I will always denounce Fascists and Nazis. Of that, you can always be certain.

– hopefully so would everyone else.

Do you think that the perceived threat (rightly or wrongly) to our current Western freedom is where he's really coming from?

Ernie – I often agree with you but not this time.
Where did the BNP come from?
I thought the discussion was about the issue he has with the increase of radical Islam and its intolerance.
Let's not turn it into another anti BNP rant please – we all know about them and probably feel the same way as you, this is a bigger issue and debate. The BNP are so small as to be insignificant – radical fundemental religions of whatever flavour are bad.

I thought the discussion was about the issue he has with the increase of radical Islam and its intolerance.

Well since Britain is not a radical Islamic country there is no need for him to come over here to lecture us.

Where did the BNP come from you ask ……. well did you read the OP ? Apparently he said quote :

"We should be proud of our tolerant culture because in Islamic countries if you are a homosexual, you are likely to be beaten or killed."

So whilst he's over here, if he really is that concerned about the plight of gay men, all is not lost (the British public can't do much for gays in say Iran) he can denounce the British National Party, which is indisputably the most homophobic political party in Britain.

And it is particularly relevant because the BNP thinks that he is a really great guy – did you actually click on my
link ? It takes you directly to the BNP website. Do you know of any other political party in Britain which supports Geert Wilders more than the BNP ?

Of course he won't denounce the BNP because he doesn't give a toss about gay people being nail-bombed by BNP members. As I said, he is a liar and a hypocrite. The BNP connection proves that.

But surely anti-semitism is hatred towards the Jews (as in race of people) not Judaism?

How does THAT make any sense?

Wilders/BNP Connection Ernie?

You mean the BNP support some of his statements? Hmm, thats a bit of a dodgy interpretation, given the BNP/Labour policy connection (‘British jobs for British workers’,'gulags for slags')

or are you suffering from the old selective memory problem again?

I mean, lets be fair, the total number of deaths from terrorist attacks by Christian Fundamentalists in the mainland UK in the past decade? oh, yeah, nil – so, which problem presents the greatest threat to our society at the moment?

You mean the BNP support some of his statements? Hmm, thats a bit of a dodgy interpretation, given the BNP/Labour policy connection

The BNP/Labour policy connection ? You really are scrapping the bottom of the gutter Ratty. Still, I guess the fact you are forced to do just that, shows how desperate and morally bankrupt you are.

Of course we could all play that game and I could mention your guru Dan Hannan's "policy connection" with the BNP over the EU.

Furthermore, I don't know why you are throwing the BNP/Labour slur at me – I don't actually support Gordon Brown or New Labour. Although I do support "British jobs for British workers". Which of course the BNP doesn't…….they support British jobs for some British workers.

.

"You mean the BNP support some of his statements?"

No I don't mean that at all.

I mean that the BNP supports him to the hilt……one hundred percent. You were obviously quicker to comment on my post than you were to click on the link which I provided. Here it is again : http://bnp.org.uk/tag/geert-wilders/

You'll see that they are even selling his book for him – have you got a copy of it ? I'm sure that his extreme intolerant fascist views are right up your street.

I am a bit tired and really cant be bothered with the usual paranoid spoon fed Dail Mail little englander ignorant cr@p – is it their secret sixth pillar of faith to murder us all? Do you think the way we treat Islamic nations has any impact on the behaviour of these radicals? You know the way we suport the totalitarian regime in Saudi Arabia but oppose it in Iraq…. can anyone work out which one of these regimes is pro Western and buying our weapons?

Off to bed lets hope I will not wake up under Sharia Law as a Muslim with a beard, an arranged marriage and a murderous desire to convert you all to Islam or murder you for your sins.

He is a racist neo nazi – facing prosecution in the netherlands for his racist view.

He is playing the same game that the BNP play and some of you have fallen for it – making public statements about Islam that on thae face of it if you believer the daily wail line seem reasonable – however if you read up a bit more about him you will see what a nasty rasist bigot he is.

He is fairly likely to be arrested and tried for incitement to racial haterd if he states the same racist drivel here.

He is a foul untermensch

Zulu – how many Muslims killed by "Christians" over the last decade – millions in Iraq and Afghanistan – millions.

How many Muslim countries destroyed by "Christian" countries?

I wonder why they are a bit cross

Millions TJ?

methinks you're getting carried away with the propaganda!

Latest Iraqi government figures are just over 85,000 killed by violence 2004-2008 – not good, but hardly millions, and that includes those killed by fellow muslims…

How many Muslim countries destroyed by "Christian" countries?

I wonder why they are a bit cross TJ

I think it's more a case of intolerance and fundamentalism that people are fearing with extreme Islam as a religion – rightly or wrongly.

Zulu – how many Muslims killed by "Christians" over the last decade

TJ – beware of Ratty's diversionary tactics …… he wants to change the subject.

Let's stick to what this thread is about, ie Geert Wilders coming to Britain telling us, quote : "We should be proud of our tolerant culture" despite the fact that his most loyal supporters here in Britain are the utterly intolerant and homophobic thugs of the BNP.

Happy to stay bang on subject – does anyone have a say in who supports their point of view.

Typical labour socialist totalitarian bollocks, close down freedom of speech to protect their failed exercise in social engineering through multiculturalism

edit – note careful use of the word multiculturalism rather than a reference to immigration or racial integration!

Zulu – millions – ( there was a typo in there – should hav read couple of decades) the estimates for Iraq since gulf war one are into the millions – that includes all the children that died from lack of medical care because the hospitals were bombed and medicines not available and the water is foul due to the bombing of water treatment plants – you need to look beyond the propaganda.

the lancet give 650 000 for example and most folk who look into this think that an underestimate. I don't think the lancet is generally considers socialist propaganda – and that figure does not include the deaths from military action in the two gulf wars.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

ernie – point taken – I suspect wilders will be arrested and either deported or tried the first speech he makes – he is clearly too thick to stay on the right side of the law.

TJ, the millions figure is, frankly, rubbish – Cluster sampling of 47 points, really reliable, and ripped apart by the actual death figures from the country! The study put over half a million of the deaths down to violence, with the remainder due to increased mortality from other sources.

So, whats more accurate – an extrapolated statistical survey based on cluster samples, or an inspection of the actual records by the Iraqi government…. Hmm, I wonder – you're suggesting a margin of error of that magnitude in the actual physical records of deaths and burials are you? so 90% of the actual deaths have not been recorded on the ground! sorry mate, the survey is bollocks!

The lancet is bollox? Interesting – Those statistical methods are commonly used and are reliable and valid? Do you understand how an statistics like this work? Clearly not.

Both this and the earlier study are the only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods.

From that well know socialist propaganda rag the Washington post.

The Iraqi government that over most of that time has controlled a tiny % of the area is reliable?

So we have somewhere between 500 000 and 750 000 between 2003 and 2006. since 1990 millions is a reasonable estimate accepted by all neutral parties

You have your head up your fundament and its totally worthless arguing with you. I sha'n't bother again.

edit – note careful use of the word multiculturalism rather than a reference to immigration or racial integration!

Ah, I see that like the BNP, you attempt you use weasel words to hide a racist statement Ratty.

I have long spotted your fascist tendencies Ratty, but as I said on a recent thread, I have never been aware of you making a racist comment before.

Explain what you mean by "multiculturalism". Are you referring to Irish culture ? Asian culture ? West Indian culture ? Italian culture ? It stinks of racism to me.

And what do you mean by, quote :

"labour socialist totalitarian bollocks, close down freedom of speech to protect their failed exercise in social engineering through multiculturalism"

Labour socialist totalitarian bollocks ? We have had far more Conservative governments in the last 100 years than Labour governments – was Conservative government policy different to "Socialist totalitarian bollocks" ? How so ?

I can understand why you've come on this thread to defend a Dutch Fascist btw.

Well, firstly theres the baseline pre invasion death statistic of 5.5 per 1000, used to extrapolate the 600k figure, which would categorically not support the allegation of a significant death toll due to sanctions prior to invasion, so thats one major anomaly

and secondly theres the iraq body count report, and also the U.N. Development Program reports, that do not support the figures shown in the lancet report.

You're choosing to shout about one set of data, reported in a single publication, that appears very significantly anomalous with the rest of the, equally peer reviewed, studies out there that do not support your assertion of millions of deaths.

Now, you can say I've got my head up my arse, but having spent years doing a little job involving statistical research and systematic reviews of available studies, I can comfortably comment that the mass of evidence out there does not support the figure reported in the lancet study – as someone who works in the field of health, I'd expect you to understand the danger of relying on a single study and data set in drawing a conclusion of mortality, and that if one set of data proves so anomalous compared with all the alternative studies, then the obvious conclusion is that it is wrong.

however that wouldn't support your bias and preformed conclusion would it?

the U.N. Development Program reports, that do not support the figures shown in the lancet report.

Well done TJ ……. you've managed to let Ratty divert the thread away from his Dutch Fascist buddy 😐

…. you're on your own now mate.

Ernie – I suggest that if you want to call me racist for commenting on the 'failure of multiculturalism' you take it up with Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the CRE, who said the same himself… I'd suggest he might know a little about the subject – nice of you to walk straight into that elephant trap 😉

Mind you, you'll also remember that your good mate Red ken said that Trevor "would soon join the BNP", and given their recent change in rules, maybe he was right

It's like hearing the same worn out left wing rhetoric that has always been peddled when an argument was lost – thou shalt not criticise anyone of any other race, creed or colour or I damn thee a racist.

The entire question is about freedom of speech. The ability of someone to express a point of view, the only caveat is that it must not preach violence or hatred. Now, irrespective of which view you hold that picture posted earlier in this thread of the demonstrators does precisely that – read the placards.

I don't give a flying ferk what your political views, on any subject – I for one would like to hear them (and Ernie we hear yours endlessly!) and then make up my own mind whether you are credible or an idiot.

Your insistence on making anything in the far right taboo makes it appealing to the marginalised and disenfranchised in society – well done! It will only make the rantings of the BNP and their ilk appear more credible.

And, before I trot off to do something more enlightening – what is this myopic fixation with only one political extreme – there are, IMO, some fairly unpallatable views held by those on the far left – ah, but that is to criticise some of their favourite policies such as multiculturalism and that is taboo – ergo I must be a racist, damn, damn, damn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=det7TUsLy8U&feature=player_embedded#

Ernie – sorry mate.

Roger – freedom of speech is not and cannot be an absolute. You do not have the freedom to make inflammatory racist speeches nor do you have the freedom to be libellous.

If you so believe in freedom of speech am I free to say that "as you support this racist you must be a racist"? No.

Do I have the freedom to say Jews should be killed – all of them? No.

Do I have the freedom to say that all Muslims are murderers? No

Do I have the freedom to say that doctors who perform abortions should be killed and BTW here is the address of one of them? No

I don't believe in " no platform for racists" however I also believe that we should be able to exclude from our country people who's presence would " not be conducive to the public good" – who's intent is clearly not to have an open and free debate but to stir up trouble. This power has been used many times against people from all sectors of the political spectrum – from neo nazis such as Wilder to religious zealots from many sides.

freedom of speech is a qualified right not an absolute right – it is qualified by the need to sty within the bounds of decency and the mores of the society you are in.

So if Wilders was British he should be allowed to speak here but be prosecuted after the event if / when he breaks the law as he clearly will do. As he has no right to be in this country and he espouses views that are totally abhorrent to the mores of our society then he should be barred from entering.

nice of you to walk straight into that elephant trap

Ah, you set me a 'trap' did you ……… how clever of you

Only I wasn't asking what Trevor Phillips meant by what he said.

I was asking you what you meant by what you said – I suggested that it stunk of racism. You daft fascist plonker.

Anyone going out on their bike today?

Wot? when there is a good argument to be had on here?

Anyone going out on their bike today?

I've already been out for a short ride on the Pompino to spin out the lactic acid from my legs after yesterday's ride.
Going for a longer ride on the Scandal in about three-quarters of an hour's time – down to my sister's for lunch/big family reunion 8)

I suggested that it stunk of racism. You daft fascist plonker.

Here you go again, falling back into the old format…

Now, then, are we sitting comfortably? Lets deconstruct your comment – if Trevor phillips can say that multiculturalism is a problem, [1] and archbishop John Sentanu can say it, [2] and [3] and then Bishop Nazir-Ali can say it [4] Then just how the **** can the comment itself 'stink of racism'?

No, it cannot can it? however you've chosen to interpret it in a manner which was not evident in any way from the comment itself, you chose to jump in with both feet with a conclusion that was unsupported by either the comment, or the context it was said in, as you thought that it would reinforce your petty bias that anyone who disagrees with multiculturalism must be a racist – and you see, this is the problem, people cannot have a sensible discussion about the facts without people like yourself dragging out the R word whenever their argument falls apart!

So when Wilders comes into the country making perfectly sensible and lucid comments, that do not in themselves break any laws – after having been cleared for entry by an impartial tribunal which rejected the allegations put forward by a labour politician for refusing him entry – you immediately man the barricades and denounce him as a BNP supporter, despite the fact that you have no proof at all of any contact between them, indeed Wilders has specifically called BNP Policies disgusting, and he himself is hated by the neo-nazis in his own country as a 'blonde zionist' [5] However, whats clear is that you dont want to listen to reason, or have a reasonable discussion about the facts, you just want to have your own petty and simplistic political view of 'left wing good. right wing evil' reinforced – Get off the socialist worker reading left wing bandwagon and stop jumping to conclusions you recalcitrant Bolshevik penis!

"sensible and lucid" comments? Have you read what he says? Have a little google. Stuff like a £1500 tax on anyone wanting to wear a headscarf? Calling the Quaran a book full of hate that tells muslims to kill all christians

The man is a rabid racist – no doubt about it. He is being prosecuted in the Netherlands for this.

You last shred of credibility just left.

I didn't refer to what he had said elsewhere, I mentioned the validity and legality of the comments he made while he was here – but, since you mention it TJ…

Calling the Quaran a book full of hate that tells muslims to kill all christians

Oh, Sorry TJ – is that untrue then? Does the Koran not say that?

Oops, yes, unfortunately it does… now, what was that about credibility?

(The bible tells us to kill gays too, I'd be just as happy with Wilders calling that a book of hate!)

Winston Churchill compared the Koran to Mein Kampf, maybe he was a Fascist as well? 🙄

I think Zulu has a point here!

Here you go again, falling back into the old format…

Is calling Gordon Brown a 'totalitarian socialist' a new format for you Ratty ?

"denounce him as a BNP supporter, despite the fact that you have no proof at all of any contact between them"

I keep providing you with a direct link to the BNP website. Loads of suff on the Dutch Fascist, such as how quote, "Nick Griffin Joins Petition for Geert Wilders" and how you can buy Geert Wilders's hate-filled book through the BNP.

The BNP clearly see him as some sort of Messiah, as you also obviously do Ratty, you daft right-wing freak.

Here's the link again :

http://bnp.org.uk/tag/geert-wilders/

And if you haven't bought the book yet, do it here (and you can also buy your BNP mug at the same time) :

https://excalibur.bnp.org.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Islam_19.html

BTW, you might also be interested in 'The Gollywog Collection' :

https://excalibur.bnp.org.uk/acatalog/The_Golly_Collection.html

you lot crack me up……… 😆

Ernie – can you offer me a single comment in which Wilders has expressed support for the BNP, in any way, shape or form, express or tacit?

Earlier, you said that he had failed to condemn them, however I've pointed you towards the comments in the Telegraph interview: "in the European Parliament his four MEPs will not ally with the British National party, he said, claiming he had never met a BNP Member. "I understand they talk a lot about blacks and whites. This is disgusting," he said.

So far, all you seem to have demonstrated is that the BNP will try to ally themselves with anyone who says anything remotely in accordance with their own policies, whether that person wants their support or not – thats like saying that the BNP support Gordon because they lent him their gulags for slags policy!

The most amusing thing of course, being that the BNP are about as right wing as Joseph Stalin – its essentially a collectivist platform. nationalisation of industry, introduction of co-operatives across the farming industry. their policies are almost entirely socialist, paternalistic and totalitarian, far more in accordance with your own beliefs than mine Ernie!

TandemJeremy – ok a more reasoned argument than the one mustered by Ernie the shop steward for the knee jerking left. Ernie – if the BNP decide to support you for whatever reason, does this automatically make you a facist? No, it makes them even more stupid. If, however, Geert Wilders reciprocated you have him bang to rights so stop drawing conclusions that are spurious.

TJ – Roger – freedom of speech is not and cannot be an absolute. You do not have the freedom to make inflammatory racist speeches nor do you have the freedom to be libellous.

Of course you are correct, freedom comes with responsibility and I did not suggest, or did not intend to suggest, that the freedom was abolute.

If you so believe in freedom of speech am I free to say that "as you support this racist you must be a racist"? No.
Do I have the freedom to say Jews should be killed – all of them? No.
Do I have the freedom to say that all Muslims are murderers? No
Do I have the freedom to say that doctors who perform abortions should be killed and BTW here is the address of one of them? No

However, young Ernest here seems happy to allow this privilege to minority groups such as those in the picture who are quite clearly inciting people to murder and violence by the evidence of the writing on their placards.

I don't believe in " no platform for racists" however I also believe that we should be able to exclude from our country people who's presence would " not be conducive to the public good" – who's intent is clearly not to have an open and free debate but to stir up trouble. This power has been used many times against people from all sectors of the political spectrum – from neo nazis such as Wilder to religious zealots from many sides.

Agreed, absolutely so why is it not applied equally for all individuals, it just seems that to criticise some groups elicits a cry from certain political groups of racist, something I would find more than a little offensive. There are political and religious subversives of many persuasions who are allowed into our country and who stir up hatred in others without being taken to task. And, when the authorities choose to do so they are pilloried by the likes of Ernie when they remove them, this is plainly wrong.

freedom of speech is a qualified right not an absolute right – it is qualified by the need to sty within the bounds of decency and the mores of the society you are in.

Again I agree, absolutely.

So if Wilders was British he should be allowed to speak here but be prosecuted after the event if / when he breaks the law as he clearly will do. As he has no right to be in this country and he espouses views that are totally abhorrent to the mores of our society then he should be barred from entering.

I agree, but he is a European resident and has the freedom to travel between member countries so your op
Roger – freedom of speech ening comment is incorrect, he has every right to come to this country. Again I would suggest we are open to a cast iron accusation of hypocrisy because we only apply this to certain groups, we have to apply it in an absolute manner.

Interesting debate, if we can keep it in the realms of grown ups, not descend into the traditional name calling and not don our political blinkers it could be enjoyable. 😀

I'm not even going to bother commenting on that bollox ^^ Ratty.

"far more in accordance with your own beliefs than mine Ernie!" …..yeah yeah, I'm a BNP supporter.
It's so obvious really.

Ernest here seems happy to allow this privilege to minority groups such as those in the picture who are quite clearly inciting people to murder and violence by the evidence of the writing on their placards.

Do you just make it up as you go along rogerthecat ?

Do you just make it up as you go along rogerthecat ?

No, I just do not recall you ever questioning the right of other minority groups from entering the UK.

Also interesting that, as is your wont, you fail to address the main point of the argument.

and the answer is???????????????????

OK I am really confused now as a Muslim what should I do?
It was clear, well om STW yesterday (as this is clearly the correct sorce for interpreattion of the Koran as all here are arabic speakers and a recognised authority on the subject)
Right so when I meet a christian am I trying to convert them , impose Sharia law or Kill them*?

Reference please[awaits google search and trading of the Koran] and I believe Jesus [if you beleive the book said]

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Matt. 10:34–35)?

I am also worried that Christians are coming now to get me with their swords to ruin my family please help