Often looking at photos in the great outdoors, you can’t tell how steep a trail is. A gnarly rocky descent on a steep hillside can come across as a flat track with some teeny rocks on. A big rooty drop off can look like a bit of a wood land trail.

BTW I’m too old now to call our sport/hobby/past time anything but mtbing.

VTT

Wot he says

But then again I guess most of us could take a road bike round glentress red – slowly and carefully using the chicken lines – so does that make glentress not mountainbiking?

This is where a lot of the definitions and so on will fall down.
Yes we (competent riders) could do it on a road bike.
Those of us into running could run it (in probably a similar time). If you wanted a work out you could probably do it on a pogo stick or a space hopper.

But for recreational mtbing, it is, I would hope, most fun on some sort of mtb.

Scotroutes

I’m not. I’m happy that it encompasses loads of stuff. I think TJ is trying to explain that to @stevextc with his “definition”. I’ve given up trying.

It’s not MY definition. Gravel became a thing.
We don’t own the future of mountain biking, the kids do.

Bunnyhop

BTW I’m too old now to call our sport/hobby/past time anything but mtbing.

I’m well past that age. What I do mind is reframing mountain biking specifically for people for whom it’s completely unsuited.

Next thing you get the moaners and pressure from action groups about how things should conform to their screwed up definitions of safe. Even more disturbingly is these sort of people actually WANT SOMEONE ELSE to have bad crash so they can validate their whining and have stuff made “safe” or destroyed according to their definitions…. and pressure landowners who are generous enough to allow and encourage trails

Trying to define MTBing is a bit sad.
It’s like listening to a bunch of teenagers arguing about which bands are ‘Metal’.

Pathetic. 😀

And what is called “gravel riding” these days was mountainbiking years ago.

For some, there’s others of us who’ve always been throwing ourselves of the edges of things to see what will happen since the 90’s.

This.

What is now “Gravel” has never been mountain biking for me other than a means to get to the fun bits. It wasn’t for any of the folks I rode with back in the ’90’s either and we live in an area almost as flat as Norfolk.

ATB seems to be a nomenclature that stirs a few memories from those days.

RustySpanner

Trying to define MTBing is a bit sad.
It’s like listening to a bunch of teenagers arguing about which bands are ‘Metal’.

Perhaps as to an extent it is what it is… it’s evolved and even evolved so far as to separate species…
However like anything with commercial interests some are going to try anyway and its a question of being pushed or pulled and what many will try and take away because they are against other people having fun doing what they like.

The whole assertion of Dangerous Sport to Fun Activity will end up trying to put MTB into a box that can be controlled and managed by the fun police.
Fundamentally the whole concept of “dangerous” is being projected as if its a reality without a proper definition or proper statistics for that definition. If anything it is trying to convince people that something that isn’t dangerous is.

Lets take the definition of the Butler committee.
PROPOSALS OF THE BUTLER COMMITTEE AND THE SCOTTISH COUNCIL ON CRIME IN THE UNITED KINGDOM

DANGEROUSNESS IS A PROPENSITY TO CAUSE SERIOUS PHYSICAL INJURY OR LASTING PSYCHOLOGICAL HARM.

Serious physical injury is death, paralysis it is most specifically not anything the minor injury clinic can treat like a broken arm or wrist… otherwise it wouldn’t be called a minor injury.

Even the most extreme forms of MTB rarely result in serious physical injury… Noone died at hardline yet… or even had a serious injury and everyone including the competitors is going to agree that is EXTREME

What we have is a misperception of what danger is perhaps?

Every time anyone looks for data on serious injuries in MTB there is never enough… take neck braces for example. Not enough people have serious injuries riding DH to make for meaningful stats either way.

In contrast take road cycling either as a sport of leisure activity where lots of people die and have serious injuries.

Ultimately most injuries in MTB (overwhelming) are minor, the result from hitting something be it the ground or another object and most of the time you just aren’t going that fast in MTB. You can crash off a jump or you can fall off a stile carrying the bike or riding from the car park to trails and the RESULT are all about the same.

Equally these minor injuries are not really avoidable… you can dodge them perhaps but there isn’t a version of MTB/road/horse riding or kids playgrounds that is free of risk of minor injuries.

People in the UK just need to accept it’s OK to have the odd minor injury .. and for those who see MTB as “dangerous” they need to reframe THEIR ideas of dangerous – kids need to have their playgrounds made more like other countries so the odd broken bone is normal and they learn to judge and manage risk…

There is a really good paper on this but this will do for now

tldr: bike companies, if they want to reframe mtbing should support youtube’s and the like to make content that would attract new participants.

I’m not the one invented “gravel riding” or the term it’s just something that happened with the evolution of (mountain) biking.

isn’t gravel riding an evolution of road bikes by making road bike more suitable for racing on unmade roads?

stevexc, while i understand your concerns, what is needed is the grading of the trails so that it is clear to folk what challenges they can expect to encounter and the level of fitness, skill or experience that they may need to safely complete the trail and signs at the entrance to the trail that make that clear. not sure where the level of information would stop. a black diamond will mean nothing to a person who doesn’t know what a black diamond indicates.

signs to point out the jumps/ride arounds could also help. what you don’t want to do is make the jumps rollable, it will ruin them in no time.

i do take issue with your definition that if a trail is wide enough for a car it is not mountain mining. their are trails wide enough for cars all over the alps that are steep enough and loose enough to warrant using a mountain bike rather than a gravel bike.

but getting back to the original question, cycling off road is physically difficult and and often cold and slippery. to give it the appeal of skiing, it needs to be as aspirational and not many people aspire to be wet and muddy.

skis also have lifts. introducing lifts to hills may raise the appeal, but then you’d need to have easy trails for people to ride back down.

the trails would need to be maintained and this would be difficult and expensive. as a result it probably wouldn’t be done properly and the easy trails would become difficult and unpleasant to ride by people looking for an easy and non-scary experience.

if you rely on volunteer labour to fix the trails, from what i’ve seen the volunteers will already be mountain bikers who are building the trails that they want to ride.

anyway, i’m boring myself with the negativity.

i understand the barriers to entry into mountain biking experienced by underrepresented groups, but if you want to mountain bike/ride off road why wouldn’t you just ride your bike in a park until you get bored of that, then move on to riding in the woods, etc.

obviously, you need a bike and a park and woods, but no amount of reframing mountain biking as a family day out will address that.

i watched paul the punter’s video on why he stopped mountain biking (it is the only video of his i’ve watched). he put forward an interesting point. he suggested that youtubers do more to advance the popularity of the sport/activity of mountain biking than the big brands. and i see what he means. how many folk would look at rampage and think “that’s for me!”?

meanwhile the youtubers are of various levels of abilities and better show what mountain biking is like for the vast majority of people. if bike brands wanted to get more people into riding off road, perhaps they should support, or even create grassroots/beginner type content?

he also said that jordie lunn had his fatal accident on a blue trail.

if they want to reframe mtbing should support youtube’s and the like to make content that would attract new participants.

“We” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that byline.

What I do mind is reframing mountain biking specifically for people for whom it’s completely unsuited.

You know what? Someone can call whatever they like ‘mountain biking’ if it gets more people riding bikes in the woods or hills. I don’t care, I’d be happy.

Make it safer, make it different, make it simpler or easier, make it less nerdy+techy, just get more people doing something that isn’t watching junk on tv or scrolling social media. Get people outside and feeling what living in the moment feels like. Or go climbing or birdwatching instead, it’s all outdoors, positive and real.

I don’t care because I don’t hang my own identity on the image of mountain biking. I think that goes for most of us who ride MTBs. I just ride bikes, all over the place. All kinds of bikes. They’re great and the more doing something similar the merrier.

Even the most extreme forms of MTB rarely result in serious physical injury… Noone died at hardline yet… or even had a serious injury and everyone including the competitors is going to agree that is EXTREME

What we have is a misperception of what danger is perhaps?

Alex Honnold is still alive, maybe soloing El Cap isn’t that dangerous either? : )

I’ve done way more damage to myself on my road bikes than MTB’ing, some very serious. MTB had been no more that a bruised shoulder. Road bike has been ribs twice, spine once, shoulder (needing surgery) once, shoulder again, and recently big scar on forearm. Thing is speed is an issue on road bikes, and cars.

I do, however, ride within my skills on the MTB – road bike has been other road users mainly, or conditions on the road suddenly changing (greasy surface/ice).

We had an epic day in October in the Clywidian range. Four of us, two were very fit. I managed OK but my mate suffered badly with the climbing involved. I’ve never been the same since breaking my spine so lost fitness, and one of our mates is a big lad. The other two, one is a seriously quick road rider (who MTB’s) and the other just quick riding anything and a bit of a nutter on a bike. The big lad suffered. The quick roadie/MTB rider stacked it less than a mile from the car going too quick down a grassy descent – wheel just dug into ruts. 4 broken ribs and a puntured lung – this happened on Saturday, he didn’t go to A&E until Monday when back in England – don’t crash in that bit of N. Wales.

It can be brutal MTB’ing – especially when in the middle of nowhere, and not in a trail centre.

jamesco

Alex Honnold is still alive, maybe soloing El Cap isn’t that dangerous either? : )

That’s not really the point.
The point really is hardline is probably towards the extreme end yet no-one died or even had a major injury despite lots and lots of crashes. I think this year over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice…but just a few broken bones etc.

I don’t care because I don’t hang my own identity on the image of mountain biking. I think that goes for most of us who ride MTBs. I just ride bikes, all over the place. All kinds of bikes. They’re great and the more doing something similar the merrier.

Unfortunately many who do suffer from self-image do take exception to others doing fun things and seek to stop them having fun because of their own irrational fears. They scream and shout and throw their toys out of the pram when a trail gets a feature that scares them and start making threats .. the “when someone hurts themselves I told you so” sort that then gets landowners nervous.

Ultimately someone will hurt themselves BECAUSE ITS MTB…. and they then are finally happy and all to ready to go give evidence.

Alex Honnold is still alive, maybe soloing El Cap isn’t that dangerous either? : )

That’s not really the point.
The point really is hardline is probably towards the extreme end yet no-one died or even had a major injury despite lots and lots of crashes. I think this year over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice…but just a few broken bones etc.

The point being that the riders or climbers doing these things have huge amounts of skill and experience and they work up to that level so injuries are probably less common than among the weekend warriors at BPW. And still,

‘over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice’
‘Just a few broken bones’
: )

How ‘dangerous’ it is is not something I’m taking a position on, it’s subjective. But safe to say MTB overall in general on average etc is not the same as RC car racing. Riding bikes away from traffic can be a very safe activity though.

Unfortunately many who do suffer from self-image do take exception to others doing fun things and seek to stop them having fun because of their own irrational fears. They scream and shout and throw their toys out of the pram when a trail gets a feature that scares them and start making threats .. the “when someone hurts themselves I told you so” sort that then gets landowners nervous.

If a landowner is getting nervous it needs managing by the rational people who risk assess things and get the permission to build the stuff. If you want to build trail features to add excitement that’s some of what comes with it?

Is this mountainbiking?

We’re calling it “wild cycling” now, do keep up.

he suggested that youtubers do more to advance the popularity of the sport/activity of mountain biking than the big brands

Well he would say that, wouldn’t he?

They’re doing **** all for advocacy though, apart from causing problems by popularising riding spots which would have been more word-of-mouth previously.

jameso

How ‘dangerous’ it is is not something I’m taking a position on, it’s subjective. But safe to say MTB overall in general on average etc is not the same as RC car racing. Riding bikes away from traffic can be a very safe activity though.

Sorry but if you want to say something is dangerous or safe or anything in-between to anyone other than yourself but especially in the context where it is going to be used to scare/threaten people you need to take a position and (in the wider context) provide evidence.
Hence why I took the PROPOSALS OF THE BUTLER COMMITTEE AND THE SCOTTISH COUNCIL as a yardstick.

I personally use a simpler one, is it something I’d be rushed to A&E or ICU directly from a minor injuries clinic.
If the NHS define it as a minor injury (i.e simple breaks etc.) then IMHO you need to say why you either disagree or agree before just dismissing it?

The point being that the riders or climbers doing these things have huge amounts of skill and experience and they work up to that level so injuries are probably less common than among the weekend warriors at BPW. And still,

‘over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice’
‘Just a few broken bones’
: )

Yet Kerr crashed full on with a completely exploded wheel as fast as most people would EVER go , walked away and rode the next day. Lots of people crashed yet no-one died… because crashing depends how fast and what you hit… hitting a stone wall on a gravel bike at the same speed would doubtlessly ended up in serious injury and probably death…

If a landowner is getting nervous it needs managing by the rational people who risk assess things and get the permission to build the stuff. If you want to build trail features to add excitement that’s some of what comes with it?

Except that isn’t what happens mostly… what happens is the land owner gets threatened by the fun police and they just decide its better to just go along with them or ban MTB on their land.

What is even going through the heads of the sicko’s that threaten them and the volunteers if they don’t do as they are told?

But safe to say MTB overall in general on average etc is not the same as RC car racing. Riding bikes away from traffic can be a very safe activity though.

All going back to the definition of dangerous and safe.
Accept a few minor injuries and its incredibly safe compared to road cycling…

LAT

anyway, i’m boring myself with the negativity.

Fair enough … thing is I think you start to think it through and ultimately you can’t keep it “open” AND “safe”

The criteria (which are pretty crap anyway) for trail grading then get “expected” on open access … and even if they were built that way they aren’t going to stay that way.

obviously, you need a bike and a park and woods, but no amount of reframing mountain biking as a family day out will address that.

That really depends on how you frame “family day out”
Would me, jnr and his aunt call a day riding double-triple blacks a family day out?
His mother isn’t going to do anything involves getting cold, muddy or she might get a bit hurt… my mum (gran) is fine with cold and wet and muddy but she’s not starting at 85… his mum’s sister would be all up for it
That said it would be the same for snowboarding or skiing…

Sorry but if you want to say something is dangerous or safe or anything in-between to anyone other than yourself but especially in the context where it is going to be used to scare/threaten people you need to take a position and (in the wider context) provide evidence.
Hence why I took the PROPOSALS OF THE BUTLER COMMITTEE AND THE SCOTTISH COUNCIL as a yardstick.

That’s cool – that’s what I meant, I personally don’t have to take a position on it as I’m not building trails or promoting MTB as one thing or another. I’m trying to see how others see MTB. What I think doesn’t matter here because I’m not judging MTB in any way that has a bearing on what it is.

If the NHS define it as a minor injury (i.e simple breaks etc.) then IMHO you need to say why you either disagree or agree before just dismissing it?

OK.. a broken bone might be classed as minor to the trained staff of the NHS but while I wouldn’t question their assessment it’d not be very minor to me personally : )
But we’re into semantics and anyone’s free to disagree when I suggest it’s reasonable to see more risks in MTB than a number of other pass-times or sports – which kind of is ‘taking a position on it’, but it’s more about reflecting how it may be seen generally, a lot of what this debate is about.

Yet Kerr crashed full on with a completely exploded wheel as fast as most people would EVER go , walked away and rode the next day.

Crashes can be so random can’t they, there isn’t much input=output repeatability. Where I think we find common ground is that Hardline or a trail centre should have a lowered risk due to risk assessments / minimisation, like an FMEA for routes. So they should be safer to some extent than roads and natural trail despite the perceptions of the activity happening on them and the ease of a broken collarbone etc wherever you ride, from a simple slip or a big crash landing. If you make that lower risk trail centre more enjoyable in terms of effort vs reward it’s becoming that ‘fun activity’.

I agree with a lot said here but feel positive. I’m an off road cyclist and find road biking terrifying but I do think we are all in this together. Riding 2 wheels under (all or mostly) our own power, covering enough distance to change the view, urban or rural, is the magic of cycling. Add the challenge of climbs/descents/gnar and it’s a truly rewarding activity. As a windsurfer, I see biking as an incredibly successful pastime with enormous variety, higher likelihood of an excellent day out and a great amount of youth coming up through the system. It’s (rightly) pretty flipping successful.
So to Hannah’s point, I believe we are just part of the enlightened people who take great joy from being out under the sky using our bodies to move and we belong to a wider and more diverse group of outdoor people, each doing something that gives us pleasure. Can we pool our resources and love for what we do and help encourage others to find what we’ve collectively found?

jameso

Crashes can be so random can’t they, there isn’t much input=output repeatability. Where I think we find common ground is that Hardline or a trail centre should have a lowered risk due to risk assessments / minimisation, like an FMEA for routes.

I don’t think we can pretend hardline is really safe, sooner or later someone who has chosen to do it will die… BUT it illustrates the point.

They ACCEPT the risk at their level… they shouldn’t be there if they cant do their own risk assessment. Everyone walks the track first … some/many bike parks do FULL track walks in the morning daily… to cover their own risk/insurance but they still have wavers.

So trail centres? That’s where it starts to get tricky…. because as you say crashes can be so random but also there is always going to be some snowflake with a lawyer. This even extends to non trail centres and permitted riding.

There is some guy currently making all sorts of threats to the charity that administer public access for Hurtwood … how he was an expert witness on a previous case awarding X Million… and threatening the recognised official trail builders that he knows who they are.

This all comes from some misguided idea that MTB is somehow “safe” in their definition…. that somehow someone can buy a bike and go and ride on someone else’s property on trails they didn’t build and if they get hurt because they are shit and/or just unlucky they can sue someone. There are always being to be sick individuals who’s source of enjoyment in life is ruining the enjoyment of others but we shouldn’t be putting this power into their hands.

This all comes from some misguided idea that MTB is somehow “safe” in their definition

It is safe.  Indeed the health benefits vastly outweigh the health risks

If you feel its unsafe then there is something odd about your risk assessment or you are riding well beyond your abilities

you are riding well beyond your abilities

Isn’t that a part of the fun for many? Pushing limits etc

It is safe. Indeed the health benefits vastly outweigh the health risks

If you feel its unsafe then there is something odd about your risk assessment or you are riding well beyond your abilities

Hence why snowflakes need to be told to just find some other pastime not REFRAME Mountain biking to their screwed up perception of risk.

Errmmm – IMO its you that has the odd perception thinking a safe pastime is dangerous.  Its not.

Isn’t that a part of the fun for many? Pushing limits etc

It’s still SAFE… as DANGEROUS means DEATH or paralysis … anything else is just part and parcel of MTB.
If people try and reframe SAFE as not risk breaking the odd bone they need to go find another hobby as that isn’t possible in MTB.

SAFE as not risk breaking the odd bone they need to go find another hobby as that isn’t possible in MTB.

Yes it is.  the vast majority of us never break bones

tjagain

Yes it is. the vast majority of us never break bones

It just means you have been lucky or you don’t MTB…

Nope – it means your perception of risk is skewed.     MTBing is not risky.

It just means you have been lucky or you don’t MTB…

Source?

Nope – it means your perception of risk is skewed. MTBing is not risky.

I agree because breaking an odd bone and other minor injuries doesn’t make it risky…

matt_outandabout

Source?

People fall 3′ and break bones all the time…. it’s called bad luck.

Source?

actually why you asking for my source…??? it’s TJ claiming the vast majority of us never break bones..where his his source?

I agree because breaking an odd bone and other minor injuries doesn’t make it risky…

It doesn’t make it risky…to you. Others can and will think very differently, especially when you start breaking bones.

mtb CAN be dangerous but it depends on your abilities and what you’re doing at the time.
As far as risk assessments go, human beings are very poor at assessing risk, most either turn a blind eye to it or convince themselves it wont happen to them.

it’s TJ claiming the vast majority of us never break bones..where his his source?

30+ years of mountainbiking with a huge variety of folk of all skills.  Ive seen one broken bone.  40+ years of road riding two deaths

Its much safer than road riding for example but some of you seem to think its this dangerous extreme sport when it really is not.  Why this need to see it in this way is beyond me.  Unless your assessment of risk is crap and you ride way beyond your abilities then its simply not dangerous

^^A handy little exchange for illustrating the original point of discussion (long after the event)…

How many promoters of sports/hobbies try to woo potential participants by stating broken bones are part and parcel of it, or that failure to injure yourself is evidence that your not ‘really doing it’…

That’s definitely how you’ll grow MTBing, double down on the “Bro-vado”…

TJ

30+ years of mountainbiking with a huge variety of folk of all skills. Ive seen one broken bone. 40+ years of road riding two deaths

Just because you only saw one doesn’t mean there weren’t others…. (unless you have some super power xray vision)

Its much safer than road riding for example but some of you seem to think its this dangerous extreme sport when it really is not.

Of course its safer than road riding… Safe being the opposite of DANGEROUS.

I’m not claiming its a dangerous sport, I’m saying it has an inherent risk of minor injury.
Why are you even trying to conflate a few broken bones with dangerous sport?

Conventionally risk analysis has 2 main axes… likelihood and impact and you keep conflating them.

Why this need to see it in this way is beyond me. Unless your assessment of risk is crap and you ride way beyond your abilities then its simply not dangerous

I’ve not said it WAS dangerous…. quite the opposite the chance of death is minimal

Hitting a brick wall/bus at 60 mph is dangerous…. falling on the floor at 10-15 mph isn’t… You can kill yourself at 15mph but it’s very difficult and involves a lot of bad luck.

If we conflate risk of minor injuries with danger (impact)… and people get the idea they can MTB without risk of the odd minor injury then the snowflakes start suing and injury lawyers and ambulance chasers ensue and trails get closed.

Flicker

It doesn’t make it risky…to you. Others can and will think very differently, especially when you start breaking bones.
mtb CAN be dangerous but it depends on your abilities and what you’re doing at the time.

If we step back … rather than my response to a response to a response….
MTB isn’t risky in terms of consequences (impact) only in terms of frequency of minor injuries.

Breaking the odd bone isn’t high impact… snowflakes might pretend it is but we can’t live our lives based round people with a skewed sense of reality.

As far as risk assessments go, human beings are very poor at assessing risk, most either turn a blind eye to it or convince themselves it wont happen to them.

More to the point risk around MTB is often completely screwed …
“What if I case the gap?” – erm you slow down a lot and can’t do the next jump
“What if my front wheel washes out on a loose stone or slippery root” – you’ll probably pile your head into the ground
“What if I have a mechanical or there is a white out in the middle of nowhere in winter?” – erm you’ll quiote possibly die if you don’t have sufficient survival equipment

and the absolute classic?
“what if I have a heart attack on the climb” …. ask very few people ever.
or “what if I have a traffic accident on the way to the trails”

Many people see the first one as “risky or dangerous” but you’re going to hurt yourself the same just slipping on a root at the same speed (and most jumps absolutely require <15mph) and don’t even consider the danger of driving somewhere or being stranded in the middle of nowhere in winter.

cookeaa

How many promoters of sports/hobbies try to woo potential participants by stating broken bones are part and parcel of it,

Why should we be trying to woo anyone ?
On the other hand lying to people and pretending its not part and parcel of MTB is .. well lying…
More importantly with the snowflakes and ambulance chasers in today’s UK it is what is going to kill MTB

or that failure to injure yourself is evidence that your not ‘really doing it’…

I’m confused as to what that is in reference to ?

If we step back … rather than my response to a response to a response….
MTB isn’t risky in terms of consequences (impact) only in terms of frequency of minor injuries.

Breaking the odd bone isn’t high impact… snowflakes might pretend it is but we can’t live our lives based round people with a skewed sense of reality.

I’d disagree regarding breaking bones, it is high impact and it can be a serious problem depending on the severity of the break, where you are and who you’re with when it happens.
I wouldn’t class it as a safe pass time either, but then everything we do carries a level of risk. The trick is assessing the risk level and doing what we can to mitigate those risks, if you can accept that then crack on, if not then don’t do it. As I said though, we’re generally rubbish at assessing risk.

flicker

I’d disagree regarding breaking bones, it is high impact and it can be a serious problem depending on the severity of the break, where you are and who you’re with when it happens.

We seem to be almost violently agreeing …. I’m simply disagreeing on it being high impact by definition of a broken bone.

Punctured lungs and internal bleeding are high impact but just breaking a bone in itself is just a trivial minor injury without complications.. and these tend to be the level of MTB injuries for most of us that aren’t riding hardline.

I wouldn’t class it as a safe pass time either, but then everything we do carries a level of risk.

As I’ve been saying for several pages… without some definition of “safe” and “dangerous” it’s quite meaningless outside of our personal definitions. Even in terms of impact the same injury can have a different impact on different people depending on their work and benefits and health.

The whole point is there is a random aspect to crashing… it doesn’t matter how slow you go a root can be slippery, a rock can come loose etc. and you can break a bone or dislocate a joint just falling off a stationary bike or 2 steps of a step ladder so it is never without risk of minor injury.

If we don’t resist this snowflake HSSE bullsh%t at every opportunity we are going to end up in a world no-one can do anything without some HSSE piece of crap interfering and threatening legal action.

Safe would be accidents rare and serious accidents extremely rare

Mountainbiking would fit this

BYW – I am trained in risk assessment and am not confusing incidence and severity.

Why you have this need to claim its risky, broken bones are the norm i cannot fathom.  Why this pretense that its an extreme sport when its a safe pastime and why this weird emphasis on snowflakes and health and safety ruining things?

Its so detached from reality or the norm its unfathomable to me