Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
  • Fun vs uphills balance?
  • jayx2a
    Free Member

    So my bike is sold and off to its new home on Saturday so the shopping begins!

    When looking at bikes (hard tails) what factors effect the climbing ability the most?

    The more slack the worse the climb? I was set on a Crush Pro but might regret it as I do a fair amount of ups on my rides.

    I’m well used to 1×11 on the full squish so that’s not really a factor to me. I just don’t want to end up with a bike that I don’t enjoy as I have been there and it’s something I want to avoid.

    I know I meet to test ride bikes, but you don’t really get to try them in the scenario you would want to be in.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Depends where you ride and how confident you are? A well ridden XC bike will beat a minced LTHT down the hill.

    But for climbing the biggest effect is the seatube angle, if it’s steep it keeps your weight forward which keeps the front end down. Beyond that you’re fine up until the point the front wheel/bars turning circle won’t get round the trees anymore!

    molgrips
    Free Member

    What sort of climbing do you do? Techie or just smooth slogs?

    You can often find demo bikes to take on actual bike rides. Some charge, some don’t. I’ve done this before.

    Slack HA doesn’t necessarily impact climbing that much, but slack SA seems to in my experience, which is somewhat limited on modern bikes. What do the reviews say about the Crush Pro?

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    jayx2a
    Free Member

    Hills mainly smooth but sometimes rocky/chalky. Do a fair bit of seated climbing, but it’s worth it for the downs and the twisty stuff!

    Pro review is here

    Orange Crush S review

    Did pop in to my LBS today but they only mainly deal with Saracen so recommended the 29er Zenith, but not sure on the spec.

    https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Saracen-Zenith-Trail-29er-Mountain-Bike-2018-Hardtail-MTB_113575.htm

    hols2
    Free Member

    IME, getting the saddle forward enough to get over the pedals (plus the saddle high enough – many casual riders seem to have the saddle too low for climbing). After that, tyres and tyre pressure – these need to be suitable for the terrain, not the “skinnier and harder the better” nonsense.

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    “skinnier and harder the better”

    Is that really still a thing?
    Even XC riders ride low pressures these days.

    rocketman
    Free Member

    When looking at bikes (hard tails) what factors effect the climbing ability the most?

    You’re looking at the polar opposite of a DH bike. Anything that gets your weight forward and your legs pushing backwards so no slack seat angles. Also balance plays a big part it’s surprising how much effort is required to stop the thing toppling over when you’re going slower.

    You can reproduce some of the characteristics by having a dropper that extends too much for normal riding but is perfect for steep climbs. Travel adjust forks can steepen the head angle. Wide tyres and bars help with the balance.

    Weight is not as important as drag and frictional losses which become important at lower speeds. Spin the wheels, turn the cranks they need to turn effortlessly. Absolutely no shing-shing from the brakes.

    And spend a lot of time hill-hunting.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    You can reproduce some of the characteristics by having a dropper that extends too much for normal riding

    I’ve heard that mentioned a few times as a benefit of droppers, but I’m not convinced, it feels faster, but I think that’s just because you ankles are extended and your weight is on your ass not the pedals so your legs are doing less work pushing you up the hill so you’re actually going slower and taking it easier without realising.

    Wide tyres and bars help with the balance.

    As a fat bike rider I can confirm wide tyres do nothing to help with balance, it’s just not how bikes work. If anything my road bike is easier to ride no handed.

    Wide bars mimic the older trend for long stems in pulling your weight forward a bit which offsets the shorter stems on modern bikes helping to keep some weight up over the front wheel. Even XC bikes these days are coming with 90mm stems, 720mm bars and 69deg HA’s longer reaches and steeper SA’s.

    But it does depend on the type of climbing, CX bikes (and road bikes) haven’t changed from their comparatively slack seat angles and would still kick arse up a fire road because the modern trends are to help with technical climbing, not fire roads.

    Travel adjust forks can steepen the head angle.

    Thankfully travel adjust has mostly died a death these days, it didn’t work except to effectively stiffen the forks. It just made the front end feel tucked under, the bottom bracket dropped, and if you already had a good seat angle it got too steep. The better systems just dropped a fraction of the travel (150 to 100mm or 100 to 80) which just compensated for the rearwards weight shift of climbing and kept them effectively at their normal sag point. Now most systems just stiffen the suspension front and rear to keep the geometry stable.

    And spend a lot of time hill-hunting.

    That I agree with, ride up grades not upgrades.

    You can massively overthink these things, the limiting factor both up and downhill is always going to be the rider, just watch the top guys riding technical trails on XC bikes, or downhill/enduro riders sprinting 6-7-8″ travel bikes up inclines.

    cuda17
    Free Member

    best bet is to take one for a test ride!!

    its all about the seat angle in my minisule experience but even then you could always slap a 46 tooth cassette on the back for the climbs i guess!?

    jayx2a
    Free Member

    The Crush has a seat angle of 73.3°

    I have no clue to what is classed as normal/slack these days!

    cuda17
    Free Member

    i read somewhere that a seattube angle “in the low 70’s” is ideal!!

    wl
    Free Member

    My P7 climbs fine with similar numbers to a Crush. Great fun coming down or on the flat. Remember that sliding the seat forward on its rails has the same effect as steeping a seat angle – just make sure there’s room for adjustments when you pick your bike’s size.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    i read somewhere that a seattube angle “in the low 70’s” is ideal!!

    Well seeing as no one makes one outside the 70-75 range that’s probably true, but 71 will potentially climb horribly. Road frames are traditionally 73.5 with about 20mm of layback seatpost. Modern mountain bikes are around the same or sometimes steeper, but have an inline seatpost (as layback droppers are rare). So 73.3 on the crush will feel steeper (with an appropriate seatpost) than an older frame with an layback seatpost. BUT bear in mind this is all tied into toptube length and reach. Sticking an inline post on an old frame just moves you closer to the bars so you end up sitting upright which doesn’t actually help.

    hols2
    Free Member

    Sticking an inline post on an old frame just moves you closer to the bars so you end up sitting upright which doesn’t actually help.

    Inline posts aren’t anything new.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    BUT bear in mind this is all tied into toptube length and reach. Sticking an inline post on an old frame just moves you closer to the bars so you end up sitting upright which doesn’t actually help.

    Yes, but couple that inline post with a wider bar and you can effectively shuffle the riders weight further forwards.

    I’m still not sure seat tube angle on the frame is as Critical as some would have you believe, it’s more important that you can get the seat itself in the position you need.
    Saddles have got a fair bit of fore/aft adjustment, in addition to the option of lay back/inline posts, so you should be able to put the seat where you need it whether or not your frame has a 71 or 75 degree seat angle… Right?

    I’m just about to start assembling a different bike, my old one had a 74deg SA, the new one is listed as 72.5, but it has a longer top tube and I’m fitting a 20mm longer fork than standard and a -2deg angleset so God only knows what the actual HA/SA will be…

    Instead of worrying too much about the frame angles, before I took my old bike apart I measured the crap out of the contact points, axle positions and everything relative to one another (I’ll be using most of the same parts again too). the idea is I will be able to reproduce a similar position to the previous bike and then go from there to refine the adjustments…

    But yeah, if you do have a bike setup that you find climbs well, measure it as much as you can so that you have a chance of reproducing that position on other bikes…

    nedrapier
    Full Member

    As a fat bike rider I can confirm wide tyres do nothing to help with balance, it’s just not how bikes work. If anything my road bike is easier to ride no handed.

    we might be talking about different types of balance. I’ve found on really steep, techy climbs, the fatbike gives me a little bit more predictability, time and mental comfort on those minitrackstand-and-go-again type moves.

    Say on a “normal bike” on a climb with 10 or 20 of those moves, you might get through most, but one’s going to catch you out and you’ll end up walking because it’s too steep to get going again. Reduce your chances of dabbing by 3 on each one and you’re much more likely to get through the lot.

    Another way that the fat tires help is being able to bounce the front off and up/over to another line, the deformation and rebound means you can redirect your momentum in a way you can’t with normal(ler) tyres or suspension. again, talking steep tech, trialsy end of things.

    nedrapier
    Full Member

    I don’t get the Jones. Bought a s/h spaceframe recently and the slack seat angle, weight back, upright position seems to be everthing you wouldn ‘t wan to climb well. Not especially light either.

    However. It does climb well! Great balance, steep switchbacks seem very easy and relaxed. Not slow on the long grinds either – guessing that’s as much to do with tyres as anything else.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    It’s difficult to say what to look out for definitely. You say you want to be ok uphill but fun downhill so I’d be looking at something a bit slack though with about 130mm/140mm forks.

    The orange looks ok, as do the Bird TR/AM hardtails.

    Stanton seem very popular with a few of the lads who ride in bristol – either the slackline or the switchback. Cotic seem to have a good following too. Can’t say I’ve ridden any of the above though personally – FS all the way for me – I love my Aeris 145 – goes uphill fine but is storming back down hill.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Yes, but couple that inline post with a wider bar and you can effectively shuffle the riders weight further forwards.

    I’m still not sure seat tube angle on the frame is as Critical as some would have you believe, it’s more important that you can get the seat itself in the position you need.
    Saddles have got a fair bit of fore/aft adjustment, in addition to the option of lay back/inline posts, so you should be able to put the seat where you need it whether or not your frame has a 71 or 75 degree seat angle… Right?

    I can see your point, but dropper posts don’t particularly like the extreme of saddle adjustment, my reverb jamms if you put the saddle right back. FWIW 10mm of adjustment is ~1deg.

    I’ve always found messing around with bikes geometry/components is a loosing battle, the designer made a bike for type of riding with certain components, e.g. an XC bike with 110mm stem, 73deg SA and 550mm reach, you can’t just update that with a 90mm stem or push the saddle forwards because the reach won’t have changed and the HA will feel steep and nervous as that’s not changed either.

    So a new XC bike with a slightly slacker HA and longer reach with 74deg SA and 90mm stem handles better than the original bike, but it’s not something you can necessarily achieve incrementally, the whole geometry has to shift.

    At the opposite extreme you have Jones, which have completely different geometries to anything else out there, but still work as the whole lot was designed as a package so the seat angle works with the reach, the stem length, the fork rake, the head angle, the wheel size to reach a different conclusion.

    we might be talking about different types of balance. I’ve found on really steep, techy climbs, the fatbike gives me a little bit more predictability, time and mental comfort on those minitrackstand-and-go-again type moves.

    I think that’s as much momentum as anything, giving you something to push against to regain balance. By the opposite argument, superlight wheels on a road bike are easy to balance because you can move the bike around under you.

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)

The topic ‘Fun vs uphills balance?’ is closed to new replies.