Given that UKIP do well…

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  • Given that UKIP do well…
  • This is just brilliant in so many ways

    πŸ˜†

    Can’t help wondering what was going through the interviewer’s mind.

    Can’t help wondering what was going through the interviewer’s mind.

    “I really should have taken the Kate Adie assignment”

    chewkw
    Member

    D’oh! Newcastle council is still under Labour … dammit! Conservative cannot make any in road at all so next time I vote UKIP here.

    For the general election I will now vote UKIP instead of Conservative in the NE Labour stronghold because Ed Balls is getting on my nerves.

    The two Eds must not be in govt.

    πŸ™„

    So despite Croydon being a specific target borough for UKIP (and Nigel Farage only lives about a 15min drive away) they failed to win a single council seat, and instead simply split the Tory vote to allow Labour an unexpectedly large majority.

    Ukip vote helps hand Croydon to Labour

    “Many of those Ukip voters are Conservatives and they will be horrified to wake up this morning to a Labour council”

    So yesterday I was living in a Tory council but today I’m living in a Labour council – thanks to UKIP.
    Well done UKIP.

    chewkw
    Member

    ernie_lynch – Member
    Ukip vote helps hand Croydon to Labour

    “Many of those Ukip voters are Conservatives and they will be horrified to wake up this morning to a Labour council”

    Serve them right!

    Imagine South becomes the future stronghold of Labour while the North become Tories’ that I want to see in my lifetime. Ya! 😑

    slowoldgit – Member

    There’s a good comment on the Grauniad’s website…

    I suggest the main parties continue to talk down UKIP by labeling them negatively and continue doing so until next general election. 😈

    jambalaya
    Member

    There’s a chance, a slight one, that Lab may wake up and start to lose the metroplitan elite and move back towards what remains of their traditional support: the unions and the working people.

    Do the numbers work actually work ? Are they losing votes from the unions and working people and if so to whom, Lib Dems ?

    IMO the move to distance themselves form the unions is why they won the election and why they remained in power for 10 years. It was the crises and economic slump that did for them, pretty much whoever was in government left or right across the world was ejected (notable exception was Germany).

    Ukip vote helps hand Croydon to Labour

    “Many of those Ukip voters are Conservatives and they will be horrified to wake up this morning to a Labour council”

    What about Rotherham ? Quote form the Guardian. The surge in UKIP vote exceeds the decline in Tory and Lib Dem.

    Ukip has won 10 seats in Rotherham, in the process ousting several prominent Labour councillors, including the deputy leader of the council. The assertive victory was seized on by the anti-EU party as proof that it appeals to working-class Labour voters as well as disaffected Tories. The results far exceeded Ukip hopes and Labour’s worst fears.

    Premier Icon slowoldgit
    Member

    I suggest the main parties continue to talk down UKIP by labeling them negatively and continue doing so until next general election.

    … and continue regarding regarding voting intent as a single-axis chart. I’m old enough to remember the Swingometer, btw.

    Premier Icon slowoldgit
    Member

    What will happen if research finds part of the swing is from voters who didn’t normally bother, but found this a chance to throw a spanner in the works?

    What about Rotherham ?

    UKIP appear to be doing well in exactly the same areas as the BNP were 5 years ago, which is no great surprise. The BNP had a record of doing well in Rotherham but doing badly in Croydon, the same appears to be true with UKIP today.

    And remember that 5 years ago the BNP had a couple of MEPs and dozens of councillors throughout the country, indeed on a couple of councils the BNP was the official opposition. Today the BNP has been electorally wiped out and I believe have only 3 councillors left in the whole of the UK.

    There’s obviously something seriously wrong when people shit on their own doorsteps, but things should be kept in perspective, and rushing to the wrong conclusions isn’t helpful.

    jambalaya
    Member

    How come, for example, the US has a work visa requirement. How come if immigration isn’t an issue do we not have open borders from every country instead of just the EU ?

    @Northwind I cannot comment on your stats as to what the average man in the street believes the immigrant population to be, they are not my views or statistics. Its clear to me foreign aid is way behind spending upon the NHS, Education, MoD and welfare. I think to be honest most people in the street given a list would put welfare way down the list. One statistic I did see is that on the last census the Poles are now the second largest ethnic group in the UK, 500,000 whereas 10 years ago they where not even in the top 10. This has occurred since they where admitted to the EU. You can argue to contribution these people make to the UK economy and taxes etc but you cannot deny that since admission to the UK they have arrived in significant numbers. You are quite right in saying the political parties should counter misconceptions with facts, however all they have done is make reference to UKIP being “racists” and “loons”. If the facts are in their favour they should state them.

    @TMH – I’m not sure how I’ve benefited from freedom of movement of employment within the EU. I’ve lived and worked in the US and Singapore and in both cases I had to be granted a work visa. I am very much in favour of cultural and employment diversity and opportunity but it’s not so hard to fill in a form and pay a fee to cover the cost is it ? By having such a system you can directly target key skills required (for example in Australia where tradesmen are required not doctors and bankers) and if you wish you can focus on tax receipts as a factor, ie the more tax you pay the more likely you are to be granted a VISA.

    UKIP getting 30% of the vote in Sunderland without ever having a candidate before must be scaring the proverbial out of Labour, if its true what the BBC are reporting.

    how come, for example, the US has a work visa requirement. How come if immigration isn’t an issue do we not have open borders from every country instead of just the EU ?

    quid pro quo

    jambalaya
    Member

    @ernie interesting and fair points.

    In France the far right have been doing well where the far left where previously in power. You could be correct in that certain voters prefer more extreme parties and believe the middle offers nothing for them.

    My concern with your post is that it could represent a view that UKIPs support comes from the right/far right and thus for the left leaning UKIP is not a threat electorally. I believe their is far more diverse.

    My concern with your post is that it could represent a view that UKIPs support comes from the right/far right and thus for the left leaning UKIP is not a threat electorally. I believe their is far more diverse.

    I’d say there’s a fair chance that the right-leaning UKIP ‘protest’ voters will flock back to the Conservatives come a General Election to avoid the probablility of Labour getting in, whilst the left-leaning ones will stick with UKIP and not drop back to the Labour fold.

    JBY – I was referring to the fact that we have both lived and worked in Paris

    We are part of a union that has the free movement of people at its heart. True, like lots of EU-related issues the founding fathers play scant regard to its principles, but nonetheless the cherry picking on movement of people is odd. You either want free movement or you don’t. It’s very different from our relationship with RoW.

    mefty
    Member

    People who often argue there is no recovery for the less well off, also argue that immigration is positive for the country as it increases economic growth so is good. The argument that they miss, which is perfectly respectable, is that immigration is very good for the better off, but not for the less well off. The result being you can have something that is overall positive but negative to certain sectors of the society.

    jambalaya
    Member

    JBY – I was referring to the fact that we have both lived and worked in Paris

    I was employed by a UK company

    I think the free movement within the EU made sense when it was a small group, now IMO it does not. I doubt it’s possible to change the free movement part as the poorer countries will never agree to it and the French/Germans are too wedded to it politically. So that only leaves an exit for those that think immigration is an exit. Hence existence of UKIP.

    UKIP getting 30% of the vote in Sunderland without ever having a candidate before must be scaring the proverbial out of Labour, if its true what the BBC are reporting.

    But too scared presumably since Labour won 21 of the 25 seats up for election and UKIP didn’t win any ?

    BTW last EU elections in Sunderland UKIP got 14% of the vote and the BNP nearly 11%, so there is obviously a solid right-wing base there going back several years.

    So was I but I was able to choose where I wanted to live and to receive the benefits of living in France. I took a job potentially of a French person, so it would be pretty hypocritical to then say that I want to prevent other EU citizens making exactly the same choice.

    Freedom of movement in goods, services, labour and capital are fundamental to the EU. That’s the good bit…..

    We had our council elections here on the Isle of Wight a while back, and nearly every seat was taken by an independent. The previously comfortably incumbent Tories kept a few, but it really was a whitewash.

    What was good about the election was that there was a choice. You had to read agendas, but there was a genuine choice covering most of the political spectrum.

    Will it do any good? I can’t help thinking that a lot of previously inexperienced people are now feeling the sharp end of local politics, but the fact the desire to change was there is brilliant, and the resulting shake-up has certainly put noses out of joint.

    I imagine we’ll see the true result over the next few years.

    I’d say there’s a fair chance that the right-leaning UKIP ‘protest’ voters will flock back to the Conservatives come a General Election to avoid the probablility of Labour getting in, whilst the left-leaning ones will stick with UKIP and not drop back to the Labour fold.

    On that note, I’d say there’s a lot more Conservative voters who have just voted UKIP, hence the new Labour seats.

    El-bent
    Member

    How come, for example, the US has a work visa requirement. How come if immigration isn’t an issue do we not have open borders from every country instead of just the EU ?

    I’m finding this whole Anti-EU/immigration business a bit off putting. Is the EU really to blame? How are other countries in the EU fairing with immigration? Why are so many arriving here? And none of that benefits rubbish, it no excuse.

    One of the things cited by the French community residing in East London was our lax labour laws. They can get a job easier here. Another example to add would be the foreign workers who are working the fields in East Anglia. They are here because us Brits don’t want to do that sort of job any more, well not for that kind of money anyway.

    Why so many Polish builders? Is it because once again we don’t want to do that job, businesses wanting to pay less in wages, getting rid of the apprenticeships as us Brits aimed for the stars with a Uni degree? Also the middle classes wanting cheaper labour to build their extensions?

    All of the above have economic consequences, its our attitude to business that has caused this, the easier to hire/fire employment laws, the cutting of apprenticeships, the low wages, the lack of social mobility, the impressment of university degrees so their worth is less.

    But of course we cant talk business being the true cause of this. It would be classified as “anti-business”, which is why no mention of it will come from the mainstream political parties.

    The problem of immigration isn’t with the EU, its with ourselves.

    ninfan
    Member

    [Quote]This is just brilliant in so many ways:[/quote]

    Haha, he talks funny and appears to be from the poorly educated lower classes, that’s why his vote is less important than mine, tee-hee!

    El-bent
    Member

    Freedom of movement in goods, services, labour and capital are fundamental to the EU. That’s the good bit…..

    The Human rights charter, the better employment laws, a standard form of regulation. I guess these are the “bad bits” that you Tories wouldn’t want us oiks to have?

    El-bent – Member
    Freedom of movement in goods, services, labour and capital are fundamental to the EU. That’s the good bit…..
    The Human rights charter, the better employment laws, a standard form of regulation. I guess these are the “bad bits” that you Tories wouldn’t want us oiks to have?

    Your guess incorrectly on many points in the same sentence but never mind!

    The main bad bit is the folly of a fixed exchange rate – that aside there are lots of benefits of an open Europe.

    jambalaya
    Member

    @tmh – I just say we and anyone else has to apply for a work visa

    @el-bent Immigration is a massive issue in French politics for example. I’ve friends with first hand experience of Eastern european builders who are able to undercut their rivals by ignoring building regs. They also generally charge less as their families stay at home so they don’t need proper housing and I would guess many don’t submit tax returns.

    El-bent
    Member

    Your guess incorrectly on many points in the same sentence but never mind!

    Forgive me if I don’t believe you, but you do sound like the only benefits you like are the economic ones… πŸ˜‰

    El-bent
    Member

    I’ve friends with first hand experience of Eastern european builders who are able to undercut their rivals by ignoring building regs. They also generally charge less as their families stay at home so they don’t need proper housing and I would guess many don’t submit tax returns.

    Then the French have a similar problem as us Brits have with business and not the EU.

    Haha, he talks funny and appears to be from the poorly educated lower classes, that’s why his vote is less important than mine, tee-hee!

    Tee-hee! He’s totally missed the point!

    πŸ™„

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I think people are getting bogged down in the whole EU thing here, when for a lot of the vote, you need to be looking at something more visceral.

    I think the previous reference to the BNP is closer to the mark in some northern constituencies. A lot of people, including a metropolitan, London-centric labour party needs to face up to the reality of life in their former heartlands. If they ever went back there and went into some of the pubs and listened to the conversations, they’d soon realise that they’re a very long way from Islington.

    A lot of the post-industrial mill towns in the north have horrendously high levels of unemployment, and deprivation. There are large asian communities, but any talk of ‘multiculturalism is laughable! These communities are as segregated and ghettoised as apartheid South Africa. There is absolutely no integration whatsoever. This is what ‘immigration’ means to them. Not eastern European plumbers.

    Theres a lot of anger and resentment. And people look for easy answers, if not necessarily rational ones. The BNP harnessed it 5 years ago. And no matter what Farage does to mask it, its the same visceral feeling he’s harnessing and appealing too. Good old-fashioned Racism. Pure and simple!

    And it may offend liberal sensibilities, but you hear the word ****’s bandied around a lot in the working class white communities. I’ve stopped correcting the blokes in the pub. They do it deliberately now just to wind me up. The UKIP rep was in their the other night canvassing. The conversation turned to fitting machine gun turrets at Manchester airport. I kid you not.

    These are the people voting for UKIP. Its just a more resectable BNP to them. They’re not scary looking skinheads. They’re normal working blokes. BUt its a casual racism deemed acceptable. And it now has an electoral outlet.

    Do you see any of the mainstream parties seriously engaging with this issue? Because I don’t. So if the main parties assume that the rump of these people are going to just revert back to them at the general election, I think they might be in for a bit of a shock

    El-B, you are forgiven, you can think what you like since I also like personal freedom πŸ˜‰

    Do you see any of the mainstream parties seriously engaging with this issue?

    And I think that’s getting to the heart of the problem.

    grum
    Member

    binners – there’s a lot of truth in what you say but what do you suggest? That we just accept it or that the mainstream political parties need to be more racist?

    I don’t think it’s helpful to dismiss anyone concerned about immigration as a racist, but when it’s often tied up with genuine bigotry, hysterical rumours and misinformation it’s hard to have a sensible debate.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I’m not saying they should be more accepting of racism (though there seem to be elements of the Tories who’d be happy to head in that direction). Quite the opposite. But acknowledge it exists, and start looking at the reasons for it.

    Its complicated, thats for sure. But acknowledging the actual problem in the first place would help. Labour has retreated into the confines of Westminster. I genuinely think they have no idea of what its like in their northern constituencies. And they don’t even care. When Gordon Brown referred to someone as a bigot because they dared to voice concern about the level of immigration, I think thats probably quite representative of the attitude within the labour party. The Tory party haven’t got a clue, as they all live in places where the only immigrants they see are the ones who do their cleaning. Which always makes me laugh, that they’re the ones most vocal about the ‘problem’. They know eff all about it other than the SHOCK! HORROR!! stories they read in the Daily Wail

    So before any progress can be made, certain people need to acknowledge the reality of the situation, and the fact that this multiculturalism they speak of in their lofty speeches is clearly utter bollocks in a lot of communities.

    In the end, Its poverty, hopelessness and fear that cause racism. Perhaps if politicians parked their cynicism, acknowledged this fact, and addressed it, then we might get somewhere

    Until they do, then UKIP’s thinly veiled racism will continue to attract votes

    So what “exactly” are the issues that need debating by the mainstream parties. From the CEPS/LSE

    There are now over six million working age adults in the UK who were born abroad.
    This proportion doubled between 1995 and late 2013: from 8% to 16%. Immigration
    has fallen in previous recessions. This did not happen in the latest downturn.

    So is this a problem or not?

    European Union (EU) countries account for 28% of the total immigrant stock. New
    inflows of immigrants from the EU are now almost as large as inflows from outside
    the EU. Most EU arrivals are for work-related reasons. Most non-EU arrivals are for
    study-related reasons.

    So that’s dealt with the benefit scrounging issue – mainly workers or students?

    Immigrants are better educated and younger than their UK-born counterparts,
    especially those from the 15 countries that were members of the EU prior to 2004 (the
    EU15). The most recent immigrants are better educated still. Around 10% of all
    migrants are in full-time education. Immigrants are over-represented in the very highskilled
    and very low-skilled occupations.

    So even UKIP should be happy about having the “right-kind (sic) of people”

    Almost 40% of all immigrants now live in London. Around 60% of the working age
    populations of Brent and Westminster were born overseas compared with less than
    3% of those in Knowsley and Redcar & Cleveland.

    Its a regional issue if an issue at all

    Immigrants do not account for a majority of new jobs. The immigrant share in new
    jobs is – and always has been – broadly the same as the share of immigrants in the
    working age population.

    So forget some of the scare stories

    There can be economic benefits associated with migration, especially to fill gaps in
    the UK labour market – where there are shortages of workers. While there may be
    some small relative wage or employment falls for particular (less skilled) groups,
    there is still little evidence of an overall negative impact on jobs or wages.

    That’s that sorted then…

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    That’s that sorted then…

    Pfft, you with your facts and considered opinions.

    mefty
    Member

    While there may be
    some small relative wage or employment falls for particular (less skilled) groups

    That was the point I rehearsed earlier, the people who suffered feel ignored particularly by Labour, who they would most likely have voted for previously and therefore look for an alternative.

    Junkyard
    Member

    multiculturalism they speak of in their lofty speeches is clearly utter bollocks in a lot of communities.

    Its not really – though some like to argue it is – is just that some within our society are racist.
    You may as well argue we need to talk to bigots who cannot accept the gays marrying and its is a Westminster problem of ivory towers.

    I agree a sizable % of our population feel disenfranchised and blame foreigners for this and we need to address their fears but we need to do it with facts. Largely their fears are not that rationally based as THM so eloquently explained { nice post LIKES}.

    What are we meant to do – they are scared of a meme/myth that is not real – we can hardly ring fence this racist unicorn

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