It does seem a hell of a lot of money for an automated lockout.  When i use lockouts/climb switches i inevitably end up leaving them on for descents but it’s not a £1000+ and loads of wiring problem.

How it rides will be the thing – they obviously think there are benefits.

So from what I understand it’s aimed at trail riders.. and perhaps Enduro… and they are not marketing at XC.

As expected a load of people writing it off having not tried it because they don’t see the point.

yes it’s very expensive, however the few people to have tried it have had very positive experiences with it and it’s been in development for years, so the bleeding edge will have to pay for it if they want it.

Well yep, I don’t see the point for trail riding and the reviews I’ve seen have been between luke warm and prefer it switched off.

Ultimately its not bleeding edge though… you have to take the lower specced fork for starters.  Faced with a choice between the better fork and the electronic one even at the same cost I’d be going for the better fork damping.

Then there is climb… or lock out or … is it also going to play with HSR??  (ala CC)

But ultimately … other than being ANOTHER thing to charge… etc. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with the predictability.  How does it know when I want to compress for a jump etc??  or how do I know how much pump …

If you compare this to a car … something like traction control is different to an automatic.  I’m happy with traction control but not a fully automatic as it has no idea when I WANT to change down because I’m reading the road ahead… assuming this was on a race track… which should be WRX (to be fair) then none would use a fully automatic without paddles.

The bike is much more physical. and a huge part of the bike’s control is by me shifting my weight.. so these run together…. where my weight is depends on the shock for example… .

So if it’s not for XC I am struggling to see the point…. ?

Also, they keep saying that it reacts much faster than a human can. But that’s missing the point. A human can anticipate what’s coming up and adjust the suspension “before” they hit the first bump, not 2ms after.

That is definitely my skepticism…. though it’s not so much adjusting the suspension as how/when you weight the bike and the suspension being predictable as to what its doing.

I guess I can see the logic, but it seems to rely on the idea that it can react to a bump before you feel it. I can’t see how that works if the sensor is mounted in the fork crown (i.e. above the damper).

It cant – and it wouldn’t even matter if they mounted it on the lowers as the shock is transmitted virtually instantaneously. By the time the accelerometer has registered the acceleration it has been transmitted to your hands.

The fact they have included a sensitivity setting and a timer means they haven’t somehow broken Physics.

They are relying on 2 things….

1, A lock out is not a genuine lockout – instead its just high compression damping and/or a blow off circuit to protect the fork internals from big impacts.

2, A lot of the time a large impact would be proceeded by smaller less noticeable impacts that would unlock the shock.

To work perfectly you would need forward looking camera’s, flawless machine vision and a powerful computer to anticipate the upcoming rock garden. Fortunately such a system does in fact exist outside of Science fiction – the human head.

Not sure how the F1 active suspension worked in detail, but they seemed to have been able to sense bumps quickly enough to get it to work using 25 year old technology.

I don’t understand why it’s so expensive. Ei did the same thing 10 years ago. The tech is not new so why the price just to do a lockout switch?

But, it’s not the same as Ei – Ei sensed an impact in the fork and opened the rear shock. Live valve senses a impact and opens the fork and the shock.

I’ve actually had a ride on a live valve bike…

would i spend my hard-earned on it? not at current prices in my current financial state. if i was loaded, and was already looking at finance on a £7k bike i might be tempted to spend an extra £50 a month, or whatever, to get it yeah.

was it genuinely impressive as to how it performs? yes. i’ve ridden the bike at a kerb, and there’s almost no perceptible lag for the fork to open, and the shock is fully open by the time the wheel hits it. it not opening in time for you to noticeably suffer on descents isn’t an issue. on descents it’s basically just open – you can adjust the sensitivity of the system too to suit how or what you ride. if it runs out of battery it defaults to open, not locked as some of the stuff out there on it kinda suggests.

is it perfect? no. bunny hops on tarmac take a bit of getting used to, as how you load the bike is different. there’s extra complexity, it’s not listed on bikes i would actually want to ride right now.

did people say exactly the same thing about suspension forks and disc brakes 20 years ago? yep.

I guess I can see the logic, but it seems to rely on the idea that it can react to a bump before you feel it.

The first one yes, but it’s not designed to smooth out single bumps in otherwise smooth trails.  It’s based on the idea that trails often have whole bumpy sections then whole smooth sections.

And in any case, you have a tyre which adds some to the reaction time. So the tyre hits, the sensor could sense that small initial shock and open it in time for the rebound of the tyre transferring to the suspension.  You’d have to test ride it before criticising it on that basis.

I’m not cheerleading for it, but I can see how the issue you highlight might not be a problem.

I’ve had bikes with a “lockout”, pro-pedal on/off (which added a lot of compression damping but was never full locked), and the climb switch on the X2 (which adds some compression damping but not a huge amount).  Also rode the original mk1 brain specialized which felt like it missed the first bump (which this system is trying to get around)

They were all fine switched on for tarmac and for dead smooth gravel roads but on anything with any degree of bumpiness the bike always feels better with it switched off.

Switching on and off very quickly might give some benefits and if you wound down the settings so it was just adding a load of compression i can see it might make pedalling more efficient.  It’s the trail/enduro marketing that’s odd  – usually all the smart shock stuff is aimed at racing.

Default is unlocked. The pinkbike article talks about this.

It also has a ’tiltometer’ (can’t remember right word) so it’s unlocked when the slope is over 6 degrees.

And in any case, you have a tyre which adds some to the reaction time. So the tyre hits, the sensor could sense that small initial shock and open it in time for the rebound of the tyre transferring to the suspension.

The sensor is not on the tyre its on the fork. how can the sensor sense anything until the force has transferred from the tyre to the fork.

The old brain inertial valve system in theory should react quicker since it is purely mechanical and no processing is required. The only advantage this system has is the timer to keep the valve open for longer after the initial shock and the inclinometer. They should make a marked improvement over the brain but that initial impact you will still feel if coming from smooth.

really interesting stuff.

however i do think its missing the opportunity. mass integration will be along shortly i would have thought?

and d2i? no need when you have a gearbox?

The tyre doesn’t insulate everything – it will transmit the initial impact in high frequencies, i.e. a sound, but absorb most of the lower frequencies that form the thump.

Like I say, it’s plausible that it will open to dissipate force before most of it hits your hands, but I’ve not ridden it nor have I been involved in its development so I cannot say for sure either way.  However given that a poster here has ridden it and does not report an issue, I see no reason to disbelieve his/her post.

I can see the benefit of this for enduro racers, but for those of us just out to have some fun on a hill, it seems a bit OTT.

What would be a real game changer would be a scaled down version of Delphi’s Magneride suspension, used by Ferrari, Audi and others, adapted for bike suspension. The system uses variable magnetic fields to alter the viscosity of the damping fluid to modulate the flow of the fluid through the piston, thereby altering the firmness of the suspension instantaneously based upon input from the systems sensors. That would allow for bike susension that was truly adaptive to the terrain, not just on or off.

Not sure how the F1 active suspension worked in detail, but they seemed to have been able to sense bumps quickly enough to get it to work using 25 year old technology.

Yes but I’m not moving my own weight around in a car…. or pre-loading

Point is that the F1 guys got it to react fast enough, and it wasn’t just a damping lockout, it replaced the springs with hydraulics that were controlled electronically and kept the ride height stable. Seems to disprove the idea that it wouldn’t be able to unlock a damper fast enough for an MTB.

Automatic shifting – now that might be worth 2 grand. Never a shock adjuster though. Few 100 quid at most.

Point is that the F1 guys got it to react fast enough, and it wasn’t just a damping lockout, it replaced the springs with hydraulics that were controlled electronically and kept the ride height stable. Seems to disprove the idea that it wouldn’t be able to unlock a damper fast enough for an MTB.

Well there are a few opinions on this but I think the physical speed of the unlock isn’t the issue… it’s the reading the trail ahead… before you get to it.

For F1 they could theoretically program in a track and have cameras for other cars and automatically switch gears but ultimately they use paddles because the driver is reading the track and other vehicles.

At least for me I want to know the compression and rebound before I compress before a jump or bunny hop…  even though it’s fast enough to detect the jump and then unlock it’s going to feel inconsistent I’d have thought.

My thinking is this is like hitting a jump with your shock and forks accidentally locked.  Not a monster jump… something you’d do on a rigid DJ bike or in any rate with harder forks…  so you don’t need the shock/forks it’s just that you take them onto account … and use the preload instead of fighting it..  or like starting a DH section and thinking your dropper is down… when it isn’t… Even though I might ride this descent on my dropper less HT XC bike its knowing the seat is there…. vs the surprise when you think it’s not

I guess you might get used to this and adapt … in the same way we adapt riding different bikes but I’m struggling really to see the application.  It seems a bit (to me) like the F1 driver explaining that they want to change gear depending how they want to pass someone or not rather than letting the suspension handle the forces.

While the default position is unlocked, the solenoid valve they use requires power to move from either state (locked or unlocked) and it requires no power to remain in either state. Basically, when it senses a low battery it will unlock and turn off the computer. If you unplug it/break it/rip a wire out/system crashes it will stay in whatever position it was last in (likely to be locked).

How does it know when I want to compress for a jump etc??  or how do I know how much pump …

Why would it need to? In that respect wouldn’t it be better because you would not need to compress the suspension to preload the bike.

What would be a real game changer would be a scaled down version of Delphi’s Magneride suspension, used by Ferrari, Audi and others, adapted for bike suspension. The system uses variable magnetic fields to alter the viscosity of the damping fluid to modulate the flow of the fluid through the piston, thereby altering the firmness of the suspension instantaneously based upon input from the systems sensors. That would allow for bike suspension that was truly adaptive to the terrain, not just on or off.

Look closer to home – ohlins have had this tech on road motorbikes for a few years with semi-active compression and rebound damping. Not magnetic but it doesn’t need to be, they have electronically controlled valves inside the shocks and forks.

The motorbike versions alter the damping in milliseconds based on the road surface, riding style, speed, lean angle etc. on a smooth road it’ll firm up and then soften when you hit some bumps. Brake hard and the fork will firm up to prevent dive. I reckon fox live valve will evolve into this over a few years, from switching between fully open and fully closed damping to everything in between. On a smooth road it’ll lock out, on small regular stutter bumps it’ll soften off completely but firm up when hitting bigger stuff, and so on. Basically you’ll have a suspension expert adjusting your damping for the conditions several hundred times a second. You’ll be able have the fork plush as you like for small bump sensitivity yet also have it firm enough to prevent bottoming out on big hits. I wouldn’t be surprised to see ‘riding modes’ in there too:  road, trail, enduro for instance, with each mode having a base line of firmness.

I’m not particularly excited about the current system, but if it takes off in a few years the technology could be very exciting indeed.

It could also stiffen and soften as you pedal, since that’s a pretty regular predictable loading.

Why would it need to? In that respect wouldn’t it be better because you would not need to compress the suspension to preload the bike.

Yeah but, if it’s locked out, you bend your legs then just as you’re ready to push off you hit a bump and it opens up, it’d soak up all your lift.  Comedy crash time 🙂

It cant – and it wouldn’t even matter if they mounted it on the lowers as the shock is transmitted virtually instantaneously. By the time the accelerometer has registered the acceleration it has been transmitted to your hands.</span>

The fact they have included a sensitivity setting and a timer means they haven’t somehow broken Physics.

They are relying on 2 things….

1, A lock out is not a genuine lockout – instead its just high compression damping and/or a blow off circuit to protect the fork internals from big impacts.

2, A lot of the time a large impact would be proceeded by smaller less noticeable impacts that would unlock the shock.

To work perfectly you would need forward looking camera’s, flawless machine vision and a powerful computer to anticipate the upcoming rock garden. Fortunately such a system does in fact exist outside of Science fiction – the human head.

I think you underestimate just how fast these systems can react and adjust the damping. Within a few milliseconds modern semi active suspension can go from full damping to minimum damping. Fox say live valve can go from locked out to unlocked in 3 milliseconds. That’s 0.003 seconds. At 30mph, in 3 milliseconds you’ll have travelled 4cm. Obviously it can’t predict the terrain so it can only react to impacts felt by the fork but again these systems are measuring fork travel 1000 times a second. So ok, if you’re doing 30mph riding along a road and hit a kerb you might feel a tiny bit of force through the fork until the system opens up. 99.9% of the time it will have adjusted before you even feel the bump.

F1 cars have manual gearboxes because that is the rule. F1 active suspension used fluid for springs.

Active shocks on cars (and probably motorbikes) change the viscosity of the oil to change the damping. That system uses magnets and oil filled with bits of metal. This maybe too heavy for a bicycle.

the sensor for the fork is on the arch, not the crown.

This has nothing to do with F1 gearboxes. Back in the 90s F1 had active suspension which used hydraulic cylinders and pumps instead of springs. The benefit was that they could keep the car at the same ride height over bumpy sections of track so the aerodynamics weren’t affected. How they did that in detail, I don’t know, but they obviously were able to make it respond fast enough that it could deal with much greater speeds than an MTB.

My guess is that the limiting factor for the Fox system will be the mechanical inertia of the lockout. The electronics will be extremely fast but there will be physical limits to how quickly you can make things move.

I still think the Fox thing is pointless, but I’m pretty sure it works as advertised.

It sounds very clever, but I am going to avoid needing it so that I can spend the large amount of money on something else. 🙂

Yeah but, if it’s locked out, you bend your legs then just as you’re ready to push off you hit a bump and it opens up, it’d soak up all your lift.  Comedy crash time

Or just not knowing ….  or the reverse … you plan on it being open but it isn’t…

I’ve forgotten to unlock a few times and say you had a set of tabletops then the first one is WTF… you work it out (or comedy crash) then by the next jump you realised and you pre-load and adjust… I’d be perfectly happy doing these on the HT or the FS .. but not knowing which one (as it were) would sure mess with me.

Same goes for pre-hops … just how much energy do you put in?

In my head this feels like when you drive round a bend in 5th when you thought you were in 3rd… or visa versa except my driving is never anywhere near the limit.  It’s not going to make me crash… just feel weird.

When I put that together it seems what is missing is an over-ride… (on the bars)… where you can force it to stick in one setting.  Then I wonder if the rest of the gubbings is really needed.

My guess is that the limiting factor for the Fox system will be the mechanical inertia of the lockout. The electronics will be extremely fast but there will be physical limits to how quickly you can make things move.

The MBR video explains it a bit more – in the valve within the fork is basically 2 magnets acting on a piece of metal that closes or opens the valve.

So, if the system is polling the forks/brain at 1000hz (Bluetooth is 125hz max polling rate which is why it’s not wireless) all it takes is the time from the fork sensor on the lower leg arch telling the brain that it’s detected a bump, the brain then working out if the bump force is fast/hard enough to warrant opening the valve. If = yes then it sends the instruction back down the wires to the fork and shock controllers on the crown/in the shock to open the valve, which then sends the signal to whichever magnet opens the valve.

If it works as I think it’ll work then as soon as the fork/shock gets the signal to open the valve it’ll be instantaneous as the valve mechanism probably only has to move fractions of a millimetre. As soon as it does, fork is open.

For a few reasons I don’t think the system is for me (price, not using lock out enough at the moment), however what it could (and should) lead to in the future IS something I’d be interested in.

What I see it leading to is what’s called ‘semi-active’ suspension, you’d have a button on the handlebar to switch from lockout to non locked out on fork/shock/both, but that’s a side-benefit – the real thing would be on the fly active damping which adjusts the damping several hundred times a second based on the terrain you’re riding. Imagine never having to fiddle with high speed, low speed compression, high speed, low speed damping on your fork, and the same on your shock ever again but still getting incredible small bump sensitivity and the progression to firm up for bigger hits. Just hit the button on the bar to switch between ‘Climb’ mode, ‘Trail’ mode, or ‘Enduro’ which sets a base level of firmness but still adjusts the damping from there.