As per title, looking for advice regarding the return of an air rifle collection.

The background – 2 weeks ago a friend committed suicide and, of course, police attended. When they came to the house they found a collection of air weapons, the majority of which will have been within legal spec (there was at least one pistol that had been modded to full auto and one new aquisition which hadn’t been tested and adjusted for compliance so may have been over the limit). These were all subsequently removed and taken away for testing.

Today his girlfriend / NOK was informed that the entire collection is to be destroyed. As far as I am aware no explaination has been forthcoming as to why this should be the case and they (GF and NOK) are obviously upset that (mostly) legally held property worth a not insignificant amount of money is to be destroyed. There is also a general feeling that the officers involved in the investigation were more interested in the firearms than the suicide itself however I accept that opinion is fairly subjective.

Does anyone have any ideas as to why this should be the case?

I think it goes without saying this is not the only source of info we are relying on.

Ask McPlod?

I can see an argument from the rozzers that due to some of the collection being illegal, the collection itself is ‘a collection of illegal firearms’ and can be destroyed at their discretion.

Unfortunately, evidence of criminal activity can move someone in the Police eyes from ‘victim’ to ‘deceased criminal’

It’s not right, but that’s nature.

IANAL.
my parents were in the past RFD holders. my take on this is:
i would email/write/call the chief firearms officer and ask for an immediate explanation as to why legally held firearms are to be destroyed? i would ask for them to be sent to a RFD of your choice for safekeeping. i would also ask for any that were under a FAC (above 12ft lbs) to also be sent to an RFD.

AFAIK know scotlansd doesnt have any different laws under the firearms act other than legal calibers for deer culling that are slightly different to to England and Wales.

in the past there have been instances of CFO’s following their own rules and interpretation of the FA so this situation doesnt surprise me.

Scott – we are trying to contact the firearms officers but it’s not easy up here. And frankly that’s a shite argument that I expect would quickly get destroyed by anyone with half a brain.

MrSmith – I only asked for Scotland specifically owing to the new air weapons legislation due to come into force however I don’t imagine it would make any material difference as you say.

Thanks though, keep them coming.

It is worth getting proper advice on this as firearms laws at the moment are a bit of a minefield.

If you know anyone who is a member of BASC or similar their legal people may be able to help.

Which part of Scotland?

even if the law is changing they (the air weapons) are still under the current laws and anything legal to hold (FAC or otherwise) should be returned to a FAC holder or RFD unless the items are the proceeds of crime, stolen or illegally held.
i would demand clarification and as to what subsection of the act they are referring to as to their destruction.

Contact BASC, Police Scotland are notorious for just inventing stuff when it comes to firearms law!

MrSmith – I only asked for Scotland specifically owing to the new air weapons legislation due to come into force however I don’t imagine it would make any material difference as you say.

It’s all gone a bit quiet on this front, should need Licences within a couple of months but nothing seems to be occurring.

As for the property, I’d engage a Lawyer if you aren’t getting anywhere – although you’ll want to look at value vs cost.

Greatape – SW with Glasgow as the main office.

And frankly that’s a shite argument that I expect would quickly get destroyed by anyone with half a brain.

Indeed, but then the collection would be in the recycling, and all you will get is a shrug and them muttering ‘guidelines….’

Most Police have the brains of a chicken, and will believe whatever is inside their heads.

Can’t speak for anything that should be FAC as that’s going to be hard to reclaim but it can go to a RFD if you know one who will take it. They will charge and as its likely to have bugger all resale value and few people will want it (unless its super rare or expensive) I would be inclined to let it go. Anything legal however has to be returned to its rightful owner . They may hang onto it for various reason, eg suspected of being used in a crime but they cannot be destroyed.
Snags include finding the legal owner, was there a will for example and the fact that they may well want to charge a storage fee after a set time.
Might I suggest that you send a recorded delivery letter objecting to any disposal to several very senior officers in the region concerned and also to the Firearms dept. Do this today.
If there is significant value in the useable air weapons then join BASC and then as a member you’ll get shed loads of advice and even help. Time may be critical as at times Police forces act very quickly, usually just when you don’t want them to.

Been thinking about this.
To get hold of an illegal air weapon takes some doing and the transaction has been deliberate and illegal. ( All right it just might have been acquired from a little old lady who gave away her late husbands toys but I suggest that anyone interested enough in airguns to hold more than one would know full well what they were buying).
If airguns that were over the power limit or were of a design that is now banned as air guns eg Brococks without FAC then the police may suspect that other guns were also illegal and thus want to destroy them. Something like the old Brococks would need to go on a ticket of be destroyed.
There may well be a reason behind the decision that either the police haven’t told you about or that you haven’t told us, most likely because of the unfortunate situation.
Get some legal advice, BASC or solicitor but voice your objections or at least a request for postponement of destruction now.
Might I suggest a shooting forum?
Guntrader has a legal section.

They are quite a few decent weapons, Dianas and such, so as said there is a significant sum of money involved. We have a few local dealers that do used weapons so finding someone to take them shouldn’t be an issue (not that legal ones should be anyway!).

I’ve been trying to find out how an airgun converted to fully-automatic would be classified but it’s not that clear from a skim of the legislation. Having an airgun over the legal limit is a fairly serious offence though (as it’s then regarded as a firearm), with potentially serious jail-time.

If the fully-auto air pistol is regarded not just as a firearm but as a prohibited firearm, then that could be why the police are taking a hard line.

Been thinking about this.
To get hold of an illegal air weapon takes some doing

you can make an air weapon a firearm (in the eyes of the law) by making it over 12ft/lb.
it’s not as hard as you think.*
*no. i haven’t done it but do know of weapons that have legally been upped in power for the purpose of being added to a FAC

I think the point was that while it’s not difficult to modify an air gun to be above the limit it’d be pretty unlikely (although of course by no means impossible!) to unknowingly purchase one in that condition. It’s also probably a bit less believable if the person in question also already had at least one illegally modified one.

I’d have thought that most folks with more than just a couple of air guns would have bought (or have access to via a club or shop) a chronograph and would confirm their guns were legal though.

As mentioned above give BASC a call. They have a legal team that no doubt will be able to help.

I think the point was that while it’s not difficult to modify an air gun to be above the limit it’d be pretty unlikely (although of course by no means impossible!) to unknowingly purchase one in that condition. It’s also probably a bit less believable if the person in question also already had at least one illegally modified one.

I’d have thought that most folks with more than just a couple of air guns would have bought (or have access to via a club or shop) a chronograph and would confirm their guns were legal though.

He was in posession of a chronograph and ensured that all his rifles and pistols were legal for exactly that reason. The new rifle in question was never checked for conformity as circumstances overtook that aspect. Whether they failed due to a different test ammo is worth asking though.

Could we please not start throwing accusations or moral handwringing here? I asked for legal advice and whilst I appreciate that there may have been non conforming weapons (and similarly appreciate they are fair game for destruction if not eligible to be covered under a FAC) that does not IMO justify the destruction of all the property which, I should remind you, is now the property of the NOK. Also, whether or not ANY were illegal is pure speculation at this point as he may well have fixed the pistol in question after having his fun. He was anything but stupid and knew full well the implications.

squirrelking – ok, not my area of Scotland I’m afraid and if it’s Glasgow then the comment re brains of a chicken does indeed apply there. I’m trying to find a definitive answer for you. As far as I can see any legal weapon forms part of his assets/eastate and I don’t see how we would have any right to dispose of it.

When I said takes some doing I meant its deliberate eg buying a spring. Yes a very heavy pellet can do it but modern guns are far enough away to allow for this and they wouldn’t come up as illegal by default. I suspect that 1 iffy gun has rattled the cage of Plod and if it was over the limit a crime has been committed. No excuse to destroy but it maybe a knee jerk reaction.
Talk to the law I reckon, not us lot here who are making educated guess at best about a very specific situation.

Sorry no offence meant to any officers posting here, just lazy

At the risk of being basic – can you write to the police (and call them) and tell them very clearly “please don’t dispose of the weapons, they are my property and I intend to take possession of them” so they don’t achieve a fair accompli?

The police can have a very, very haphazard approach to air rifles, shotguns and firearms.

surely this is a normal problem – often an old guy will pass on and leave his next of kin to guns, and they often don’t have a certificate meaning they become illegally owned. Common sense should prevail if you can talk to the right person. Suggest turning up in person and insisting on talking, but keep your temper!!

I was asked this over the weekend, a friend was clearing his uncles house and came across a matched pair of purdeys. Ive taken them to the local rfd to store although I’ve offered to keep them for him!

BASC may well give some advice, even for non members, they’re pretty good like that.

The advice to request they are given to a local RFD is good, but as discussed could have cost implications

I would say that the first step in locking things down to prevent them disposing of anything in the short term would be to launch a formal police complaint – most forces allow you to do this on the phone, but I would advise following it up in writing.

I think you primarily want to be quoting S52 Firearms Act 1968 – forfeiture and disposal can only be ordered by a court

also in your significant favour here is article one, protocol one ECHR – so quote that too.

Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.[i]

Okay so some clarification has come through –

The guns are all legal as far as can be ascertained. They have been checked by the range he was a memebr of and all were compliant. The case officer informed the NOK last week that the guns would be available to be picked up today so presumably they all checked out.

Today they got in touch with the admin bod who was dealing with things and were informed that they will be getting destroyed under new legislation. This is the new legislation that isn’t supposed to come into force until April, is seemingly getting pushed back to June, may get pushed back again or may in fact never see light of day. When pressed she didn’t actually seem to have any idea what is happening with the weapons or whether they had in fact already beeen destroyed. Understandably they have lawyr’d up.

I’m passing on what has been said so hopefully this can get nipped in the bud before the horse bolts.

My DS and I discussed this, and I also asked our lady that looks after all the property/productions, and the unanimous answer was that we wouldn’t destroy any items as we have to give the next of kin the chance to transfer them to their certificate, acquire their own certificate so they could then take possession of them, or arrange to sell them. The only way we would destroy them is if the next of kin completed a “surrender for destruction form” then we would send them to firearms licensing to be chopped.

Obviously some of that applies to licensable firearms, but I’ve included it anyway given the upcoming changes re airguns. As things stand, since at the moment the NOK can legally own and possess airguns, there’s no right for the police to destroy them.

In your shoes I’d be hand delivering a letter to the local Area Commander advising that if you destroy my property I’ll be suing you.

(Caveat – I don’t know any details of this particular case, but on the information given and in general, that’s our take on it).

Reads as if they are full of bullshit, still needs to go in from to a Sheriff, anything else has an appeals process:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2015/10/section/29/enacted

I stand by my advice to launch the police complaints process to lock it down and prevent anything being done. you could also include the poor treatment of the family by causing this added stress and uncertianty in that process when they are obviously going through enough already.

If they’re all legal then I can’t see that plod have any option but to return them – under the new legislation or the old. They probably have some explaining to do about why they removed them in the first place.

One other point to note is the rifle scopes that are probably fitted to them, often they can be more expensive than the rifle(especially if they are zeiss, leupold, swarvorski etc). If the worst happens and they refuse to hand the airguns back then the scopes are not illegal and should be removed and returned.

Good luck and let us know how this turns out.

Get a lawyer. My mpr plus scope is a grand – the costs rack quickly, I have a relatively cheap setup.

thegreatape – thank you, your insight is very much appreciated.

Everyone else – likewise, your advice has also been much appreciated.

Complaint lodged, lawyer letter written and sent. Next question mark appears to be over the complete lack of inventory taken!

Will let you know how this pans out.

Cheers, Dave

At the risk of going on unnecessarily, I’ve spoken to another property person this morning. They too have said that the police have no right or authority to destroy these airguns.

We can destroy stuff either with the owners authority, or the courts authority, or if it’s stuff we can’t give back – controlled drugs, illegal firearms, computers with indecent images on etc. – as we’d be committing a crime ourselves.

She gave a recent example from up here where a guy convicted of poaching had his licence revoked by us. He also had a moderator that wasn’t on his certificate so wasn’t legally held. We held on to that rather than destroy it while he appealed the revocation of his certificate to the Sheriff, which was refused, but we still kept it while his brother tried to get it on his certificate (successfully).

One difference is that, prior to the take over, Northern Constabulary had more licensed firearms in it’s area than the rest of the UK put together. So our licensing people were very pragmatic, whereas this might not be the case elsewhere.

Next question mark appears to be over the complete lack of inventory taken!

Further police complaint, point out that they failed to follow both Home office guidelines and College of policing approved police procedure

Firearms licensing

When firearms are seized or surrendered from certificate holders, receipts must be issued in accordance with the Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law 2014.

College of Policing stuff has not really been adopted in Scotland so far.

Ah, good point – however the point on home office firearms guidelines will/should still stand.

I would think so, they refer to E&W + S legislation early on in that guide.

Update:

The weapons were returned in full along with an apology and an “is this to your satisfaction?”

Local MSP flung his oar in as well as the lawyer. Turns out the head of BASC contacted the NOK after they requested advice so thanks for that one.

Basically, they are now where they should be and barring any complaints the matter is concluded as far as the guns go. Thanks to everyone for your help, it was more than appreciated 😀

Good work 🙂

This is the new legislation that isn’t supposed to come into force until April, is seemingly getting pushed back to June, may get pushed back again or may in fact never see light of day.

I’d done a search to see what was happening with the April licencing and couldn’t find anything, which seemed a bit odd. But maybe it has finally dawned on someone the enormity of what they were trying to do and the benefit.

I bet though they’ll just soft-start it, and hope that in 5-10 years time by just clamping down on retail sales (plus pressure the UK Govt to put something in about sales to folk with Scottish addresses) that they’ll actually be able to ‘tick’ the licenced box.