the Paddy Wagons have shorter head tubes than the Condor Tempo

That is a good spot. There is quite a difference in stack height between the 58 condor and the 59 Kona, 23mm to be precise. I felt comfortable sitting on the Condor as it is in the pic which looks like there is about 30mm of spacers. I could probably experiment with lowering the condor but trying to add 50mm of stack may be an issue and even if it is possible it will look stupid which is perhaps more important 🙂

If anything it seems to me that it is the Condor that has unusual measurements. When I first saw the photograph of the bike the head tube struck me as being very long relative to the top tube length, whereas everything looks in very classic proportions on TiRed’s Paddy Wagon above (even the saddle to bars drop is not that large given that the stem is slammed), although TiRed’s frame looks like it is a smaller size and I don’t know if the relative proportions would be the same for a 59cm.

It might be worth doing a bit more research, such as checking for any posts on these frames on LFGSS or even joining that forum and asking their advice. One possibility that occurs to me is that Condor may have deliberately opted for short top tubes (and possibly longer head tubes) to make the frame more attractive to fixed gear hipsters wanting a more upright position for riding in London trafffic*.

In other words, I would have expected the Kona geometry and sizing to be more conventional, given that it is a global brand and will want the bike and frame to have the widest appeal.

That all said, the right bike for you is the one that fits you, and if that is the Condor, then that is the right bike for you.

* Edited to correct a brain fart.

I’ve got a Condor Pista, a Steamroller and a Pompino, I’ve also owned 2 other Pomps and Rollers. I’m selling the Condor, it’s really good but a bit nice for everyday riding and not as good an all rounder as the others. I had a Pompino, but I love Surly so sold it to buy a Steamroller, it turned out slightly too big, so bought a smaller one, I use it a lot on tow paths and cycle tracks, I was offered an early version at a really silly price so bought it and swapped all the bits over from the Surly, I’m really Surly biased, but I have to say, back to back the Pompino rides better, it’s lighter, as comfortable and I’ve gone down a tooth on the rear……and the best fixed I’ve ever owned? An unknown 531c fixed bike I bought for £70, rode for years and sold it on (for a profit), would love it back…..

and the best fixed I’ve ever owned? An unknown 531c

Same here. I have had around 10 or so fixed frames and the best ride is from a 531c I bought a year ago. Seems to be a great tubeset.

OK, which one of you buggers posted the link to the discounted Paddy Wagon? Whoever it was, you’ve just cost me £400. Interest free credit though, so that makes it ok…

That’s just the start. Get Harry to build you some wheels. I’ve sold two pairs for him already. You’ll love it.

So, the Paddy Wagon has arrived and it’s lush. Small scratch by the seat tube but nothing to worry about.

Working from home today has allowed me to set it up and have a quick test ride up the road. Conclusion so far is that:
1. It will be fun.
2. My knees are going to hate me.
3. The saddle will take some getting used to.
4. It’s just the right side of hipster to not look too embarrassing with a 40 ish year old MAMIL on it.

You’ll need a 15T on the back to maintain progress. A 14T for club riding. Unless you are in a hilly area, your knees will be fine. You just stand up a lot more (and subconsciously).

I eventually ditched pretty much all of mine except the cranks, brake levers and frame. My bars are 46cm Ritchey Streem for extra cranking leverage. But the single biggest upgrade was the wheels. PW stock wheels are “robust”.

TiRed, I’ll see on the rear cog, I’m pretty fit and tend to grind not spin anyway, I’ll try and few rides and see how it feels.

Re. finishing kit, it’s meant to be a commuter bike so don’t want to spend too much but I already have some lovely Easton carbon bars in the garage that’ll likely go on it along with some better tyres. “Robust” wheels are fine too for the moment though if I see a bargain online…

Some interesting posts on here, I’m currently researching a SS for winter road road use.

So far top of my list is a All City Nature Boy 531 build – it’s coming out at circa £2k though with mechanical discs, decent wheels and a good mix of components.

I will however look at the ON One as I’m guessing I could save a grand. Just wonder if it will be as nice or if I’d be left thinking I shoulda bought the All City…………

Anyone owned both?

I had a pompino for commuting and now use a proper track bike (Singular special). The pomp was a much more comfortable ride compared to the singular (as you’d expect), I did some pretty long rides on it as well as commuting, maybe put 3k over a year on it. The Singular is miserable over anything above 20 miles, but its bloody quick up to that point.

I’ve found with fixed it’s less about the frame and components and more about the position and gearing. I run a 48/16 on the singular which is maybe a little over-geared but it’s light enough to get away with it for the most part. The Pomp had a heavy build with standard wheels, the Singular is quite pimp with Ritchey finishing kit. Having done a fair few miles on both I’d say I’d struggle to notice if you swapped the bits over between the two.

I wouldn’t bother with discs on a fixed – I’ve yet to wear out the front wheel on mine after 6k miles through all weathers. Discs would just add weight and complexity, plus apart from Surly I struggled to find a fixed disc compatible rear hub in the correct width – remember on the Nature Boy I think it runs 135mm rear so not your standard 120mm fixed rear hub. For reference I have a couple of disc’d road bikes and it makes sense on them, on fixed you’re using your legs to slow you down or just feathering the brakes down hill to scrub speed (especially when I’m unfit!).

If the Pompino fits you, I’d have one of those with a decent set of hand builts (for pimp reasons) and save the money.

Thanks for the input on the Pompino.

Yes Surly hubs for the Nature Boy.

I’m not looking to go fixed, just SS so do wonder if I’d benefit getting discs?

In terms of weight, finish etc how would you rate the Pompiono against say a Condor or the Nature Boy 853?

Bike is basically for winter club runs.

Finish on my pomp was terrible to be fair but then it was day-glo green so I was happy for it to flake off. I figured if it ever bothered me that much then I’d just have it painted. Weight wise again it was quite heavy for what it was, however on a fixed on rolling terrain you notice it must less – never bothered me and I’m normally the first to start whinging about a heavy bike.

SS – then yes, discs would make sense. Having used mechanical and part mechanical/hydro and now full hydro, for a winter/commuter I’d always go full hydro – personally I’ve found cable operated solutions to require a lot of maintenance which just got on my nerves in the end. That said, BB7’s are much better than TRP Hy/RD’s if I was to go down that route.

As an aside, as much as I love fixed, I hated SS on the road. Worst of all worlds in my book. Some people love it, but I just couldn’t get on with it, even when I wanted an easy day.

The wheels on my PW were unbelievably heavy. I swapped the front for a Mavic Askium that I got in the sale at Canyon for about £35. It’s over a pound lighter than the standard wheel!
Still haven’t got round to sorting a rear wheel yet though.

Thanks Flange why is it that you hate SS on the road and feel it’s the worst of all worlds?

On a fixed, you get the ‘flywheel’ effect – once you’re on top of the gear it takes little effort to keep it up to speed (unless you’re a certain Cervelo timetrialist off of this forum who pushes a mental gear and does mental tt times!). On the flat it’s quite easy to sit there spinning along enjoying the view, benefitting from being ‘pushed’ along (for want of a better phrase) which you don’t get with a SS setup. I found when riding SS (and especially after riding fixed) I’d be out the saddle sprinting everywhere or sat down coasting – it felt like the wrong gear everywhere. Obviously it’s different strokes for different folks – years ago I did have an SS roadie and can’t remember hating it, but then went fixed and never wanted to switch back. I have flipped the wheel round when I’ve wanted an easier commute in (flip/flop hub with a freewheel), but I find it harder work and end up switching back.

Agree, SS on the road just feels wrong and I always feels like I need to change up a gear whereas I don’t feel like that on fixed. Fixed also means I don’t need any brakes* so even less maintenance and weight

*I live rurally with no traffic light, roundabouts and very few junctions and can ride 20 miles without needing to even slow down.

I wouldn’t bother with discs on a fixed – I’ve yet to wear out the front wheel on mine after 6k miles through all weathers. Discs would just add weight and complexity, plus apart from Surly I struggled to find a fixed disc compatible rear hub in the correct width – remember on the Nature Boy I think it runs 135mm rear so not your standard 120mm fixed rear hub. For reference I have a couple of disc’d road bikes and it makes sense on them, on fixed you’re using your legs to slow you down or just feathering the brakes down hill to scrub speed (especially when I’m unfit!).

My commute is hilly enough that i run 42/17 (66″) to gives me a sweet spot of 90rpm at 17mph which is my average speed for seemingly no effort (had 42/16 but it was just that bit too high so at normal speed my legs were turning too slow or needed a little effort to maintain speed). Even with the small gear i only lose out downhill on one hill, but its full of traffic lights and junctions so i never really get over 20mph anyway.

Brakes front and back to save the legs trying to brake to a stop downhill. Might put a disc on the front as ive got a spare disc fork i can use, but need to find a disc-dynamo hub to replace the non-disc one ive got now.

Thanks for the SS / Fixed comparison chaos.

Quote received today on the All City build, BUT I’ve been looking at 2016 Paddy Wagons for around a quarter of the price! Sure the frame on the All City is 853 Vs 520 but is there really that much of a real world weight difference?

Components, wheels, forks are obviously much nicer on the AC but again I’m buying a winter bike for club runs.

I do wonder if I’d regret buying the AC when the PS is so cheap?!

First commute in on the Paddy Wagon following it’s first proper ride this weekend and conclusions are as follows:
Gearing is about right for me, a touch hard for the climbs but nothing to worry about. As a grinder not a spinner I’m not sure I’d want it any easier as…
Downhill is harder than uphill, I am not a spinner, the 42:16 gets to me to 25mph at 120rpm ish, that’s about as fast as my legs will go and a lot faster than they go normally.
The saddle is horrible, it’s already been replace by something from the spares box and another saddle is on it’s way. Within 5 miles of leaving thehouse I felt like I was being cut in half.
Either the bars or the brake levers are also a bit odd, I need to have a play with the position as it’s just not right at the moment.
My pedaling technique is terrible, cadence too low, don’t spin circles, not good. Hopefully riding fixed work help it.
My legs are aching in places they never have before, I think this is a good thing.

Overall though it’s awesome, I like it a lot, so different to my other bikes, a great addition.

I get sore just behind the outside of my knees from extended down hill riding. Never done anything in my life that works out that muscle, to the point I had no idea there was even a muscle there!!

Downhill is harder than uphill, I am not a spinner, the 42:16 gets to me to 25mph at 120rpm ish

That will improve over the months. You need to relax and just let your legs go with it. Have been at it for years now but I hit over 200 rpm down a couple of hills, one of them off road (which keeps me awake!)

200 rpm 😯 😯 😯 😯
That’s some going, fair play. In fairness, I do get a bit of fear as I go too fast, my legs feel very out of control!. There’s a 1 mile steep downhill on the way home that I normally hit 50mph on, I’m a little nervous about it already.

Downhill is harder than uphill, I am not a spinner, the 42:16 gets to me to 25mph at 120rpm ish, that’s about as fast as my legs will go and a lot faster than they go normally.

I turned up to local APR on my Plug SS with 42:16 (proper bike was in the shop), taking turn on the front at 35mph on a couple of down slopes was ‘interesting’ 😆
Not sure i’d want a bigger gear though – getting back up the hill on the way home was a wheezing, grinding world of pain.

There’s a 1 mile steep downhill on the way home that I normally hit 50mph on, I’m a little nervous about it already.

Just keep your speed in check before it gets too high and you should be fine. If you start bouncing on the saddle you are spinning more than you are used to.

Just keep your speed in check before it gets too high and you should be fine

Easier said than done, I suspect I’ll just be dragging my brakes all the way down.

I drag my brake on downhills above 30 mph. I’m on 42×14, so 3:1. I found 42×14 was under-geared for club rides. It’s pretty flat here though. I first stepped up to 42×15 and then made the final jump to 3:1. It’s too big a gear into a headwind, but character building 😉 On club rides, I max out over long periods at 27 mph (140 RPM) – and am hence dropped on the downhills. Furthest ride to date is 240 km.

I found the Kona bars had a very shallow drop, but they may have changed.

35 mph on 42×16 must be very very hard (207 RPM)!

I found the Kona bars had a very shallow drop, but they may have changed.

Yes, very shallow indeed, and a slightly odd shape too. I’ve popped a pair of Easton carbon bars on there for the moment but I think they’re too deep (which is the reason they came off a bike before).

35 mph on 42×16 must be very very hard (207 RPM)!

That’s not 207rpm

48×19 here. Wouldn’t want any higher. Max out at 40mph but that’s quite scary. I’m usually braking before I get that spinny 🙂

Opted for the Kona in the end, the purple 2017 one. Only a few rides in but very pleased with it, the ride from the frame is exactly what I was after and is night and day when compared to the alu road bike I was using. Only swapped the tyres out at the moment but will change the bars. If anyone has any recommendations for 46cm wide bars I would appreciate it, struggling to find any online. Wheels will follow at some point, possibly after winter.

Questions…is there any specific technique for braking bar just picking up when the pedal is at the bottom of the stroke and applying downward pressure through the upstroke? Secondly, steep downhills, what do people do? There’s one on the way home that averages -8% over 1.4km with the top third being notably steeper before it flattens towards the bottom. Spin to your controlled max and then use the brakes to avoid going beyond that speed or try and keep it controlled using the pedals all the way down? I found I couldn’t hold the bike back using just the pedals so sat pretty heavily on the brakes for a fair way down, trying to brake as much as I physically could with the pedals.

On a hill like that I would control it from the top. Especially in the wet. You’ll find your ability to keep the bike under control using your legs only will improve rapidly, though I will often drag the brake a bit too (I ride front only) if it’s a really steep section. It’s not much fun trying to slow the bike in an emergency once your legs are doing 10,000 rpm.

Congratulations on your new bike. I hope it will give you many years of enjoyable riding.

If anyone has any recommendations for 46cm wide bars I would appreciate it, struggling to find any online.

What brand and model are your existing 46cm bars?

Most manufacturers measure road bars from centre to centre, but one or two measure from outside to outside. I think it’s very possible that you have the latter, and if you measure the bars you will find that their c-c measurement is close to 44cm.

As for leg braking, why? I don’t like doing it myself, I don’t think it offers any significant fitness/strength benefit, and as far as I am concerned the whole point of having two brakes on a fixed is to use them and not need to leg brake.

I’m running Ritchey Stream 46cm. Nice and flat tops for comfortable hand resting (and moar aero). Long straight hand positions too for comfort on the drops. Match the forks. Wider bars mean a shorter stem may be needed.

Rode a nice 100 km last night and was dropped by the medium group (going down hill of course). A fixed wheel in a group does keep the surging down when riding through and off, but 137 rpm was my max, 127 for sustained periods.

I brake with two proper long drop Shimano dual pivots. Never the legs. Leg pressure will modulate speed (see above), but stopping a bike, not a chance.

EDIT not the stream but comp are fine too http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ritchey-comp-road-curve-handlebar/rp-prod112175

Existing bars are the standard Kona jobbies which feel too narrow. I also find the hoods quite uncomfortable compared to my TRP hydro ones. They seem really narrow. I looked for those Ritchey Streams but struggled to find them. I like the idea of flat tops for comfort, aero, pfft, I’m 6ft 4, a flat bar isn’t going to help 🙂

Interesting re braking. I just assumed with fixed road the holy grail was essentially riding without using the brakes everywhere, albeit keeping them on there for emergency.

Brakes – is there a big difference in power between a reasonable set of shimanos and the standard issue ones on the Kona which I think are basic TRP?

Edit: thanks TiRd, back in stock on the 18th so will wait until then.

Brakes – is there a big difference in power between a reasonable set of shimanos and the standard issue ones on the Kona which I think are basic TRP?

According to the Kona website, the brakes are Tektro 359. I’ve got other Tektro brakes on one of my bikes and have not noticed any difference between them and Shimano 650 medium drops, but this thread on the CTC forum suggests that you might find that the Shimano 650s would be a noticeable improvement.

I also find the hoods quite uncomfortable compared to my TRP hydro ones

You might find it’s a case of adaptation/what you are used to (I prefer the narrower hoods that were the norm prior to the introduction of STI and Ergo shifters). Changing the position of the hoods on the bars can change the effective profile of the hoods where your hand comes into contact with them, and you could experiment with that.

Otherwise there are levers which are wider, like these, which look like they have the same profile as second generation Ergo levers.

It’s fun to ride ‘brakeless’ and is one of the reasons I like to commute on a fixed – because it adds a bit more interest to what is otherwise a pretty monotonous routine. Actually riding a bike without any brakes attached to it is a whole different ballgame. Tried it for a while but it can get sketchy and it’s not worth it!