I feel I have to stand up for Mrs OOB, she deffo works more than her peer group in what I regard as a proper job, but I still resent the accusation that I’m the lucky one who is oppressing her when I’d be delighted for her to work 7 days a week if she wanted.

Where has anyone said you are oppressing her?

I feel I have to stand up for Mrs OOB, she deffo works more than her peer group

What, they don’t even make that sandwich?

‘Damning with faint praise’ comes to mind 😉

Raping your Wife was only made illegal 20yrs ago in Germany.

Gender equality has come a long way in a short time but still has some way to go.

Everyone should have the same life opportunity, healthcare and education regardless of sex, family wealth and race.

Everyone should have the same life opportunity, healthcare and education regardless of sex, family wealth and race.

You forgot quite a number of variables there including things like personality, what kind of sport you like, which team you support, what books you’ve read, what univeristy you went to, what accent you’ve got, how you dress, who your friends are…..

Christ we are so far from being remotely egalitarian or meritocratic when it comes to life outcomes it’s hard to know where to start.

The most troubling part though is when we are only able to identify the four basic variables against which (often apparent) discrimination is prosecuted.

The gender pay gap for women in their 20s is growing after years of decline, with some young women being paid less than men from the start of their careers, figures have revealed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/10/gender-pay-gap-widening-for-women-in-their-20s-data-shows

So without adding further fuel to the fire, why is this a choice as a couple and not female privilege? If the tables were turned, the OP would be a good for nothing scrounger.

Because they have made the choice that the man will “work himself into an early grave” while the woman does hobbies etc. If the man has agreed to it even though he doesn’t like it, he choose that lifestyle. The woman is privileged in that relationship, but don’t go extending that label of privilege to the rest of us women.

The gender pay gap for women in their 20s is growing after years of decline, with some young women being paid less than men from the start of their careers, figures have revealed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/10/gender-pay-gap-widening-for-women-in-their-20s-data-shows

Please can you help me find that data on the ONS website, specifically the one that shows the gap for women in their 20s because the it’s not in the data they’ve published:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/genderpaygapbyageintheuk

The grauniad is clearly using figures from a number of sources but unusually have not published direct links.

So without adding further fuel to the fire, why is this a choice as a couple and not female privilege? If the tables were turned, the OP would be a good for nothing scrounger.

Not to me they wouldn’t. They would have chosen as a couple for the woman to work and the man to do the other stuff.
I would guess the people calling the man a good for nothing scrounger would be the very same people on this thread struggling with the concept of privilege.

The grauniad is clearly using figures from a number of sources but unusually have not published direct links.

I went to the Fawcet society and looked at their report. They are linking to the ONS and indeed the data they are citing is published today by the ONS.

But this is odd – I’ve looked at two sets of data from the ONS and on one table, the median gap for 20-29 year olds is 0.8% and on the other, the one you’re working from, the gap is 2.2%

Why would two sets of data show quite different results?

I have only a very basic grasp of statistics, but that basic understanding is that the margin of error in any survey sample is 5% (2,5% on either end of the normal distribution.)

If the median gap is 2.2% then is it reasonable to suggest the data falls within the margin of error and therefore ostensibly meaningless? Is that why two sets of data from the ONS show two different results?

So without adding further fuel to the fire, why is this a choice as a couple and not female privilege? If the tables were turned, the OP would be a good for nothing scrounger.

Not to me they wouldn’t. They would have chosen as a couple for the woman to work and the man to do the other stuff.

^ this.

I would guess the people calling the man a good for nothing scrounger would be the very same people on this thread struggling with the concept of privilege.

I think that would be a good guess. It’s surely difficult for all of us to look outside of our peer-experience. Just because most of the females I’ve encountered/befriended/related with have been (and continue to be) at least as hard-working and focused as my male friends – but it would be easy to project those views across the board. So when diametrically opposed ‘women’ such as the wife me tiond earler who literally only makes a sandwich and spends the rest of her life in leisure at her husband’s expense…yet is actually working harder than the majority of other women he encounters?!

How do we see through this confirmation bias and projection? Obviously one of us can’t be wholly correct.

Using Guardian links for ‘facts’ 😆

Using Guardian links for ‘facts’

For once, we agree.

Using Guardian links for ‘facts’

Actually the Guardian is quoting Fawcett Society and they are working with ONS data. The data set they are referring to is here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/datasets/annualsurveyofhoursandearningsashegenderpaygaptables

The one I’ve been looking at is here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/genderpaygapbyageintheuk

I suspect that the differences in the data they show are explained by simple error but I don’t know enough about stat’s to dig further into that.

The ONS says its preferred measure is the median, since this helps account for the big impact that a small number of very high earners can have on the data.

Irrespective of the variance in the ages 20 through 40, both sets of data show the same pattern; a very big jump in the gap at the age of 40.

That’s the marker we should be trying to understand and the Fawcett Society this morning said that the main problem is that more women are self selecting out of higher paying roles in order to manage child care and that the reason women do that, is because men are discouraged from doing it and discriminated against with things like SMP/SSP imbalances.

Using Guardian links for ‘facts’

Shooting the messenger as a riposte 🙄

I have only a very basic grasp of statistics

I realised this when you accused the entire ONS database of all wages of having a sampling error and then argued it was not significant. Perhaps you will stop these sort of ripostes to facts you dont like?

That Bill Burr video posted back there was initially amusing and thought-provoking (anti-traditionalist/anti-sexist/ageist), right up until he characterised women/feminists wholesale as those who would leave everyone else to burn in a house-fire? Yes, tradition says ‘women and children first’. But to characterize feminists as unprincipled no-marks who when threatened revert to ‘traditional women’ (ie cowardly and entitled, ‘save me first, let the others burn’) is just, well, shit. And sexist. Oddly enough 🙄

*Edit. Wait, it was a joke? Oh that’s OK then. It’s not like there aren’t jokes about men being mostly drunken rapist child-minded layabouts. Here’s another … ‘you know, the thing about negroes…’

… like the thing with peer-groups…

right up until he characterised women/feminists wholesale as those who would leave everyone else to burn in a house-fire? 

yet there is no problem characterising white men wholesale as privileged or men wholesale as oppressors of women? Hypocrisy.

I realised this when you accused the entire ONS database of all wages of having a sampling error and then argued it was not significant. Perhaps you will stop these sort of ripostes to facts you dont like?

OK so I’ve read up on sampling error and confidence intervals.

For the data set I was looking at, the margin of error at the 95% confidence interval is 0.2%.

I understand now that if the ONS data shows a median figure of 2.2% in the difference between what men and women earn, then sample error means that difference could be either 1.8% or 2.4%.

Is this correct?

To give some context, based on an average salary of £27,000 the difference is anything from £486 to £648.

there is no problem characterising white men wholesale as privileged or men wholesale as oppressors of women? Hypocrisy.

Wait, I thought white men were ‘beta cucks’ who can’t stand up to the black man any more because the black man is overly-entitled from PC politics?

No, wait, white-men/arabs/jews/foreigners are everything wrong with the world.

*Edit – wait, if it wasn’t for white men then we’d all be still be living in mud-huts, huddled together like sly, lazy, cowardly women.

No wait, if it wasn’t for different peer-groups, and different peer-group ‘humour’, then we could maybe all agree on gender and racial stereotypes?

geetee1972 – Member
…the Fawcett Society this morning said that the main problem is that more women are self selecting out of higher paying roles in order to manage child care and that the reason women do that, is because men are discouraged from doing it and discriminated against with things like SMP/SSP imbalances.

I heard that assertion on R4 but it sounded a bit dubious to me.

I have a two year old so I know a bunch of couples in this position we met at NCT etc and I don’t think I’ve ever heard any of the women say they wanted to go back to work once their maternity period is up. Not saying it never happens but I just don’t think it’s generally true. Usually they say they don’t want to go back to work at all, but have to for money reasons.

Usually they say they don’t want to go back to work at all, but have to for money reasons.

I dont think you need to have kids to have reached this conclusion!!!

Can we just keep the trolling ironic instead of nasty?

Again, we are all actually much closer in opinion than you think, you’re just all jumping down each others throats again for **** sake. I fon’t think there are any hardcire MRAs or SJWs on here.

Keep it interesting, and the goading amusing. *gets popcorn*

One woamn contributing good sense to this thread now, but it’s dominated by macho men doing what macho men do.

I’d better get out then as another loud male in the room can only make things worse.

Usually they say they don’t want to go back to work at all, but have to for money reasons.

You know that that is literally the only reason most of us work at all?

that was my point i did not mean to express it like ” macho men doing what macho men do.” apologies if it comes across as such

You know that that is literally the only reason most of us work at all?

Listen, nothing fuels good old-fashioned gender-equality debates better than administering frequent stunning doses of Protestant Work Ethic. Away wi’ ye egalitarian claptrap laddie. Real men worked down pit for 26hrs a day just so women could have something restorative to eat (other than a free yogurt) directly after shagging the milkman. Waheeeey, etc.

OK, enough OTT satire-trolling. But really. C’mon now.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard any of the women say they wanted to go back to work once their maternity period is up. Not saying it never happens

This is where I get flummoxed. This summer two of my friends gave birth, and both of them couldn’t wait to get back to work so are currently working to balance/enable that imminent eventuality, along with input/changes from the respective fathers/partners. Both are/were self-employed and happy in their careers, facts that could be more informative than a simplistic ‘gender-bias’ conclusion which is what I tend to argue against. Same experience working in education – many/most of my female colleagues never considered giving up their jobs to full-time child-care. Many also came in to the workforce in their 40s once their children had grown and they were ‘freed’ from a traditionalist M= breadwinner/F = mom/domestic chores arrangement/expectation.

Peer-experience really does colour our views.

gonefishin – Member

You know that that is literally the only reason most of us work at all?

Believe it or not, some people are good at and like doing their jobs.

My wife for example, is a primary school teacher specialising in SEN and absolutely loves it. To the extent that she buys extra resources and such out of her own pocket so the kids get the best start in life. You would not have met a more motivated person. In fact she turned down promotion which would have meant considerably more money, because it meant spending less time teaching.

However even she did not want to go back to work after having our little girl, and she was saying that within a few days of her being born. I felt no such change (well a little perhaps but nowhere near the same extent) and AFAIK neither did any of the other dads I know.

So once again I’m not saying it never happens but I think the Fawcett society is overstating the point.

You know that that is literally the only reason most of us work at all?

I thought it was because we were all privileged and out chasing our dreams whilst being propped up by women in traditional gender roles?

Somebody better tell the feminists it’s not like that afterall.

and AFAIK neither did any of the other dads I know.

Well my anecdote, for what it’s worth (i.e. nothing it’s an anecdote) is that in my circle of friends who have kids it is the Father who has stayed at home whilst the Mother works.

You know that that is literally the only reason most of us work at all?

Which defeats the idea that full time work is a privilege and men are the winners in the typical UK situation where women are doing, on average, a bit less of it because evil husband makes her stay home to “wash his pants”.

and AFAIK neither did any of the other dads I know.

Ditto. Overwhelmingly in my circle of friends and aquaintances after mat leave the mother drops to part time/hobby work and the father picks up the financial slack. I can only recall one case where a father gave up work and mother carried on working and once case where father and mother both went part time.

I think the fact that maternity leave pay can’t be taken into account for a mortagage demonstrates is pretty good evidence that women tend not to go back full time after mat leave.

Well my anecdote, for what it’s worth (i.e. nothing it’s an anecdote) is that in my circle of friends who have kids it is the Father who has stayed at home whilst the Mother works.

In the interest of balance. In my experience, both parents go back to work immediately and leave the babies at home on their own.

Or both parents stay at home on their arses and sent the baby out to get a job.

There we go, we’ve covered all the options now.

Well my anecdote, for what it’s worth (i.e. nothing it’s an anecdote) is that in my circle of friends who have kids it is the Father who has stayed at home whilst the Mother works.

Just to put some numbers on the anecdote: Did you do NCT? How many in the class? How many of those mothers gave up full time work after Mat Leave.

Or both parents stay at home on their arses and sent the baby out to get a job.

I’ve vote for that, let the baby have the privilege!

Just to put some numbers on the anecdote: Did you do NCT? How many in the class? How many of those mothers gave up full time work after Mat Leave.

I don’t have kids. I was talking about my circle of friends. I’m not really that interested in the details of their respective NCT classes.

I don’t have kids.

Oh right. Well FIFW before I had kids I also thought most women went back to work full time after maternity leave.

Now I have kids so I know lots of people with kids and I’ve learned that women often don’t and men usually do.

And when you have kids you quickly get to know lots of other people with kids of the same age. So if 5-6 people on this thread with kids from random areas of the country each reckon a trend is going dramatically one way you’re probably getting into a statisticaly meaningful sample size. Say 20 closeish freinds each, maybe 50 nodding aquaintances. Significant numbers of people they know through various local parents whatsapp/facebook groups. People forecast elections on those numbers. I really don’t think it’s a contentious view that a mjority of women go part time and a mjority of men don’t.

Objective evidence of this is a) Statistically women become disadvantaged in the work place around the time they are likely to have children. b) MAternity pay doesn’t get taken into account when getting a mortgage. All the evidence points one way.

Somewhere between overwhelmingly anecdotal evidence, conflicting and confusing statistics, MRA vs feminist stereotypes, regional and class differences…there is an answer?

So we’re all agreed that women are the lazier/lesser-motivated/more-entitled gender and that men are (ironically) more typically and disproportionally discriminated against compared to other genders and ‘races’? While ‘white males’ overall are generally moreso discriminated against as ‘over-privileged’ when in actuality it is women who tend to take the ‘easy’ route of entitled and over-benefited/over-privileged as opposed to their male counterparts? Along with ‘non-whites’ who are now ‘over-privileged’ from ‘positive discrimination’?

Is that about the state of things?

Which defeats the idea that full time work is a privilege

Who said that full time work is a privilege?.

Privilege would be displayed by the more privileged person getting a job based on things other than their ability to do the job, i.e. sex, colour, background, parents etc,. etc,.

I still can’t see how people are struggling so much with the concept of privilege here

So we’re all agreed that women are the lazier/lesser-motivated/more-entitled gender and that men are ironically, typically and disproportionally discriminated against compared to other genders and ‘races’, while ‘white males’ overall are generally discriminated against as ‘over-privileged’ when in actuality it is women who tend to take the ‘easy’ route of entitled and over-benefited/ober-privileged as opposed to their male counterparts? Along with ‘non-whites’ who are now ‘over-privileged’ from ‘positive discrimination’?

Straw-Woman Fallacy.

Kerley. I think its difficult for privileged people like the vast majority of us on here to understand that they are privileged as they have never seen the other side. Fortunately there are a few who can and their contributions have been valuable IMO. But for too many they simply cannot see or understand it because they have never experienced discrimination

Straw-Woman Fallacy

Fake news. Sad.