Fit For Purpose Laws – Would it still Apply to a product out of Warranty?

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  • Fit For Purpose Laws – Would it still Apply to a product out of Warranty?
  • bencooper
    Member

    Yes. A warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer, but (as they always say) your statutory rights are unaffected.

    Premier Icon zilog6128
    Subscriber

    Yes, according to Martin Lewis:
    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

    Since 2003, consumers have had extra benefit from The Sale And Supply of Goods To Consumers Regulations.

    When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months then it’s up to the shop to prove they weren’t faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it’s up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

    But that’s not all. There’s another piece of legislation called the Limitations Act (it’s the Prescription and Limitation Act in Scotland) that can help you out.

    You have up to six years after you bought a good to complain
    (In Scotland, it’s five years after you first realised there was a problem)

    This comes in handy if you buy goods, but don’t use them for a few months or if something breaks after the six month rule and the fault was likely to have been there all along. Yet the longer it’s been and the less durable the item, the harder it’ll be to fight for a full refund. In such a case, you might have to accept a partial refund or credit note.

    Sodajim
    Member

    Thanks for that ben.

    Has anyone any experience in opening a case of this type? I have no idea how you would go about it

    bencooper
    Member

    First approach would be to the manufacturer – after that, it’s small claims I guess.

    Out of interest, is this a production frame or a custom one?

    legend
    Member

    you’ll also need to get the “well regarded frame builder” to put his assessment in writing (not forgetting that the manufacturer would do the same back)

    Sodajim
    Member

    Thanks Zilog and once again Ben.

    It is a production frame Ben.

    I have tried to act responsibly in getting this sorted out in a civilised manner and have spoken to the manufacture in question in a respectful way via initially a phone call and subsequently emails.

    Perhaps with this latest information I should talk to them again.

    They no longer produce the frame in question for what ever reason so I begrudgingly accepted their offer of a half price frame lower down in their range so I don’t know how that would affect my claim.

    This was before I was given the evaluation of the damage by the independent frame maker mentioned.

    I did try to give them the opportunity to look at the frame as it was only out of warranty by 4 months and it really hasn’t been used. I dawned on me after accepting their offer the 2nd hand shimano hollow tech bb and cassette fitted outlived the frame as mentioned on another thread!!

    I suppose I was rather disappointed as when I spotted the crack I really wasn’t worried. I thought its shame for a nice frame to go but they’re good guys so this isn’t going to be a problem. I took photos of the seat post insertion, striped it there and then and boxed it up ready to send back for them to inspect at their request. Despite offering to pay the carriage to get it to them for their opinion they weren’t interested in seeing the frame. They also weren’t sounding too surprised it cracked either!

    Sodajim
    Member

    legend I will have to ask if they are prepared to do that. To be fair he was trying to be very diplomatic in describing the problem as I imagine the UK bike industry is a very small one!

    Jamie
    Member

    I begrudgingly accepted their offer of a half price frame lower down in their range so I don’t know how that would affect my claim.

    I would imagine you accepting the frame could be seen, on the manufacturer’s side, as everything being resolved. So not sure if you can seek further redress?

    …oh, I am not a fancy TJ lawyer.

    Sodajim
    Member

    Jamie, I am kind of thinking that as well.

    I suppose if they had given me the replacement like they would have had to under their own terms and conditions if I’d just used the frame a bit more I wouldn’t have worried about it. I last used it at Christmas for a 20 minute pootle on rollers as a bit of physio when it was still in warranty.

    It sat in the garage until I swapped the bars in July and rode it around the block to check the position and it cracked! Sods law!

    Jamie
    Member

    It won’t hurt to contact them with your findings, maybe drop a few subtle hints about taking a legal route, and see what happens.

    Failing that call them ****s on Twitter till they, like their frames, crack 😀

    Sodajim
    Member

    Pretty much as the title says really?

    I have had a frame crack out of warranty and so sent it off to be assessed for repair to be told by a well regarded frame builder it was always going to crack where it has due to the design and the thickness of tubing used.

    As it had bugger all use, know it wasn’t abused and was not a low end frame I’m currently kind of annoyed.

    bencooper
    Member

    The problem you’ll have with it being a production frame is that they’ll be able to turn around and say “we sold 1000 of those frames and this is the only one that failed, so it can’t be a design fault” – you’ve got statistics against you.

    That doesn’t mean your framebuilder is wrong – I’ve seen some very dodgy production frames – but to a non-framebuilder you’ll have a harder job making a case.

    Sodajim
    Member

    Jamie 😀

    I have tried to avoid those tactics but perhaps I should amend the thread title here!

    Oh well, looks like I need to email the MOD’s and see if they can amend my user name!!

    do they work like Brant* if I mention their name 3 times they will appear?! *(Whom out of interest after a google I found had condemned forward facing seat clamp slots on ti frames with extended seat tubes as a satisfactory structural design!)

    Sodajim
    Member

    Thanks Ben I guess so.

    I don’t think it was a particular high volume frame though and there do seem to be a fair number that have cracked.

    I was told in the initial enquiry on the phone by the manufacturer its out of warranty but they haven’t lasted as expected. Shame that wasn’t an email!

    jonba
    Member

    You should expect a reasonable lifetime out of a product. In my experience of cracked bikes I eventually got a free replacement swing arm but it took some effort. Initially I was refused/they tried to charge me but I left the bike with them and went back on a (busy) saturday morning to have a chat with the manager (on the shop floor).

    I have got a partial refund for a fridge freezer after it failed in 4 years. It was out of warranty but we argued that an appliance of the type and cost would be expected to last 8. They gave us 50% of the money back.

    Was it a Cotic Soda?

    pdw
    Member

    For what it’s worth, your statutory rights are with the retailer, not the manufacturer.

    Anything the manufacturer does beyond their stated warranty is a good will gesture. If you want to get heavy about the goods not being of reasonable quality then you need to deal with the retailer.

    Sodajim
    Member

    glupton, yes it is a Cotic Soda and pdw me being a full on mincing southerner it was bought directly as there are no dealers around these parts.

    Out of interest just had a friendly chat with my employers solicitor and they suggested any act of good will outside of warranty could well be deemed as acknowledgement of defect on their part.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    edited, thought you were talking about an al frame.

    Sodajim
    Member

    jameso, unfortunately not, much more expensive titanium other wise I wouldn’t be so reluctant to condemn it to the scrap heap!

    *Though to be fair Ti or Al, it should outlive the gear cables so no disrespect to al fames intended!!*

    *my realisations with hindsight only get worse!!

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Just out of curiosity – is this a Lynskey made frame?

    Premier Icon paulosoxo
    Subscriber

    I’d suppose you better take them to court, as you’ve probably just blown any chance of a good will gesture from Cotic.

    I’m certain it would have been better to call Cotic and discuss before starting this thread.

    Jamie
    Member

    I’d suppose you better take them to court, as you’ve probably just blown any chance of a good will gesture from Cotic.

    Did you read the the whole thread?

    Sodajim
    Member

    scotroutes, no its the run out model with the stronger 31.6 seat post compatible seat tube just before they swapped to lynskey production.

    If it was the Lynskey version I wouldn’t stupidly have assumed you were actually able to ride it! 😉

    Sodajim
    Member

    Paulsoxo I have tried talking to Cotic in a civilised manner as Jamie pointed out. I suppose that’s why I was disappointed, I just always saw them as one of the good guys. I can post the emails if you want!

    I hoped they would at least want to look at it for me or think that would be a reasonable .

    Sodajim
    Member

    Can I also add It’s not like I have put their name in every post to try and bump this up on google!

    I can imagine some other on this site would have made a lot more noise!

    I appreciate this thread probably goes against the general opinion of them on this web site. They have a reputation which I am sure is well earned, I just feel they may not have made the right decision on this occasion as we all sometimes do.

    clubber
    Member

    isn’t Cotic just Simon or have they expanded? I

    johnners
    Member

    Surely time for a picture, now that the cat’s out of the bag anyway?

    sugdenr
    Member

    Has the offer you accepted been completed?

    Sodajim
    Member

    Johnners I will try and post a picture later. It is simply a neat crack from the seat clamp slot towards the top tube. Unfortunately its gone to far to trim the seat tube down to loose it. It can be wielded, with the wield built up and a small brace put in but there is no guarantee it will hold unfortunately and its a bit more than I’d comfortably want to spend to take the chance.

    I looked into getting it repaired because it seems such a shame to throw it away considering what it cost.

    Sugdenr, It has completed. I have a new Solaris and headset sitting in a box which I appreciate from a legal perspective may be the end of it. I just would like to think if I sold someone something that turned out it was probably never right I would want to do something more about it.

    Premier Icon paulosoxo
    Subscriber

    Did you read the the whole thread?

    Yes, but I couldn’t see anything about the OP having went to Cotic with details of the frame not being for for purpose, only that it was broken and out of warranty. If I’ve missed that bit, then sorry.

    Just to clarify, I’d be pissed if it was my bike, and if I intended to go all the way, then I would have, but knowing that On One/Coti/Dialled do read these threads, I’d not have mentioned the issues until I’d explored every avenue, I assumed the OP was going to explore the fit for purpose avenue. I’d imagine this thread has only served to get their backs up, and as the damage has been done, there’s now little reason for Cotic to try and make amends, even if they probably should!

    sugdenr
    Member

    Would a jugde find that the new information/facts materially alter the basis on which you agreed your compromise settlement? Probably not, they only re-inforce the fact that the frame was substandard, whether for materials, workmanship or design, and you accepted a consideration for that.

    I am afraid that objectively it appears that you think that you too hastily entered into a less than acceptable deal, and now want to re-negotiate that deal (this is not a criticism).

    I think it is shoddy from Cotic, but that is the deal you made. You could have got a better deal if you had paid for legal advice, but would that have cost you the same overall?

    Someone will buy the Soda off you, what size is it?

    johnners
    Member

    Johnners I will try and post a picture later. It is simply a neat crack from the seat clamp slot towards the top tube

    No need now really, it’d just be another picture of a cracked Soda on the internet! You’ve described it well enough that it sounds different to the way mine cracked, which was what I was curious about.

    knowing that On One/Coti/Dialled do read these threads

    They pop up sharpish if anyone’s praising them to the skies or wondering when stock’s coming in, much more reticent about participating in threads like these. I guess there’s no way to come out well,so best to just keep a low profile and wait for the interest to die down.

    Sodajim
    Member

    Paulosoxo you do have a valid point. I orginly started this thread to ask if fit for purpose is valid to something out of warranty before going back to the manufacturer. It has perhaps unfortunately escalated from that a little since the first post.

    I have hopefully though tried to be fair to them, and nothing I have said is untrue. At this point whether or not it is fit for purpose is only my opinion. Only I can catigoricly know its had bugger all use and hasn’t been abused.

    I was also told initaly on the first phone call when I said it was sods law it had sat in a box for most of 2012, that a fault in the metal would have gone at any time so not to dwell to sadly on that fact which also led me to belive there wasn’t going to be a problem.

    I dont know, maybe they have sorted it fairly. Maybe only having to put £250 towards a replacement half the original cracked frames cost can be seen as acceptable. I was told they didn’t have to do anything so perhaps it is fair

    Sodajim
    Member

    Sudenr its a medium. But the repair is £200 and can’t be warranted so I can’t see it has a grey deal of value now.

    philxx1975
    Member

    I’m lost is it a custom frame?

    If they do not make it anymore what do you want them to do about it ? replace it like for like? Seems reasonable to do so but if its no longer made what do you do?

    I cant remember what the company is called that does Ti frames

    PS I only chimed in because i have a Ti frame and its made by Lynskey and if mine breaks this might be useful info to know

    Sodajim
    Member

    Philxx its not custom just of the shelf. The warranty was full replacement within 2 years, half price replacement in years 3 and 4.

    As its no longer a production model it would have been a 50% of its value credit against a current model, ie a credit of £587 if it had failed 4 months earlier.

    If had had average use it would have gone well within the first 2 years for a full refund.

    philxx1975
    Member

    If had had average use it would have gone well within the first 2 years for a full refund.

    Sodajim

    Mines a Lynskey R340 its less than a year old but you have me worried as you say in your case it would have failed well within the first 2 years.

    From what I have also read on an American Road bike site the earlier frames were literally bulletproof with many happy owners who have put 10’s of thousands of miles on them so they obviously were built to last. The later ones however have had a fair few problems and more than a handful of owners publicly disagreeing with Lynskey’s opinion they make fantastic frames.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing after the event!! 😳 as mine is now considered a later one. I paid through the nose as I was led to believe they were regarded as a premium manufacturer, if i had know all this
    beforehand i dare say i would have gone down the route of a boutique manufacturer.

    Im sorry to hear yours has expired.

    Sodajim
    Member

    Philxx I’m not saying all ti frames are just waiting to crack, with the right strength tubing and correct workmanship there is no reason they shouldnt last a very long time.

    Unfortunately I feel its likely I got a dud, whether that be through a fault in the material, a problem with the design or tolerances in the workmanship being not exacting enough.

    You may have nothing to worry about and as at least lynsky make their own frames they are better placed to revise the design with a repair.

    I hope yours gives you many trouble free years as a good ti frame is a joy to ride.

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