Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 132 total)
  • Full-on anti theft tactics from Preston police
  • Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kf4kyQabwQ[/video]

    bjj.andy.w
    Free Member

    I’m training in Preston tonight and I’m going on my bike. If my next post is at 11pm it means I’ve had to walk home because my bikes been confiscated.

    hora
    Free Member

    there is a manchester based pinkbike seller thats aroused my suspicion. always sells high end mint kit. i may be totally wrong but fox forks sale on a yeti 575 bike split. credible profile rightup but its just a hunch

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    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    When they talked about doing this is edinburgh one of the criteria for suspecting someone was that they had no helmet.

    See! Another good reason to wear one. TJ. I never thought I’d say it, but you’ve finally got me convinced.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Onus must be on the police to prove wrongdoing, it’s not up to members of the public to prove they’re lawabiding. Hands up everyone who can prove ownership of their bikes? I only bought one of mine new, and that was in 1991.

    And there’s plenty of times an owner could look suspicious… At the weekend I was working on the downhill bike, took it out for a testride wearing my garage clothes- black combat trousers, black hoodie. No cycling kit, no helmet, riding a totally inappropriate bike along the river path. Is this your bike sir? Yes. Can you prove it? No.

    crashtestmonkey
    Free Member

    oh FFS. People get bikes nicked and complain of lack of interest by the police. A police force tries a proactive response to cycle crime and cyclists cry foul, abuse of human rights/civil liberty etc etc.

    Maybe the reason this is being publicised is so that 1) lawful cyclists do make some effort to carry something but more significantly 2) thieving scumbags think twice about nicking bikes for fear of being caught on them. Whenever we have a proactive plain clothes anti-crime operation we publicise its launch (without saying how long it lasts). It has a deterrent effect as the burglars/thieves/robbers tend to stay indoors as they don’t know where we are or when, and the drop in crime figures lasts for a couple of weeks after the end of the operation as the villains are still cautious. If we include search warrants it has an effect on the handlers as they worry it might be their door next.

    Police don’t have to prove something is nicked, they have to have reasonable grounds to suspect in order to seize it. And there are all sorts of ways of satifying ourselves that a bike is legit; this week I stopped a stereotypical hoody out on a bike in an area that had suffered burglaries. He had the key to the lock wrapped around the frame, and could describe the bike without looking at it. I can list every part on my custom builds and I’m sure you can too, Northwind et al. But don’t let that stop the moaning and hand-wringing. One of my PC’s is currently posing as a buyer to recover a bike on gumtree and arrest the seller. I’ll tell him not to bother 🙄

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Hands up everyone who can prove ownership of their bikes? I only bought one of mine new, and that was in 1991.

    :waves hands: 😆

    So if you had the misfortune to suffer a theft, then saw the stolen bike in a local 2nd hand shop etc, how would you go about proving it was yours ?

    Northwind
    Full Member

    crashtestmonkey – Member

    One of my PC’s is currently posing as a buyer to recover a bike on gumtree and arrest the seller. I’ll tell him not to bother

    Is it a stolen bike, or does it just look like it might possibly be stolen?

    hilldodger – Member

    So if you had the misfortune to suffer a theft, then saw the stolen bike in a local 2nd hand shop etc, how would you go about proving it was yours ?

    I couldn’t. I’ve got the frame numbers but that proves nothing. I know all the parts, but that proves nothing either. Some of them, I could provide ebay or classifieds ads for the parts, but that wouldn’t be proof either.

    And if the response is going to be “Oh, but the Police will exercise reason and act appropriately in all cases”- I don’t believe in infallible humans.

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Northwind – Member

    It’s unlikely I could tbh. I’ve got the frame numbers but that proves nothing. How would you?

    Thanks to local cycling group cooperating with police, bikes are security marked and registered to me as owner 😀

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    So if you had the misfortune to suffer a theft, then saw the stolen bike in a local 2nd hand shop etc, how would you go about proving it was yours ?

    I’d just go in and take it. Bring some big mates with me if necessary.

    I certainly woon’t be wasting police resources and taxpayers’ money by involving Plod.

    oh FFS. People get bikes nicked and complain of lack of interest by the police. A police force tries a proactive response to cycle crime and cyclists cry foul, abuse of human rights/civil liberty etc etc.

    Human Rights and Civil Liberties are far more important than flipping bicycles (and yes I have had bikes stolen from me). something your lot might want to think about next time yer out bashing students or killing electricians/newspaper sellers on their way home, etc… 😉

    Oh, did I just lump all coppers in together? Assume they’re all bad because of the actions of a tiny minority? How naughty of me….

    Northwind
    Full Member

    hilldodger – Member

    Thanks to local cycling group cooperating with police, bikes are security marked and registered to me as owner

    And how did you prove ownership for the registration? This proves the bike is registered to you; in most cases it doesn’t prove ownership. And have you ever sold a frame or part that was already security marked? Ever bought a used part and wondered if it might be marked?

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Northwind – Member

    And how did you prove ownership for the registration? Receipts plus proof of address and personal ID

    And have you ever sold a frame or part that was already security marked?

    I can transfer reg

    Ever bought a used part

    No

    Northwind
    Full Member

    hilldodger – Member
    No

    Nice for you then, no problem. There’s only about 3 new parts on my Hemlock, I couldn’t prove purchase of about 9/10ths of it, Got an easy solution for that apart from “Buy new parts”?

    crashtestmonkey
    Free Member

    northwind, it has been reported by the loser who has searched the internet for his bike and found what he believes is his, so we have reasonable grounds to suspect it is stolen. What would you have us do?! Phone the seller and ask for the frame number to check it against the victim’s to “prove” it is stolen, then act all surprised when the bike has disappeared when we follow up our enquiries?

    Not sure what your knowledge or experience of the law is but when you say “proves nothing” you are plain wrong in practice. Officers routinely stop people in a variety of situations for numerous reasons. Whether they search, arrest or seize depends on the level of suspicion they have. This suspicion has to be reasonable, and the search based in law, but can include prior knowledge and experience. I know when I’ve stopped someone on a stolen bike they cant give a coherent account of how they came possession of the bike, or have any knowledge of the bike. A couple of months ago I stopped a scruffy bloke who from my experience looked like a drug user. The bike was too big for him and was a good quality bike (Cannondale). He said he’d borrowed it from his mate Bob. No surname. Couldn’t name or describe the bike. I arrested him, discovered it was in fact nicked, reunited the bike with its owner, and he was charged with theft.

    I’m not sure how you think we can or do work if we only take action on absolute categorical proof? In the above example I suppose I would have taken the guys details (no proof they were genuine), noted the frame number, made some enquiries, then tried to get hold of him when I discovered it was stolen and act all surprised that he gave me false details and/or the bike has vanished.

    I assume you’ve never been a victim of crime? Most victims expect us to do (and be legally able to do) more than we are allowed to.

    deluded
    Free Member

    Human Rights and Civil Liberties are far more important than flipping bicycles (and yes I have had bikes stolen from me). something your lot might want to think about next time yer out bashing students or killing electricians/newspaper sellers on their way home, etc…

    Oh, did I just lump all coppers in together? Assume they’re all bad because of the actions of a tiny minority? How naughty of me….

    Fred, I’ve genuinely appreciated many of your posts over the years but this is a bit silly and beyond it … isn’t it? I impute from many of your posts that you don’t like prejudice or the bracketing of people or groups … practice what you preach and grow up some, ah (said nicely and all that 😀 )

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Got an easy solution for that apart from “Buy new parts”?

    Banter aside, I’d hope being able to describe all the parts and answering the question “is this your bike” politely and reasonably would stop you getting busted. (See crashtestmonkey’s post above)

    Northwind
    Full Member

    crashtestmonkey – Member

    northwind, it has been reported by the loser who has searched the internet for his bike and found what he believes is his, so we have reasonable grounds to suspect it is stolen.

    I think I’ve not explained myself well there- I’m obviously totally in favour of you going after bikes that you have specific reasons to believe are stolen. But it’s not the same thing at all. In the one case you know a crime’s been committed, or at least have evidence that this is the case, and a specific allegation; in the other you’re just out looking for suspects without even knowing if there’s a crime to suspect them on.

    I assume you’ve never been a victim of crime?

    With such remarkable assuming prowess, you’re definately the man I’d want deciding- sorry, assuming- what bikes are stolen.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    hilldodger – Member

    Banter aside, I’d hope being able to describe all the parts and answering the question “is this your bike” politely and reasonably would stop you getting busted.

    Have you ever tried to describe your bike to a non-biker? You may as well be speaking a foreign language. Not that the Police spokesman would consider it proof anyway, according to the article.

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Have you ever tried to describe your bike to a non-biker? You may as well be speaking a foreign language.

    True, they tend to not appreciate the finer points of cycle componentry 😉

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    Wunundred! 😀

    This suspicion has to be reasonable, and the search based in law, but can include prior knowledge and experience.

    In other words, if you don’t like the look of them, then you feel you have the right to pull them over?

    Ok, right…

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Elfinsafety – Member
    Wunundred!

    ‘scuse me Sir, can you prove you’re the rightful owner of that wunundred…..

    tthew
    Full Member

    Can I please just point you all in the direction of Immobilise.com where you can register your bikes, with descriptions of all the shonky non-standard parts, frame numbers, pictures etc.

    Also works for computers, phones, TV’s and all manner of expensive stuff that might get nicked.

    tomaso
    Free Member

    I got stopped in 1992 by the Police on a dark night and made to face away from my mountain bike while they asked me some questions – what rear mech has the bike got and a few other questions were asked in order for me to verify that it was indeed my bike and not someone else’s that I’d just lifted from a garden shed.

    GaryBanham
    Free Member

    I’m all for stopping stolen bikes etc however….

    When I go for a quick blast round the street / park on my bike costing near £5k I look like a RIGHT CHAV however I paid for it cash, it’s mine and I’m proud.

    If they want me to prove it they can chase me back to my house where I have all the receipts. Forget them taking it and it coming back scratched dinged or damaged.

    Gary

    gwaelod
    Free Member

    “Singlespeed sir…are you in the gayers?”

    “No officer”

    “Right sunny jim you is nicked”

    Northwind
    Full Member

    tomaso – Member

    I got stopped in 1992 by the Police on a dark night and made to face away from my mountain bike while they asked me some questions – what rear mech has the bike got and a few other questions were asked in order for me to verify that it was indeed my bike and not someone else’s that I’d just lifted from a garden shed.

    Heh, I’m visualising this happening to my brother… “What’s a rear mech?” What sort of bike is this sir? “It might be a Saracan? Or maybe that was my old bike. It’s sort of like a mountain bike only with little tyres so, is it a racer?”. Do you have a receipt for it? “Nah, a mate sold it to me for a tenner then my brother bought loads of bits for it off ebay”.

    Dave’s going to jail!

    robsoctane
    Free Member

    in 1997 I worked in a factory and was riding back and forth on my Trek Y22. One back shift end I decided to go to the pub then home so kept my bike locked to the radiator in the locker room where it always stayed. The next day I got back to work and in the locker room, still attached to the radiator was one carbon frame minus almost everything else…

    police were called and I told them what happened. Told them it was most likely to be someone on night shift. The only thing they did was dust it for finger prints and then ask the night shift if they’d provide finger prints for elimination purposes! No one needed to, so no one did.

    As per the video above from elf: F$£k the Police!

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    so someone nicked your stuff, the police were not allowed by law to fingerprint the suspects and you think the baddies here are the police 😯
    I would go for
    1. the thief
    2. the law makers
    You and the police are innocent victims of 1 & 2

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    I’d just go in and take it. Bring some big mates with me if necessary.

    I’m sure that far fewer miscarriages of justice have been perpetrated by people and their “mates” than by trained, accountable law enforcement officers. 🙄

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    Dave’s going to jail!

    It would be karmic retribution for all those times you’ve had to fix his bike for him. 🙂

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Junkyard – would you really be happy for your fingerprints to be on file merely because one of your colleagues might have commited a theft? I wouldn’t

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_McKie

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    Fascinating case that. And precisely naff all to do with the original topic of the thread. 😉

    bigyinn
    Free Member

    Im licky, there arent too many bikes that fit me, so my “field gate” should obviously be mine!

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Junkyard – would you really be happy for your fingerprints to be on file merely because one of your colleagues might have commited a theft? I wouldn’t

    I never said the law was wrong or I disagreed I simply said it was daft to blame the police for what happened as they did not nick the stuff nor are they responsible for the law that prevented them from taking fingerprints… Do you disagree with that?

    An easy solution would be to fingerprint to find the culprit then bin the rest of the fingerprints.

    Bikerat
    Free Member

    wouldnt the easiest options to be A) lock up all the scummy chavs before the have a chance to steal anything or B) Have Three large dogs(canine gang warfare), a highly secure bike shed, lots of steel and alarms, and firearms/airrifles at hand. Possibly on dodgy legal ground if plan B fully implemented. 😈

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    I’m sure that far fewer miscarriages of justice have been perpetrated by people and their “mates” than by trained, accountable law enforcement officers

    😕

    IME, and that of many others, relying on the police to retrieve a stolen bike for you is a fool’s errand mainly. Simply cos of the red tape, lack of manpower, loads more serious crimes going on etc, not particularly blaming the police here at all. Just the way it is. Probbly a lot more effective to just sort it yourself.

    We have the right as citizens to retrieve our property through reasonable means. Walking into a shop and taking back your own property is perfectly fine. Having some big mates with you is helping to ensure that a breach of the peace does not occur.

    I’ve known coppers who’ve (privately) advocated such actions. We’re not talking about vigilanteism or violent retribution here, merely the retrieval of property using reasonable means.

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    Notifying the police when you spot your stolen bike worked for me, and others. There are a few examples on the blog I maintain:

    http://www.stolenbristolbikes.com/search/label/Recovered

    If you set out to retrieve your bike yourself you will have to confront some pretty shady people, who may know details such as where you live.

    Or, at the other end of the scale, you could be like the bloke who tried to physically wrestle my sister’s bike from her on a train, after becoming convinced that the common-as-muck low-end Trek she had covered in stickers (to stop it being nicked like her last bike) was his stolen bike. A pretty unpleasant experience for her.

    Even in the best case scenario (bike retrieved from wrongdoer, nobody hurt) there’s no arrest, no record of the thief and no chance of them being convicted of an offence.

    khani
    Free Member

    At least they’re trying, which is better than the other option of doing nothing,
    IMO…

    crashtestmonkey
    Free Member

    northwind, powers of arrest include suspecting an offence has occurred, not knowing it has. In the gumtree case I only suspect it has, we can neither know or believe it without further information. (turns out it was stolen, seller has been cautioned for handling and rightful owner is a happy camper).

    I hear a sound of breaking glass from a garden, look around and see someone running away with a laptop under their arm. I 1)suspect a crime has occurred and 2) suspect the person is responsible. I can therefore stop and arrest them. I could be wrong on both counts. This isnt the place and I dont have the time to try explain the fundamentals of law enforcement and police powers but we dont act on knowledge or belief, we act on suspicion, and most of our powers are based on that (there are some entry powers that require belief).
    Many crimes occur and are “detected” before the victim even knows. In the case of the cannondale rider, it wasn’t reported stolen until later that night, so just stopping the rider and checking whether the bike is stolen would have suggested it wasn’t and we would have sent him on his way, having recorded (probably false) details with a £1000 stolen bike. The rider’s behaviour combined with my experience suggested otherwise, and I was subsequently proved right. This is the sort of offence that would be picked up by a pro-active stop/seizure.

    Elfin, its nothing to do with not liking the look of someone as you probably well know. We may have intel or a brief witness description that would guide us to stop one person over another. And knowledge of an area will inform whether the person seen looks out of place, or their actions consistent with suspected criminal behaviour (feel free to throw in suggestions of racism etc, open goal and all that).

    As I clearly stated my assumption is based on victim of crime’s frustration at our lack of powers/action (only today a theft victim asked one of my PCs why we couldn’t put the suspect on a lie detector test). I deal with crime, criminals and victims all day and have no idea what you do for a living and I won’t join you in personal insults, but I’ve never had a victim complain about what we HAVE done, only what we haven’t (like robsoctane above).

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    At least they’re trying, which is better than the other option of doing nothing

    Hmm. As well-meaning as it may sound, I suspect it’s little more than a publicity exercise designed to get a few quick results, and make it appear the police are doing a ‘good job’. Sorry to sound so cynical, but IME this is mainly the case with stuff like this. Every now and then there’s such exercises in my area, clamping down on ASB, car tax evasion etc, street robberies what have you. What tends to happen is the police get a few ‘results’ (which seldom result in any decent convictions btw), the public are appeased an other types of crime are ignored and increase. Personally I’d be a lot keener on police trying to ensure public safety and stop violent crimes and that, than spend precious resources on a relatively low-level crime (as nasty as having a bike nicked is, it’s a relatively low-level crime). With police resources already stretched thin, and set to be degraded even further, I’d much rather the police concentrated what resources they have to tackling serious crime than tame publicity exercises.

    Which, sadly, leaves helping to prevent bike theft down to us, as citizens (Big Society in action, innit Dave?). Use decent locks. Lock up in safer places. Consider a cheap bike in a high bike theft area. Get insurance to soften the blow (good for the economy that one). Badger your work for secure bike storage. Etc.

    The few times I’ve had bikes nicked, all I’ve got from the police have bin ‘oh that’s a shame here’s a crime reference number for your insurance. One time I saw the thief ride off on my bike, flagged down a slow-moving police car which could easily have caught him up only to be told ‘sorry sir, it’s not important enough for us to deal with’. Nice. The only time I’ve retrieved a bike was by dealing with matters myself, without involving police (thus saving the taxpayer money).

    I’ll stick with what works, thanks.

    Elfin, its nothing to do with not liking the look of someone as you probably well know. We may have intel or a brief witness description that would guide us to stop one person over another. And knowledge of an area will inform whether the person seen looks out of place, or their actions consistent with suspected criminal behaviour.

    Unless someone matching my description has bin reported stealing a bike matching the description of mine, the police do not have ‘reasonable suspicion’ of a crime actually taking place, and therefore do not have the legal power to stop me. That’s the Law.

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