It’s a sad indication of the mentality of people in the UK with regards to motoring when so many people say “I wouldn’t ride on this road / that road because it’s too dangerous”. It may well be the case that it is too dangerous but only because people drive outside of the law. With the exception of freak accidents beyond anybody’s control, any incident involving injury or death between a bicycle and a motor vehicle is down to human error. That we accept such human error as being normal or just unfortunate is a sad, sad sign of the times.

That we accept such human error as being normal or just unfortunate is a sad, sad sign of the times.

I don’t think so, particularly. Like it or not, to err is human, and accepting that fact, and then taking action to mitigate the resulting risks is both sensible and pragmatic. Being determined to ride a push bike down a grubby piece of tarmac shared by hundreds of 1tonne plus steel boxes travelling at 60-70mph, piloted by fallible human beings, JUST because you have a legal right to, is NOT sensible or pragmatic, it is at best bloody minded and at worst bloody suicidal.

Tell that to the hundreds who time trial every weekend !

It was a timetrial not a sportive .One against the clock

Yes I know but still don’t think a busy dual carriageway is an appropriate place for an event.

Sportives are a pain in the ass and should be held under BC rules with lead cars and outriders and marshals ,I dont suppose the organizers would cream off huge profits if they did that though !

No need for cars and outriders and even without those there is no huge profits involved. Anyway that’s moving away from the topic.

It’s a sad indication of the mentality of people in the UK with regards to motoring when so many people say “I wouldn’t ride on this road / that road because it’s too dangerous”.

It has nothing to do with my attitude towards motoring. I won’t ride on roads that I think carry a high risk of me being knocked over on, I’m lucky and have lots of choice of quiet roads if I choose to road ride.

It’s no different to chose not to ride a certain off road route as it’s too risky.

Being determined to ride a push bike down a grubby piece of tarmac shared by hundreds of 1tonne plus steel boxes travelling at 60-70mph, piloted by fallible human beings, JUST because you have a legal right to, is NOT sensible or pragmatic, it is at best bloody minded and at worst bloody suicidal.

I agree BUT it shouldn’t be suicidal, really it shouldn’t even be dangerous. It is only because society accepts such a low standard of driving as being normal that it becomes dangerous.

It’s no different to chose not to ride a certain off road route as it’s too risky.

Well it is really. In that instance the risk is all yours, you’re not having to take into account the actions of others.

ps for the record, I choose not to ride on a certain local dual carriageway because I deem it far too dangerous and risky; what I am saying is that it’s a sad sign of the times that we have to accept that danger.

Well it is really. In that instance the risk is all yours, you’re not having to take into account the actions of others.

Granted but it’s about making the risk of being hurt as low as possible. So I ride on a quiet road rather than the A1 to reduce that risk. Asking 120 people to ride on a dual carriageway increases the risk of something happening.

And interestingly, the dual carriageway I referred to above in my ‘ps’ used to be time-trialled by the local club but the TTs were stopped when the road became busier and was deemed too dangerous…

Tell that to the hundreds who time trial every weekend !

Happily, and in a round about way, I suppose I just have.

it shouldn’t be suicidal, really it shouldn’t even be dangerous. It is only because society accepts such a low standard of driving as being normal that it becomes dangerous.

But it is dangerous, because the standard of driving is lower than it could be. So why deliberately put yourself at the mercy of such poor driving? Bonkers.

This happened about 4 miles from my house, and I commute on the A19 everyday up to Teesside.

You never see a cyclist on this road apart from the odd TT, There are quiet a few, evenings and sunday mornings.

To be fair it is a wide dual carriage and the times they are using it, it gets pretty quiet. But personally a road where in reality people are driving 80mph. no chance.

It’s about time these races had some form of traffic control. Big A roads are no place for cyclists these days with the traffic concentration especially with large artic lorries and modern, faster cars, not to mention the fact people in general lead much busier lives and leave much less time to travel around so are less patient. The danger on motorways and dual carriageways is not speed, its the speed differential of all the road users. Between slow moving tractors, speed limited busses and lorries, caravaners, people trying to maintain proper speeds, you have a big game of dodgeball going on as people weave from lane to lane to weave their way through all the various obstacles in their way. There is simply too much going on for people to focus and concentrate on – no-one can multitask, not even women and even the most carefull and attentive driver can miss things and get involved in, or inadvertently cause an accident. Unfortunately cyclists will always come off worse. They’re slow, are not able to manoeuvre or accelerate out of situations, small and not very noticeable, even with high vis stuff on – a lorry will always draw more attention, and cyclists are soft and squidgy. I think self preservation is the name of the game for cyclists, even if it means taking detours to avoid busy main roads, or even considering not doing that journey on your bike at all. The reality is, you’re just putting yourself in a situation where you’re putting your life in the hands of other people who are in a rush, trying to focus on a thousand things at once, in control (sometimes not in control) of 1.5 tons to 40 tons of pig iron travelling at high speed. It’s a recipe for disaster. I’d rather not put my life in their hands. A sad and unfortunate reality of our modern world, but one you can’t ignore.

Big A roads are no place for cyclists these days with the traffic concentration especially with large artic lorries and modern, faster cars, not to mention the fact people in general lead much busier lives and leave much less time to travel around so are less patient.

Fixed that for you.

To those who argued against me when i said ‘society accepts poor driving’ are you reading all these posts from people saying we shouldnt ride on (this type of) road as its too busy and cars wont be expecting them. This is what i mean.

Big A roads are no place for cyclists

This is the issue. Saying cyclists don’t belong on “a grubby piece of tarmac shared by hundreds of 1tonne plus steel boxes travelling at 60-70mph” is all very well, but that describes the vast majority of roads.

By that argument folk are effectively saying that road cyclists should stick to 30mph residential streets and maybe the odd closed road sportive.

i think there is no excusing this idiot of a driver what so ever, if i didnt watch where i was going for 9 seconds on a road bike, i would probably hit a pot hole and end up either in the ditch or under a cars wheels, and as for just because he admited it he should be forgiven what a load of crap, try telling the cyclists family that, you do the crime you take the punishment, total negligence in my view, what if he had mounted the kerb and hit a pedestrian, do you really think the judge would of said the same thing, as for ridng your bike on a dc, if you want to take that risk thats up to you, i wouldnt, theres bad enough drivers on the roads in and around cardiff at 30 mph instead of pitting youself against traffic doing upwards of 70mph, ultimately its the riders choice if they accept the risk or not.

Sadly I think this thread reflects the lack of basic respect missing on a lot of UK roads. Where I live and ride, in Spain, it is expected to see groups of cyclists. There are permanent road signs warning motorists they are driving in a cyclist area and should be aware. I have often had cars wait safely behind a peloton until they are signalled it is safe to pass. It’s accepted that if cyclists are out, especially if they are racing, to take your time or use and alternative route.

An awful lot of perfect, wonderful, skilled and 100% attentive drivers on this thread I see.

That’s a fair point so lets have a straw poll to find out.

Has anyone here ever driven over a cyclist they didn’t see after they were in sight for 9 seconds?

no? Looks like you’re right then, we are all great drivers.

Think about the circumstances. This didn’t happen because the road was dangerous or cyclists shouldn’t be there or they were deliberately putting themselves at risk. It happened because one driver was absolutely useless and should never be allowed on the road again. It’s that simple. If we take him off the road forever, the our roads are a little bit safer. If we keep doing that our roads will become safer every day until nasty, avoidable incidents like this stop happening.

It’s not the road or the cyclist, it’s the driver that is at fault here.

Has anyone here ever driven over a cyclist they didn’t see after they were in sight for 9 seconds?

9 seconds you say? No not me.

smuttiesmith – Member

chestrockwell – Member

I’ve not readd the report and am in no way defending a day dreaming driver but as I said before, it was no place for a race.

I seem to remember it being windy and seeing the riders wobble about all over the place. I can also clearly remember thinking there was bound to be an accident. The organisers should take some responsibility in my opinion as it was not a suitable route.
Posted 6 minutes ago # Report-Post

I havent read the report…. dont worry it hasnt stopped you having an opinion!

My opinion, smart arse, is based on what I saw on the actual road where the incident happened, on the day it happened. I don’t need to read the report to tell me what I saw with my own eyes.

IMO it is no place for bikes for a whole number of reasons that have been covered in the thread. Some dual carriageways might be suitable, this one is not.

You’d never catch me on that road on a bike for exactly the same reason you’d never catch me on a motorbike. It doesn’t matter how able and careful you are, some one else in a bigger vehicle may not be and on this road/ on a motorbike it will nearly always end very badly for you.

It is comendable chestrockwell that you were observant enough to notice the weather conditions on the day, that there was a cycling event on and that riders were wobbling about all over the place and it would appear that you drove accordingly. It is unfortunateindefendable that the driver who drove into the cyclist was not as aware as you were. You prove that it is possible for the riders and motor vehicles to share a road safely; the other driver proves that dangerous drivers impact on everyone elses’ safety on the road. As has been said, it’s not the fact that there were cyclists on the road that is the problem here, the responsibility lies entirely with the inattentive driver.

I don’t disagree with you psling but IMO by riding on that road people are putting themselves in danger. Not because they don’t know what they’re doing but because of other road users. Any accident that happens on that road is going to be nasty so why take the risk?

Think about the circumstances. This didn’t happen because the road was dangerous or cyclists shouldn’t be there or they were deliberately putting themselves at risk. It happened because one driver was absolutely useless and should never be allowed on the road again. It’s that simple. If we take him off the road forever, the our roads are a little bit safer. If we keep doing that our roads will become safer every day until nasty, avoidable incidents like this stop happening.

It’s not the road or the cyclist, it’s the driver that is at fault here.

This^

Think about the circumstances. This didn’t happen because the road was dangerous or cyclists shouldn’t be there or they were deliberately putting themselves at risk. It happened because one driver was absolutely useless and should never be allowed on the road again. It’s that simple. If we take him off the road forever, the our roads are a little bit safer. If we keep doing that our roads will become safer every day until nasty, avoidable incidents like this stop happening.

It’s not the road or the cyclist, it’s the driver that is at fault here.

This^

Double post

A lot of people talking sh!t about a road they have only seen on google earth or at best driven down once.

In terms of a 10 mile TT it is a perfect road for it, as said above its the other road users that cause problems. The death/injury rate of that road is incredibly low compared to the centre of york some 20 miles away or the A170 which come from this road and heads over to scarborough.

I personally wouldn’t ride on any road where people are doing 80mph, but thats me, for those that want to do that sort of thing fair enough.

It’s an argument of perfect world vs real world isn’t it? No one would suggest that you shouldn’t be able to ride down a nice wide dual carriageway on a bicycle, sharing it with all the other alert and considerate road users. but the sad fact is that some other road users are not alert, considerate, or even safe. This is borne out by events. It is unfair, wrong and a shame on this country that this is the case, but nonetheless…

To decide to put my life in the hands of random sleepy, rubbish, careless, dangerous drivers is a decision that I could never justify. Others do, and that’s fine. I work with a couple of dedicated TTers, and they regularly talk of the near misses they experience, but each to their own.

In regard to fault, and blame, of course the motorist shoulders the responsibility. However, it would be more desireable to have avoided the situation in the first place, which is why I feel there is no place for cycling on dual carriageways without maybe closing a lane, which would not be a great problem, given that these events are scheduled for low capacity times anyway.

To decide to put my life in the hands of random sleepy, rubbish, careless, dangerous drivers is a decision that I could never justify.

So never ride on the road?

I don’t have the information needed to decide if the OP was a travesty of justice or a fair punishment.. not sure if creative journalism has clouded some of the facts (the 9 second statement seems like a red herring.)

As for individuals riding on dangerous roads:-
I wouldn’t want people to be forced off roads just because they are dangerous.. as others have said you could argue that most roads have sections that aren’t suitable for anything other than cars..
I’m sure we can find a way to make roads safer for all users rather than accept cyclists/walkers/horse riders or drivers shouldn’t be there
(all the above groups behave as badly as each other at times.)

BUT.. we all know that ‘currently’ roads are dangerous places to some degree so organising an actual sporting event on an open road seems like too much EXTRA risk (I’m 100% sure the organisers take this very seriously but maybe safety needs a huge rethink.. bigger signs,more marshals, closed roads and the biggy – better education for all road users)
Drivers manage to crash on EMPTY roads so mixing competing cyclists with drivers doesn’t really seem safe. (The cyclist will also be distracted by the event he is participating in and not all riders are experienced and considerate!)
Just ‘Driving’ on roads is dangerous! often a few metres from hefty crashes with fast moving traffic.. so very easy for it all to go wrong in a split second (sometimes no fault of the driver).. Just because so many people now drive doesn’t mean we should be complacent about the dangers involved

It is impossible to iron out Human (& mechanical) error and people will always be distracted momentarily (whether that be driver or cyclist/walker etc.)
Is it really a good mix of 2 very different road users..

Also worth remembering that there are very few cycling deaths in a year.
Fixing these ingrained road use problems will take 25 years of concentrated effort from all users IMO (very sensible drivers still find it difficult overtaking cyclists and very experienced cyclists still find it difficult to behave considerately on the roads)

From the sound of some of the pro driver comments here, there’s a lot of STW forum members I wouldn’t like coming up behind me in their cars.

From the sound of some of the pro driver comments here, there’s a lot of STW forum members I wouldn’t like coming up behind me in their cars.

I haven’t read a single ‘pro driver’ (in question) post. Care to quote?

It seems to me that the discussion is more ‘real world’ (in the UK currently) vs ‘ideal world’ (or possibly Spain).

A lot of people talking sh!t about a road they have only seen on google earth or at best driven down once.

In terms of a 10 mile TT it is a perfect road for it, as said above its the other road users that cause problems. The death/injury rate of that road is incredibly low compared to the centre of york some 20 miles away or the A170 which come from this road and heads over to scarborough.

I personally wouldn’t ride on any road where people are doing 80mph, but thats me, for those that want to do that sort of thing fair enough.

You’d be one of them. To say it’s the perfect road is utter nonsense.
I live next to the A19 a few miles north of the accident and I’m surprised there aren’t more killed in these TT’s.

The TT’s happen every year and usually turn around at the Osmotherley Junction. It is not a safe road to cycle on, even on Sunday’s when these events are usually held the road starts to get busy at 9-10.

It is a very fast moving dual carriage way that has several open sections that suffer from high cross winds. If you are considering racing on this stretch of road, please think again, it really isn’t safe.

There will be traffic counts done during every event to determine timings of events in the following year.If the traffic count is too high it wont get used or will start earlier or later when it may be quieter

It seems to me that the discussion is more ‘real world’ (in the UK currently) vs ‘ideal world’ (or possibly Spain).

I commute on my bike in Spain, it’s far from perfect and I get the odd close pass from impatient drivers – nothing I’d class as malicious, just impatience. There’s a grassroots campaign going on at the moment with “1.5 m” stickers showing a bike and car, and the minimum legal separation when overtaking – there’s a reason that campaign’s going on: this year there have already been a couple of well-publicised deaths of cyclists.

On a Sunday morning it’s usually a different matter, though. The massive road-riding culture here means that drivers are well aware of cyclists, are used to seeing groups of them out and about, and the popularity of riders like Indurain, Delgado and Contador means we’re not some alien group of weirdos, but normal people doing a bit of exercise.

I wouldn’t want people to be forced off roads just because they are dangerous..
…
BUT.. we all know that ‘currently’ roads are dangerous places to some degree so organising an actual sporting event on an open road seems like too much EXTRA risk

So that’s basically ALL organised road cycling events in the UK, except the tiny handful that are held on closed roads?

You’d be one of them. To say it’s the perfect road is utter nonsense.
I live next to the A19 a few miles north of the accident and I’m surprised there aren’t more killed in these TT’s.

I can see the road right now from my house. the accident site with a telescope.

The road its self is spot on, dead straight, smooth tarmac.

If you had read my post just past the part you highlighted you’d have seen my point that its the other users that’s the problem, A road doesn’t kill people, morons driving to fast without due care do.

Even Audaxes ?

A road doesn’t kill people, morons driving to fast without due care do.

This is true, but it’s equally true to say that riding on roads shared with said morons can get you killed. It wouldn’t be your fault, but you’d still be dead.

v8ninety – Member

A road doesn’t kill people, morons driving to fast without due care do.

This is true, but it’s equally true to say that riding on roads shared with said morons can get you killed. It wouldn’t be your fault, but you’d still be dead.

Which has been my point from the start.

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