So the end result is all that matters? Plenty of moral difference unless you subscribe to all sorts of other moral quandries being irrelevant if the end result is the same.

And, yes, there's clearly a big divide in opinion.

m_f – I guess I'm on a totally different page of F1 appreciation then, or chapter even. Obviously I like to see a scrap, but team-mates banging wheels is borderline, and Vettel's stupid lunge doesn't do anything for me. For him to then criticise Webber is just beyond absurd.

For Alonso to risk the team 1-2 by trying something equally risky on Massa would have held no joy for me either – it's just dumb.

Sorry, but fact is if any one of us were in charge of Ferrari we would do exactly the same thing, although perhaps in a more controlled or subtle way. McLaren and RBR are being disingenuous when they say otherwise too.

Roll on Hungary, come on Webber!

McLaren and RBR are being disingenuous when they say otherwise too.

At this stage of the season? The whole reason Vettel and Webber crashed was because RB didn't give team orders to let the faster Vettel past without Webber defending.

They aren't in the same situation at all. Webber and Vettel equal points, more or less. Same with McLaren. If any of them had only one driver that could possibly do the WDC then they would be doing exactly the same thing. And they know it – it's just games, trying to stir trouble. Ferrari and Alonso are a big threat now, and very soon Red Bull and McLaren are going to have to start making harsh decisions, otherwise the Championship will slip away from them.

Actually, McLaren probably won't have to, because unless they get a massive development boost they're going to get left behind. I reckon Alonso could very well get the Driver's, with prob Red Bull the Constructor's.

Possibly right though I'm not so sure McLaren would do actually – they didn't in 2007 in Brazil or China and it cost them…

As to who'll win, I honestly don't know – we're just over half way and there could still be a lot more swings in competitiveness – for example if McLaren can actually get the blown diffuser working consistently and effectively they may see a big step up in performance.

I think Jenson Button has performed better than McLaren predicted, giving them a problem they didn't expect to have. They are absolutely wed to Lewis, so they aren't going to do the nasty on him – so if Lewis stays in the lead then I think it likely that JB will start working for him at some point, but if JB has a good race or two then they've got a problem, because I can't see Lewis riding shotgun and I can't see anyone at McLaren asking him to. All of that will only matter if they get their act together car-wise, and I fear they're already max'd-out.

You see, I think one of the reasons McLaren have a great 'brand' is because they're a racing team and have a reputation for not compromising that even if it has meant missing out on WCs. Allowing them to race until one is realistically out of it is pretty core to their brand (and they've been very vocal about it in the past in the way that Ferrari never have).

I tend to agree that they probably didn't expect JB to be so good but then they didn't expect LH to be so close to FA and didn't hold him back.

For Alonso to risk the team 1-2 by trying something equally risky on Massa would have held no joy for me either – it's just dumb.

Why – it is a race FFS – that is what racing drivers should be doing – RACING. Ask any driver what they would prefer to do? Pull over because they were told to by the team manager or defend their position as Massa had been proving he was more than able to do.

I hope Alonso wins the DWC, and by just a couple of points, less than the margin between 1st and 2nd, just to see the vitriol erupt on here! It will be fun.

I find it a bit rich of Alonso TBH

After the Valencia race, he was crying that the race result had been manipulated & "eeezzzzzz not fair"

I just want the driver who has proved himself over a season to be the best driver in the best car to win it.

I am sure if Alonso wins it now (by such a small margin), he will always have it in his head that he only won because his managers made his team-mate (who he couldn't overtake on the track like a proper grown up racing driver should be able to do) pull over for him.

Just like I can imagine Contador will feel he has a slightly hollow victory in the TdF after taking advantage of Shrek's mechanical (which isn't in the spirit of the race).

I hope Alonso trips over his bottom lip when he's next having a hissy fit and suffers some minor injury that keeps him out for the rest of the season!

😉

That's pretty much the crux of it. I've said before that I think Alonso probably is the best overall at the moment and as such would like to see him win but I still think he should win because he deserves to, not simply because the team decide to give it to him.

Yeah Alonso MAY be the best driver, but the Championship isn't just about the driver – it is a combination of driver and car so whoever gets the best package should (and generally does) win.

Yes, we all know that but what's great about this season so far is that the cars have pretty much equalled out by reliability and performance.

Alonso is not the best driver. Hes passed his talent window.

No offence to Massa. Hes a good driver but not great. In a similar mould to Eddie Irvine who also came close to winner the Championship one year.

This year is very close due to the cars/regs matching the cars closely.

Alonso is constantly frustrated partly due to himself as hes talent is waning IMO. He wants to win but hes two years passed his best form. All thats left is frustation and petulence.

You're just dreaming if you think it isn't a team sport, sorry. I repeat, when other teams are in this situation (of having one driver much more favourably placed in the Championship) they will do exactly the same. As for McLaren, I don't believe they are any more of "racing" team than any other – they just are more persistent in spinning their image on that subject. Maybe the culture is a little different now that Ron has stepped into the background, but I doubt it.

m_f – obviously I know what the driver would prefer! That's irrelevant though – no driver has his own team, it isn't up to him. There is $300M behind each team each year – the stuff that most fans find exciting is not top of the team's priorities, no matter what they claim.

Put it this way, Coulthard has suffered badly over his career from team orders and inequality – and even he thinks the team orders ban is dumb.

I personally feel that Alonso is just getting started hora. He's only been in a Ferrari for a few tests and half a season of races. He will continue to build.

glenp is spot on with this – the teams are the people who pay for the entry to the F1 grid, they then hire the drivers and the drivers get to fight for a WDC as a reward for driving for the team (as well as trousering a few million). The team are more interested in the WCC but would like the WDC as well, so if they can get the same total number of points but increase their chance of winning the double, why wouldn't they?

If the drivers were to enter directly and hire a car from a team then we'd get rid of team orders, but that ain't how F1 works – or pretty much any other form of motorsport.

they will do exactly the same.

Maybe they will and I would view it just as dimly – this isn't an anti-Ferrari view, it is an anti-team orders view.

Yes it is a team sport, but the rules do state that it is illegal to have team ORDERS. Whether or not this is practically enforcible is another discussion completely. The point was on Sunday it made the race less interesting (I had been looking forward to seeing Alonso try to get around the moving obstacle in Massa). And as I have said before, I would rather see two drivers racing tyre to tyre for track position rather than pulling over because the team tells them so.

Team orders always have & always will happen

Ferrari simply mis-managed it, they could have swapped them round in the pits or moved Massa onto an aggressive fuel save mode
Domenicali is simply crap at his job when doing these sort of things

& Hora, I bet there's a lot of F1 teams out there that are glad you're not their tallent scout

That's very good – the expression on the poor guy's face.

Sad for Massa actually – he got very close to the Championship, but he's not going to get another chance I fear.