France and the Burka Ban-should they ban it?

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  • France and the Burka Ban-should they ban it?
  • zaskar
    Member

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8473822.stm

    I have to agree with them but I don't want to seem racist. When in France I want to be in France not Mecca.

    Is it racist? or is it forcing people to adapt to France rather than France adapt to Islam interpretation by some?

    Ideas?

    5thElefant
    Member

    A simple law preventing you from covering your face/head unless there's a good reason would do the trick (and being oppressed isn't one).

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    Personally i think it is offensive to civil liberties.

    France however, is a legally secular Nation, the UK is not. We have a State-sanctioned Church(es) and a Monarch who is head of that Church. We could not legally enforce a ban on religious symbology without disestablishing the Church etc.

    dickydutch
    Member

    +1 for 5thElefant

    And ban those frigging stupid hoddies which also have a face part in the style of a WW2 gas mask.

    Premier Icon Coyote
    Subscriber

    5thElefant +2

    plant
    Member

    I'm from the old school that says "when in Rome, do as ….." so I think the French have the perfect right to put a stop to the Burka and I would like to see the same thing here.

    uplink
    Member

    If I were French, I would agree with the ban
    I'm not so I don't really care what they do

    zaskar
    Member

    Understood uplink but it could apply here one day and implications from it could be positive or negative in the long term.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Understood uplink but it could apply here one day and implications from it could be positive or negative in the long term.

    Can't see it.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    They do things differently in France….

    They don't for instance have the notion of state measured ethnicity, one is French, and that's the end of the matter, they don't for instance label each other "Afro-British" for example as we do, you're just French. This has both obvious advantages and obvious disadvantages.

    The burqua ban has to be seen in this context, it's simply "not French" I don't think it's necessarily right or wrong, although I'm uncomfortable with it being banned personally. I don't think such a law would or could be passed in this country for instance.

    uplink
    Member

    I'd not be unduly concerned if it were implemented here

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    its bollox in my opinion

    while im not a fan of the burkha (hate all religions) the government has no right to tell me what clothes i can or cant wear

    5thElefant
    Member

    its bollox in my opinion

    while im not a fan of the burkha (hate all religions) the government has no right to tell me what clothes i can or cant wear
    Would you be particularly bothered if you weren't allowed to wear a mask and hood in public?

    zaskar
    Member

    5thElefant – Member

    Understood uplink but it could apply here one day and implications from it could be positive or negative in the long term.

    Can't see it.

    Take off your burka?

    I could see it happening here if done democratically with votes but probably would be as a backlash to Islam fear. Also other religions would be next like turbans and wearing crosses in school…

    Maybe you're right.

    I do like the idea of French or non French. But would people accept it here?

    Ban on Hoodies? great idea!

    IanMunro
    Member

    Would you be particularly bothered if you weren't allowed to wear a mask and hood in public?

    As a recreational ninja such an imposition would seriously affect my ability to ninge.

    snakebite
    Member

    I'm with Plant.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Would you be particularly bothered if you weren't allowed to wear a mask and hood in public?

    you ever been to a fetish club?

    jond
    Member

    The religious requirement, as I understand it (I could check with some mates or colleagues I guess), is to dress modestly. If you look through the muslim world that's interpreted very differently – it's a cultural issue (as is female circumcision, for example, which is also illegal in the UK).

    Equally, you wouldn't expect to go to a muslim country walking around inappropriately dressed..tho' the irony there is that a western woman in *some* countries is far more likely to be hassled…so much for western decadence…

    5thElefant
    Member

    you ever been to a fetish club?

    No, but that's not public, it's a private club. If you want to dress up like a ninja in private that's completely fine.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    I,m with muddydwarf.

    France has a secular constitution and this gives a rather different complexion on these sorts of things. In the UK in would be much harder to do.

    You have to remember that the complete covering of the face is no means accepted in Islam as needed – covering your hair, arms and legs is enough to satisfy the needs of the religion according to most Islamic scholars. No need to cover the face. It makes me uneasy and could be a cover for racism but given the constitutionally secular nature of France then its easier to do than in the UK.

    Premier Icon mtbfix
    Subscriber

    How on earth does it make you uneasy?

    5thElefant
    Member

    I've never understood how bleeding hearts don't make a fuss about burkhas. If the BNP insisted their women should wear masks in public the bleeding hearts would go apeshit over it.

    And… where are the bloody feminists? They should be making a real fuss.

    Liberal racism – "they don't know any better"?

    oldgit
    Member

    Am I right in thinking that the Burka isn't even an item of religious dress, more to do with some acient muslim guy hiding his wives from peeping toms by a curtain and the fashion catching on.
    If so then isn't it only as sensitive as a hoodie or black balaclava.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    And… where are the bloody feminists?

    Some Islamic feminists have co-opted the buqua.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    Freedom of expression though isn't it?

    'IF' we were ever to bring in a law like that on the dubious grounds of combatting terrorism, it would then inevitably lead to other acts being created on similarly dubious grounds – don't like hooded sweatshirts so ban them etc.
    What next, long hair banned for blokes?
    Trousers banned for women?

    Bad law inevitably breeds more bad law.

    I don't like the burkha, but as long as people choose to wear it then that's their affair.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    mtbfix – Member

    How on earth does it make you uneasy?

    Uneasy because I wonder if the intent is racist or that it is a start of an attack on religious freedoms.

    Its one of those areas where its easy to see with "commonsense" what he answer should be – but actually trying to define this and write it down in such a ay that it couldn't be used as an instrument of oppression – and will it lead to even more restricted lives for these women as they might then be forbidden from leaving the house at all.

    5th – weirdly enough many women want to wear them – perhaps brainwashed into it. I believe you are 100% right that it is an instrument of oppression but as above I find that the idea of the state saying what you can and cannot wear makes me uneasy.

    No easy answer and I have no firm opinion.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    oldgit – Member

    Am I right in thinking that the Burka isn't even an item of religious dress, more to do with some acient muslim guy hiding his wives from peeping toms by a curtain and the fashion catching on.
    If so then isn't it only as sensitive as a hoodie or black balaclava.

    Pretty much. As I put above most Islamic scholars would consider keeping hair, arms and legs covered would be enough.

    There was an interesting case in the UK a year or two about this. a girl at school wanted to wear not a burka but a long flowing robe that is worn by some islamic women. The school refused to let her and as a part of the subsequent court case the local Imam stated that the clothes that were acceptable to the school were acceptable to Islam as well

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    surely lycra is the next thing to ban offensive if you ask me.



    hels
    Member

    "where are the feminists ??"

    Over here !

    In my humble opinion the wearing of the Burka is totally offensive and not the woman's choice at all in any realistic way, and only a few faltering steps away female circumcision.

    Although it said on Radio 4 (so it must be true, I'll check the Guardian) that only about 2000 women wear it so a ban is a bit heavy handed and strikes me as bullying women who are already extremely vulnerable. How about they just throw the husbands/fathers etc in jail until they give the women their freedom ??

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    How about they just throw the husbands/fathers etc in jail until they give the women their freedom ??

    They would argue that they are liberating women from male oppression.

    uplink
    Member

    How about they just throw the husbands/fathers etc in jail until they give the women their freedom ?

    who'd make the tea for the kids?

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    It shouldn't be banned. Nor should mini-skirts or other such delights 🙂

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Hels – there was a very interesting piece in the Guardian – a British (non practising) muslim went to one of the residential religious schools in Pakistan. Teh pressure on her to wear a burka came from the other women there.

    Perhaps its brainwashing / indoctrination but in some cases it clearly is the woman's choice to wear it.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Perhaps its brainwashing / indoctrination but in some cases it clearly is the woman's choice to wear it.

    Female circumcision is the same. Just because it's other women applying the pressure it doesn't mean it should be condoned.

    gonefishin
    Member

    So in order to protect women and ensure that they are free to choose what they should wear, certain items of clothing should be banned?

    I'm surely not alone in detecting a slight trace of irony here.

    hels
    Member

    TJ I read that piece in the Guardian and interpreted it very differently. IIRC In the end she wore it to fit in, much like the other women I would imagine. It was all very sad.

    hels
    Member

    It is a bit like the prostitution argument n'est-ce pas ?

    The Police arrest the women not the men.

    I think I would have to say that I am anti-burka wearing but believe that banning it won't solve the problems.

    allthepies
    Member

    keep it just for the ugly birds ?

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