by class basis, still “collective worship”

where was this anyway? Classroom/assembly ? I didn’t think the OP had said, although I’ve maybe missed it.

Bowing your head when people pray is just a sign of respect for others beliefs, not slavish indoctrination.

Bowing your head when people pray is just a sign of respect for others beliefs, not slavish indoctrination.

Could you explain why? I used to think this when younger but now I see it as an unreasonable expectation. Sure, keeping quiet and not disturbing is respectful but beyond that, nope, not any more. Maybe if you venture on to their home ground (church) but not in a public secular space. If I attend an otherwise secular event, club or activity that just happens to have been hijacked with some religious interlude I see no reason why I should bow my head whilst that intrusion takes place.

Not a fan of religion at all, but don’t knock others for practicing their faith. In year 4-5 of high school, we had to opt for either GCSE R.E. or non-GCSE.

I politely asked for neither and essentially got a free period to sit in and carry on with other things. If I ever end up attending christenings, I just sit quietly at the back and wait till everyone finishes chanting.

I don’t have kids, or plan on them, but I’d just support whatever they want to believe in (within reason). If they don’t want to believe in god, but get told off for not bowing, I’d want to have my say. Polite, but firm I’d say.

In a world of social media where all the nutters are telling us that Muslims are going to do all sorts of things because blah blah blah, it would help if all sides were a little bit more open minded and tolerant of other people.

I would be inclined to suggest chilling out a bit, but as I also said on a similar thread recently: I do agree with you. I find it utterly bizarre that religion is still mixed up with state-funded education here in the UK; but I find it additionally bizarre that children in a non-faith school should be told to pray.

And that’s someone talking from a faith perspective.

Yes, it might get ignored by many schools, but apparently not by this one.

Yet they have managed to avoid it for his previous 3 years at the school?

My money’s on the young’un messing about and getting a bollocking.

Definitely worth a chat with the teacher though ,especially if a non-faith school. Not Rage though.

PercyP & the funk master have made me spill coffee again. bastids.

fwiw Whenever in a church ,I always admire the architecture during prayers too. 🙂

Your son’s teacher is very unlikely to be religious so this policy won’t be one he’s enthusiastic about, he’s just told to say a prayer with the kids in his room so they do. In much the same way that they’d teach something in the history syllabus in the terms the Exam board want to hear it even if they didn’t agree with the perspective or perhaps was aware of new evidence that rendered a question pointless. If you speak to the teacher they’ll just say “Yeah, I’m not wild about it, but it’s my job.”.

Did the teacher really insist on a full head bow, or did they effectively say “Stop fidgeting” and choose an unfortunate way to phrase it? Frankly if I had to make a load of primary school kids keep still during a prayer I think it might be a lot simpler to say “Bow your heads” than explain the whole concept of going through the motions out of respect for others. In much the same way at my primary school if the teacher wanted us to shut up and keep still she told us to put our heads on the desk. Clearly there was no need to put our heads in the desk it was just a convenient thing that more-or-less achieved the ‘keeping still(ish)’ goal.’

*If* the policy really *is* that kids must pray during the prayer then there must be a way for kids to avoid this because there will be kids from monotheist backgrounds (Islam, Judaism, Jehovahs Witness) who don’t want to be involved for religious reasons. No doubt your son can opt out of this prayer in the same way as the kids from alternative monotheist religions do.

Personally, I think quietly bowing the head and taking the chance to reflect on loved ones or somesuch is *exactly* what someone should do when they find themselves in a situation where people are praying to a god they don’t believe in. So the school are teaching your lad the correct behaviour which he’ll find useful at weddings/funerals/christenings, plus occasionally in the work place. (I found myself taken to some ceremony in China by a work colleague and just kept my mouth shut and behaved respectfully, it’s no big deal.)

In conclusion your son can opt out, or just bow his head and keep quiet, the school won’t have a problem with either so no problem. Whether there should be praying going on in state schools is a totally different issue and way above the paygrade of anyone in your son’s school.

Just out of interest what does your son do at Christmas? No doubt he receives presents and engages in food consumption without buying into the religious context – that’s the equivalent of bowing your head in class while praying is going on.

Just out of interest what does your son do at Christmas? No doubt he receives presents and engages in food consumption without buying into the religious context – that’s the equivalent of bowing your head in class while praying is going on.

Its really not, ones pagan for a start.

Your son’s teacher is very unlikely to be religious so this policy won’t be one he’s enthusiastic about, he’s just told to say a prayer with the kids in his room so they do.

Cant see that being the case, he’s been at the school for 3 years and this is the first time he’s had to pray

Cant see that being the case, he’s been at the school for 3 years and this is the first time he’s had to pray

In which case, yeah, you should ask him what’s changed. No need to be unfriendly about it, but deffo worth asking.

I don’t have a religious bone in my body.  However I do have a live and let live attitude.

Both my children went to a small primary school which welcomed in the local church and encouraged discussion.  I was amazed when out one day and my son said hi to the local vicar and the vicar addressed my son by his first name.

after delving into it a bit I found my son had little interest in any specific religion but found the discussions and the vicar interesting.  I took that as a great show of maturity.  We had a discussion about the prayers and it included bowing his head etc.  He explained to me that as with other faiths (they had an Indian girl in their class who had arranged for a speaker of her faith to come in) he regarded it as a show of respect.  Nothing more.  If they find it important, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice for him to ‘join in’

My daughter couldn’t give 2hoots about religion tbh and probably picks her nose or tries to fart when asked to bow her head.  However she would, out of respect to those who do feel it is important, bow her head.

Try to be a little less outraged and let them show a little humility or take them out of school and you sort little lord fontleroys education out elsewhere

Weird how the act of communicating with the creator and maintainer of the whole universe and everything in it (allegedly) suddenly becomes such a small thing (or a matter of “respect”) when people object to taking part.

If prayer isn’t powerful, important or potentially life changing, theres no reason to enforce it.

If it is powerful, important and potentially life changing, then thats a very good reason not to make people do it with out their full consent.

I love that “respecting others beliefs” always seems to flow one way (respecting believers). Why can’t they follow the teachings of the bible and pray in secret? 🙂

I would sympathise more if you thought it was a Catholic school and they’d started teaching COE doctrine, or a Muslim school and they wanted to circumcise him.

I think you miss the point, that is, his child was upset about doing nothing bad.

OP. I think your approach of calming down first and then deciding a course of action is the best.

I can’t help but think the teachers reaction may be more about controlling 30 excitable 7-8 year olds, than enforcing a religious belief.

You won’t really know for sure until and if you talk to him or her, so go into school with an open mind and have a chat. Our lad is 9 and I’ve been to plenty assemblies to see how they are like meerkats when they’re bored – as most of us were. Lol’d at the making your mate laugh anecdote. Happy days. Amen.

Weird how the act of communicating with the creator and maintainer of the whole universe and everything in it (allegedly) suddenly becomes such a small thing

To an atheist it’s obviously a small thing. To a monotheist following an alternative god it could be a massive thing, but that’s not the situation here.

…and the original complaint has morphed from the lad being told to bow his head to the sudden introduction of prayers.  I think that probably *is* worth asking about. We’re in the last week of term, in the lad’s new year do they do an assembly or some such at the end of term? Or is there one crazy teacher unilaterally making his class pray every day. Worth finding out with a friendly enquiry and acting accordingly. I’m curious myself. (I assume this has been discussed by the class’s parents on FB/Whatsapp etc. Do they have theories?)

Yes, I am here but I’m still in shock about being asked to appreciate Leo Sayer.

Sorry.

If we could all just take a moment and bow our heads in silent prayer for Mr Woppit in his time of need…

To an atheist it’s obviously a small thing.

What makes you say that?

and the original complaint has morphed from the lad being told to bow his head to the sudden introduction of prayers

Dont think it has, you can introduce prayers in an inclusive manner as I suggested on p1.

I think your approach of calming down first and then deciding a course of action is the best.

Its parent evening in a few weeks time I’ll raise it then.

Or is there one crazy teacher unilaterally making his class pray every day.

From what I can gather they had been doing RE as boy started off by saying he liked the stories, then the class teacher decided to pray, I have no problem with that if he is allowed to opt out, with the caveat that he must behave and he may not have been.

I assume this has been discussed by the class’s parents on FB/Whatsapp

Dear god I have better things to do with my life!!! Wouldnt even know if such things existed and tbh I could name a single parent from his class.

I don’t think your son should bow his head.  I also think the teacher should show some respect for your sons beliefs rather than the other way around. It is the teacher who needs to do the learning here

Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very much this.

Its really not, ones pagan for a start.

Paganism is still a religion.

To an atheist it’s obviously a small thing.

That’s a bold statement.

If a theist asked for my kid to be quiet and respectful whilst they had a chat to their god, I’d say that’s fair enough.  If they were looking to indoctrinate my kid into their cult then that’s an entirely different kettle of whelks and I would be somewhat vexed.  Some folk might not care of course, but personally I’m not seeing much differentiation here between “those of a different faith” and “those of no faith.”

If an act in school – a secular school, let us not forget – would cause offence to parents of say Muslim kids or JW kids, then it would cause similar offence to this atheist.  In modern times there seems to be a movement of Religion By Stealth and I don’t like it.

I’ve said before, I’ve no issues with religions being taught objectively in the same way as you’d teach say History.  But acts of worship have no place in a secular school IMO, that’s what churches (mosques, synagogues, etc etc) are for.  I wouldn’t expect my local church to be preaching Trigonometry.

With the benefit of hindsight I shudder to think how many hours of my childhood were pissed up the wall singing hymns and praying and suchlike in assemblies every day.  I’d have been better served with an extra half hour of Maths.

The Lord’s Prayer five days a week every week for over a decade?  Give me strength.  It might have had some vague point if anyone had ever explained what it meant rather than just having us parrot it every day.  Bread and trespasses, what the hell is all that supposed to mean to a six-year old?  We used to buy a loaf from the corner shop every Saturday, some nice bloke there had a machine that sliced it for us.  I don’t remember anyone trespassing but we only had a small garden in front of a mid-terrace.  For years I thought Jesus’ dad was called Hallowed, and aged 46 I still have no clue what “thy kingdom come” is on about.

I agree with the others, respecting other religion means live and let live. If they want to bow and pray, then do so. The boy should not have to bow, he did nothing wrong. I would be talking to the school pronto. I would word it as giving them the opportunity to realise they must have misunderstood the boy….

If we could all just take a moment and bow our heads in silent prayer for Mr Woppit in his time of need…

Our forum that has no Kevin
Hallowed be thy name
Some mods do sponge
Some do have fun
On mirth, it’s often heaven
Give us this day our daily mash
And forgive us our trespasses
As we definitely don’t forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from ‘P’dom
For thine is the kingdom
And the power, and the glory
For ever and ever
Crocs

Assuming anything is foolish with kids they lie all the time! Or missremember.

Very true.  Yet you are asking us to talk you down from ‘raging’ at the teacher based on his version of events?

Give the old prayer a go yourself OP. See if you can get the teacher hit with a plague of locusts or something.

If an act in school would cause offence to parents of say Muslim kids or JW kids, then it would cause similar offence to this atheist.

Why? Monotheists typically believe some version of “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me” so they could (arguably) think it was a significant to sit near people praying to another god. (Although I doubt many do in the UK.)

In contrast to an atheist there’s no God being spoken to and no magic or mystery about religion. It’s just a mildly delusional person talking to himself.

With the benefit of hindsight I shudder to think how many hours of my childhood were pissed up the wall singing hymns and praying and suchlike in assemblies every day.  I’d have been better served with an extra half hour of Maths.

Yup, but that’s not what the OP is complaining about in this instance and decisions on worship in UK schools is way above that teacher’s pay grade. Indeed, over the last three years this particular school hasn’t done *any* praying except a single instance during an RE lesson.

Give the old prayer a go yourself OP. See if you can get the teacher hit with a plague of locusts or something.

“And Lo, it came to pass that wee did appear in the shoes of the schoolmaster.”

Yet they have managed to avoid it for his previous 3 years at the school?

Possibly, but just because they have been breaking the rules all that time, and it suited you, it doesn’t mean they can’t start sticking to the rules now.

If you don’t like those rules, the schools aren’t the right place to complain to, as they don’t make them.

in collective worship to enable pupils, wherever possible, to
share a single act of collective worship, while ensuring that
worship is appropriate for the pupils taking part.