Viewing 40 posts - 241 through 280 (of 290 total)
  • G20 Protest death – Ian Tomlinson – have we done this yet?
  • MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    So being beaten up a couple of times and then pushed to the ground couldn’t increase your chances of having a heart attack? I think you need to pay more attention in Biology.

    falkirk_mark
    Free Member

    So the fact that he possibly had a heart condition makes it okay in what way. Picture if you will your 82 year old granny being robbed in her house and dying from a heart attack ,lets just let the scrote got caught the old granny would have snuffed it in the next couple of years anyway so no big deal eh? Couple of hours community service should do it.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    point is (again and again and again) that however it seems, until the assault and the heart attack / death are proved to be either linked or unlinked, it is speculation. Calling the policeman that pushed him over a killer serves no purpose at this point; he is an assailant and has a case to answer for that which may lead to further charges in due course. But he is as yet untried, unconvicted therefore *not* a killer – yet.

    To persist in considering him convicted already detracts from the point for now, that the people involved have to be brought to account. no more and no less.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    Filthy
    Free Member

    Just been on the news, the officer has been suspended, apologies if someones already posted this.

    juan
    Free Member

    No, if directed by the police to do something, you do it.

    Nice wait until some policemen ask you ot knee on the ground to pull your trousers down and decided to shove some hubcaps in your crack.

    I am sure you’ll have great pleasure to do it then.

    grizzlygus
    Free Member

    surfer – Member

    “still I guess you can’t expect too much from a government that launches illegal wars based on lies.”

    At last the crux of your argument. “where you stand depends on where you sit” as the quote goes.

    Cor blimey, I’ve been busted ! …….. It’s a fair cop guv, I done it all 😯

    You’re a right little detective aren’t you surfer ? Despite my best efforts you’ve exposed me as an anti-war leftie 🙁

    However, your “where you stand depends on where you sit” quote, gets somewhat challenged by the fact that right at the start of this thread I posted, quote :

    “despite this incident, British police are still amongst the very best in the world.”

    It kinda fux up your little theory, doesn’t it Sherlock ?

    Because you see surfer, unlike Daily Mail reading coppers, I have the ability to think for myself and I don’t base ‘where I stand’ on irrational prejudices.

    I didn’t go to the G20 demo for several reasons, including the fact that a ‘pick-your-own-cause’ demo really didn’t appeal to me. I believe that any demo should have a clear and focused message – half a dozen people all saying different things are unlikely to make their point heard, however honourable their cause.

    Neither did it appeal to me to protest for the sake of protesting, a futile and pointless exercise which I leave to the ‘transient’ revolutionaries of the SWP, as they take their ‘gap year’ from being middle-class before abandoning the revolution to move onto their well paid professional careers.

    However all that has changed now. After last week’s incident in which the police went on the rampage, intimidated, threaten, and committing acts of gratuitous violence in an attempt to stop people from exercising their lawful rights, I fully intend to go to all similar future protests, if only to protest for the sake of protesting.

    Because you see what is clearly at stake now, ‘is the right to protest’. And I’ll be fukked if I’m going to stay at home and watch TV whilst rights which have been fought for, at great cost and sacrifice, are being slowly eroded away.

    I know that because of police brutality at the G20 demo many people will not go to any further demos, but I’ll be there. And if I so wish, I will walk past coppers with my hands in my pocket, I won’t show them ‘respect’ and take them out, I don’t live in a police state. The police can expect exactly the same level of respect which they show me, but no more.

    And I have to say that I find the ‘Ian Tomlinson was taking the p1ss’ defence used by some coppers on this forum quite frankly nauseating. That’s the sort of defence which a thug uses to justify violently attacking a member of the public : “he was taking the p1ss, he wasn’t showing me respect, blah, blah

    .

    BTW surfer, this time last year I was on this forum defending the police’s ‘in line with inflation’ pay claim and condemning the government for expecting the police to take a cut in their living standards. Even though the average copper earns more than me and as someone who works in construction, I haven’t had a pay rise since EU enlargement. I didn’t support the government’s attempts to blame inflation on public service workers.

    aracer
    Free Member

    British police are still amongst the very best in the world.

    Even though they read the DM and can’t think for themselves? 😉

    grizzlygus
    Free Member

    Yeah, even though. Accountability and the British tradition of ‘Softly Softly’ policing has ensured that.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    hainey – Member

    Press – the scurge of the earth.

    Because, of course, the Press don’t ever actually produce pics or stories of stuff that reveals the truth about a situation, helps change people’s opinions, or highlights attrocities/situations we should all be aware of…

    I apologise if anyone finds any of these images too much. I don’t mean to offend anyone.

    konabunny
    Free Member

    Frankly – I agree with your point, but showing the photos is a bit much IMO.

    “So the fact that he possibly had a heart condition makes it okay in what way. Picture if you will your 82 year old granny being robbed in her house and dying from a heart attack ,lets just let the scrote got caught the old granny would have snuffed it in the next couple of years anyway so no big deal eh? Couple of hours community service should do it.”

    Well, precisely – or maybe “well, there was no need for her to have been so difficult, she could have just handed over her pension book, she was obviously playing the fool, besides, it’s not so important to look at this one death, what’s done is done, we should focus on the situation as a whole, and the 99% of scrotes that don’t kill grannies…”

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    It is a sad reflection on the UK today where the media chasing headlines and ratings dictate the feelings and mood of society, esepcially with supposed intelligent people.

    It happened with the Gulf/Iraq war, the media started pro Bush/Blair and then over time anti Bush/Blair…. war doesnt grab headlines after a period of time. Views on here on the whole reflected the media view.

    In this case the media were just waiting for one of two things 1.Either for London to have a fantastic large riot (great for headlines but didnt happen) 2. Police to do some thing wrong (because afterall they still want to get the big headline)

    Luckily for the media they got their story.

    Now if it had been me walking down that street on the way home from work (nice work outfit by the way, or had he just been at work at the local chav pub all day?) I would 1. avoid a street full of riot Police and noisey protestors, and 2. If I had to go down the street I wouldn’t when asked to move on by the Police put my hands in my pockets, turn my back to the Police and walk slowly in a defiant manner. Perhaps this is the problem though, I was brought up to respect the Police and do as they ask (within reason, and being asked to move on IS reasonable)

    Who was right and who was wrong, well I dont know, because I wasnt there to witness it, and didnt see what led up to the situation and what was said between the Police and Mr Tomlinson. Perhaps the Police used more force than necessary, but if Mr Tomlinson did as he was asked then he would never have received a batton to the back of the legs (which is an approved Police technique when people refuse to comply)

    The guy then got up and walked away….lesson learned I’d say. The fact that he died minutes later is unfortunate but could be completely unrelated. I dont know, because I dont know the facts, just like everyone else on here.

    The only question is were the Police right to use a batton on him to control him. Personally from the limited info and video I have seen, yes they were he didnt do as asked.

    miketually
    Free Member

    nice work outfit by the way, or had he just been at work at the local chav pub all day?

    Wow, way to be judgemental.

    RevWill
    Free Member

    FunkyDunc, are you saying the Police have a right to hit you if you don’t do what they say? When did that happen?

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Maybe as a law abiding member of the public he was using the highway and Constable Savage didn’t want him there. Interesting that the “soaraway sun” is now rubbishing the victim in the same manner that they did with the victims at Hillsborough.
    Strangely all the CCTV cameras were off, or the footage has been “creatively archived” (© The Register) and the plod are now coming forward now that they have their story straight.
    I may turn up at the next one with a streaming videocam to record everything and with storage away from the camera my footage will be safe.

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    RevWill,

    As I implied its all in context. If I was just walking down an quiet empty street, and a Police man asked me to move on, and if I questioned why, he wacked me in the back of the legs then yes of course thats unreasonable.

    If you walk in to an area with lots of riot Police asking people to move on, and in an ambivalent, defient manner turn your back to them put your hands in your pockets and walk slowly you are not doing everything you can to comply with their request are you?

    miketually
    Free Member

    If you walk in to an area with lots of riot Police asking people to move on, and in an ambivalent, defient manner turn your back to them put your hands in your pockets and walk slowly you are not doing everything you can to comply with their request are you?

    He was possibly concussed, on account of being beaten with batons just five minutes earlier, while walking down another street. As far as the police knew at the time, he could have been mentally ill, on medication, or anything.

    miketually
    Free Member

    In fact, he may have been attacked twice by police before the filmed attack:

    Ms Branthwaite told this newspaper how she witnessed two initial attacks further up the street as Scotland Yard’s riot police swarmed the area.

    “The dog handlers [believed to be City of London Police] were just starting to sweep the street and form a police line when Ian Tomlinson arrived. I saw a riot police officer charge him from behind and propel himself forward with his body weight,” she said.

    “Mr Tomlinson was on the ground and I saw him [the policeman] stand over him with a baton, hitting him twice. He was completely taken by surprise. He didn’t know what hit him.”

    She added that he tried to get to his feet. “His natural instinct was to get up to run. The same riot police officer then grabbed him and ran with him for two strides and threw him forward.” She then lost sight of Mr Tomlinson as she was hauled away by police. She was adamant that the filmed attack occurred seconds after the ones she witnessed. “He was not engaging with them [the police]. He was not taunting them. He was not shouting. It was completely unprovoked.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-evidence-of-police-attacks-on-g20-victim-1666116.html

    grumm
    Free Member

    and in an ambivalent, defient manner turn your back to them put your hands in your pockets and walk slowly

    ‘I didn’t like the way he was walking away from me, so I attacked him’ – are you actually serious? Even if the police felt the need to move him, is a violent shove really the best way to do it?

    I suppose you watched the video from the climate camp posted above, and can tell me how violently striking people with the edge of a shield is a legitimate crowd control technique against non-violent protestors?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I haven’t read the whole thread but I can’t believe anyone would think we live in a police state. You really REALLY need to read some history. If you think our liberties are being taken away by the police go and talk to someone that used to live in say East Germany, or maybe a North Korean. Or any number of other places.

    grumm
    Free Member

    I don’t think we live in a police state but that doesn’t mean we should be complacent – ‘oh its ok, its nowhere near as bad as North Korea’.

    grizzlygus
    Free Member

    Thank you for your post FunkyDunc, it really is a little gem. No really, I can’t think of anything illustrating better how a moronic reactionary mind works. I particularly liked “esepcially with supposed intelligent people” lol

    And thank you for pointing out that the assault victim was a member of the smelly ‘lower-classes’ the few punters on here who have made vague attempts to justify the assault, appear to have missed this vital piece of evidence. Or at least haven’t been brave enough to point it out.

    Your comments on the media are interesting. If only because they are complete bollox. The media didn’t start pro Bush/Blair and then over time become anti Bush/Blair over Iraq. Much of the media was anti Bush/Blair from the start, including papers such as the Mirror and the Guardian. Even the Times made it clear that although they were under rare editorial pressure from their proprietor, they were unhappy and gave plenty of space to dissenting opinions.

    What did happen however was, that as it became clear that claims of WMDs were complete nonsense, the Iraqis weren’t welcoming us with open arms, the whole operation was badly executed and Iraq descended into chaos with hospitals and universities being ransacked and looted, when all that became clear, more and more people began to question the validity of going to war.

    In the case of the G20 protests the media might well have started off being pro-police, no great surprise there. However, when evidence started emerging of very dubious police tactics, and clear evidence of police brutality, questions began to be asked about the policing operations. No great surprise there either.

    The media hasn’t “created” this story, a man dying minutes after being attacked by the police IS a news story. Unless of course you live in a Police State, in which case it wouldn’t be a story at all.

    BTW FunkyDunc, are you accusing the media of manipulating public opinion, or chasing public opinion ? I’m not sure whether you can really have it both ways.

    And although you claim “Luckily for the media they got their story” you don’t appear to have actually bothered paying much attention to the story. Why do you ask “had he just been at work at the local chav pub all day?” when everyone knows that Ian Tomlinson was a newspaper seller ?

    Anyway thanks again for your post FunkyDunc, if nothing else it has made me realise the futility of waiting for an intelligent person to come up with a half sensible justification of the police assault on Ian Tomlinson .

    And good for you for being brought up to remove your hands from your pockets as an act of respect when walking past a police officer. Unfortunately I was brought up to believe that the police are there to serve me, and not to actually fear them. So until there is a coup d’etat and a military junta is installed, I will continue to have a very relaxed attitude towards the police and the army.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Strangely all the CCTV cameras were off,

    Really? You’d think that this was just the sort of situation where CCTV would be very useful, in being able to monitor what was going on. Or has the footage just been ‘disappeared’, as seems to happen with alarming regularity, whenever police actions are called into question?

    G
    Free Member

    Because, of course, the Press don’t ever actually produce pics or stories of stuff that reveals the truth about a situation, helps change people’s opinions, or highlights attrocities/situations we should all be aware of…

    Interstingly the one from Tianneman square is totally misleading. What actually happend is that 4 main battle tanks were stopped by one drunk guy, not a protestor, and backed up and tried to drive around him, when they failed becuase he kept getting in their way they turned and left. It was not until the government brought hard core troops in from another region that things turned nasty. This image has constantly been shown as an image of oppression in the Western media, but in fact is quite the reverse. If you watch the entire sequence from which this is cut you will see it quite plainly.
    Subsequently, the troops stationed there, (their equivalent of the Guards regiments in London), have been completely replaced by a new and much toguher bunch who will not stand for much crap at all.

    konabunny
    Free Member

    “Perhaps the Police used more force than necessary…”

    Yes, that’s exactly the fricking point, glad you’ve finally thought your way around to it. If you use excessive force, that’s an assault – and if someone dies as a result of that assault, that’s manslaughter.

    Smacking someone with a baton or shoving people to the ground isn’t a legal response to non-compliance with a legal request, no matter how much madey-uppy “police-approved manouver” tosh you come out with.

    “The guy then got up and walked away….lesson learned I’d say. The fact that he died minutes later is unfortunate but could be completely unrelated”

    Yeah, OK – you’re right. It could be a complete coincidence that out of the four decades of his life, the moment that he chose to **** off and have a heart attack was ten minutes after being assaulted by a cop! Let me ask you a question – if you were in the dock for manslaughter, and whether you’d be found guilty or not depended on the jury believing that the heart attack was just a coincidence – how confident would you feel?

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Interstingly the one from Tianneman square is totally misleading.

    Whatever, G-Man. My point was, that those images helped highlight what was going on in China, and brought the issues to the World’s attention. Until then, China had been largely ignored.

    Your version of events seems to conflict with just about every other, I’ve read or seen. I’d be interested in learning how you know what you claim.

    Speshly as the man was never seen again…

    G
    Free Member

    Whatever, G-Man

    Actually it didn’t, it displayed an extremely biast view at a time when delicate negotaitons regarding the handover of Hong Kong were going on and succeeded in creating an intransigence in the Chinese that didn’t exist previously.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Eh? The Chinese authorities killed hundreds of people, protesting for democracy. These events were brought to us by a Press who’s job it is, to inform and enlighten.

    I fail to see how footage showing defiance of oppressive military action, or accounts of extreme brutality by the Chinese authorities, on their own people, is an anyway ‘biased’!

    My point is, that the Press have an extremely important and valuable job to do, and, like the police, they mainly do it extremely well.

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    G, could you suggest any sources that assert the view that this was just some random drunk, and that at the time in question things had yet to turn ‘nasty’, as it seems to be counter to the version of events that I remember.

    G
    Free Member

    Just track down and watch the whole sequence. This was in fact part of the third or fourth half hearted attempt by the local militia to move the protest on. In earlier efforts some of the soldiers had “fratanised” with the protestors and refused to obey orders. It was subsequent to this and after numerous attempts to bring about a peaceful conclusion that the Government brought in the equivalent of the paras and shockingly they then did what shock troops do. Its all a matter of record. To get your head around it try to visualise a scenario where our Government would allow the Mall to be occupied by protestors for weeks, without doing anything about it. Thats pretty much what actually happened.

    For the record, at the time I was engaged in attempts to start a factory out there, and was amongst the first Western businessmen to try to do business there in that way. The aftershocks knocked us back years, and got even worse when that dick Chris Patton became governor of Hong Kong and started wattling on about democracy.

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    Just track down and watch the whole sequence. This was in fact part of the third or fourth half hearted attempt by the local militia to move the protest on.

    Yes i’ve seen the video, and i remember watching it at the time.
    By the time the footage was taken by most estimates over 2000 people had been killed, so i’m a bit confused by your assertion that it was a misrepresnation of events. Could you explain what you feel was misrepresented? Do you feel not covering the slaughter would have been better for business?

    G
    Free Member

    LOL : By what token do you think stopping, backing up and trying to drive around the guy is oppressive, oppressive is not stopping and running the fecker down. Thats my point.

    At that time, the protest had gone on from April to June. The shootings were in response to attacks on the soldiers sent to clear the square, and after numerous warnings were given. I’m not in any way defending shooting civilians, just making the point that the pictures shown here and the reality of those pictures were different.

    The whole issue was based on the pace of change at the time, and there were strongly differing opinions in government on that subject. Some thought the way forward was to democratise immediately, however the ruling group at the time preferred what they referred to as the blossoming lotus, i.e. gradual structured change. The reason being that they had seen exactly what had gone on in Russia at the time, and were deeply concerned about anarchy. They actually tolerated the demonstration for about 10 or 12 weeks before finally losing patience. Does that sound oppresive to you? In fact they had tried very hard to avoid violence. Furthermore, given the fact that it is a totaliterian state, do you honestly believe that they would have allowed Western journalists to be in the vicinity had they intended there to be violence on the scale that there was? At that time all foriegners had to register their presence with the Police, and they knew exactly where you were at all times. Clearly they deliberately set themselves up for what happened right?

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    LOL : By what token do you think stopping, backing up and trying to drive around the guy is oppressive, oppressive is not stopping and running the fecker down. Thats my point.

    Everyone knows the man wasn’t run-over. It also showed the humanity of an individual tank commander despite the oppression.

    They actually tolerated the demonstration for about 10 or 12 weeks before finally losing patience. Does that sound oppresive to you?

    I’m lost for words. If that’s how your mind works it seems pointless engaging in any further conversation.

    rightplacerighttime
    Free Member

    This is silly – G, can you tell us the whereabouts of that protestor now?

    konabunny
    Free Member

    I think it’s disgraceful that G is trying to make analogies that put the fine, upstanding British Bobby in the same category as a shock troop of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army that would brutally attack unarmed civilians for engaging in their right to protest and association.

    Oh, wait, hold on…

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    For the record, at the time I was engaged in attempts to start a factory out there, and was amongst the first Western businessmen to try to do business there in that way. The aftershocks knocked us back years, and got even worse when that dick Chris Patton became governor of Hong Kong and started wattling on about democracy.

    Unbelievable.

    Seems that G was more concerned about his own dissatisfaction with not being able to make money, than the Human Rights of an entire nation.

    And G, you had the gall to try and criticise me, for my opinions?

    To me, people matter more than money.

    surfer
    Free Member

    Because you see surfer, unlike Daily Mail reading coppers, I have the ability to think for myself and I don’t base ‘where I stand’ on irrational prejudices.

    So its not an irrational prejudice to assume Police officers all read the Daily Mail? Is it only me that can see the irony in this comment?

    The “ability to think for yourself” indeed!

    My point was not so much about what happened as we probably share similar opinions. It was more to do with your baseless assertions at the heart of it.

    surfer
    Free Member

    However all that has changed now. After last week’s incident in which the police went on the rampage, intimidated, threaten, and committing acts of gratuitous violence in an attempt to stop people from exercising their lawful rights, I fully intend to go to all similar future protests, if only to protest for the sake of protesting.

    Good for you. This type of police brutality has been widespread in protests that I have attended, seen reliable footage of or been advised by trustworthy friends who have been on the spot, for years. These recent events may have pricked your conscience and when you attend these protests in future maybe you will come back with a more balanced argument than the police are all “Daily Mail readers”

    grizzlygus
    Free Member

    surfer – Member
    Is it only me that can see the irony in this comment?

    Quite possibly yes.

    Because you see surfer, other punters might have read my post properly. Without the anger and the adrenaline pumping through their veins, they might have not have misjudged my intentions and concluded a false premise that I had claimed all coppers are Daily Mail readers.

    Don’t consider a career in ‘detective work’ surfer, you really are rubbish. Just look at the quote which you yourself took from my post, where do you see the word “all” ? A distinct lack of ‘evidence’ I’m sure you’ll agree.

    I am fully aware that not all coppers are Daily Mail readers. In fact my two very close mates who have recently retired from the Met, were both Guardian readers.

    And I doubt very much indeed that my nephew who has recently joined the Met is a Daily Mail reader, after all it was his father my much older brother, who first introduced me to the Guardian.

    I am also fully aware that most coppers aren’t thugs. However, I think that it would be fair to say that those who are, and also those who consider that people who are concerned about Climate Change are “scum”, typically get their opinions from the Sun and Daily Mail.

    Perhaps surfer if you looked at things with a cool head, you wouldn’t jump to wrong conclusions.

    Alb
    Free Member

    In my short life, all the dealings (no, I’m not a crim) I’ve had with the police have lead me to believe that coppers are good for **** all.

    Coppers are just the kids at school that were either:

    a) bullied
    b) grasses to the teachers
    c) crap with girls

    or

    d) all of the above

    G
    Free Member

    RudeBoy – Member
    Unbelievable.

    Seems that G was more concerned about his own dissatisfaction with not being able to make money, than the Human Rights of an entire nation.

    And G, you had the gall to try and criticise me, for my opinions?

    To me, people matter more than money.

    Its difficult for me to understand what your point is there Rude boy, given that you know sweet FA about me or my motivations. However, its a different issue for a different thread at another time, only marginally relevant to this one. The point I was making is that pictorial evidence is not always what it seems. Given your stance on “conspiracy theories” I would have thought you might have been able to think outside the box and actually analyise the evidence before you own eyes and realise that there is more than one way to interprete what you see. As I said before I am not seeking to justify the Chinese governments actions, merely to point out that there is a possiblity, nay even a strong liklihood that Western journalists may have misrepresented what they saw to suit a story that they had in mind without necessarily stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. Happy to debate it with you, but not here, as that would be hijacking someone elses thread.

    Incidentally, in terms of your criticism of my role at the time, what is freedom to you? To me it starts with things like freedom from hunger. At the time China was amongst one of the poorest nations on earth, now it is very close to being a first world economy, and I’m here to tell you that the average Chinese citizen is vastly better off now in every sense than they were then. Why? Because of the opening up of their political system and economic development. Again, there is good and there is bad as in all things, but it certainly isn’t as black and white as you seem to like to paint it.

    Regarding the last comment regarding democracy. I used to think the same way, until a Hong Kong based friend of mine nailed me with this simple line. “if democracy is so important to you people now, how come it hasn’t been for the last 197 years?” thats was 3 years before the handback. At that time I was unaware that there had never ever been a democratic election in Hong Kong. So pick the pips out of that before you start wattling on about how naughty the Chinese are, at a time where there is more freedom and democracy in that country than at any time in the last 5000 years or so!

Viewing 40 posts - 241 through 280 (of 290 total)

The topic ‘G20 Protest death – Ian Tomlinson – have we done this yet?’ is closed to new replies.