I am getting a BMW as a Company Car in 3 weeks time. Think i will stick to trail centres 😆

True renton

Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway, car indicators seem to suddenly start working, spaces between cars increase and speeds are reduced 😉

I had a motorway accident a few years back in which I was very lucky not to get hurt badly from and it changed my driving style dramatically.

Still remember the police office who dealt with me at the scene, saying an off the cuff remark, "I know you weren't speeding as you are still breathing!"

That had a big impact on me.

Now I am the sad person sat in the inside lane following whatever at a safe distance 😉

Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway … and speeds are reduced

Yeah, to 65mph. Muppets.

I can't quite believe this has managed to go on for so long, but it is quite amusing…..

You CAN undertake; unless you are doing it in a stupid manner you will not get pulled for it.
So, how is the act of undertaking 'driving like a c0ck'?

As for the whole 'hardly makes a difference in time' arguement – that's a load of old toot.
A mate of mine I go riding with generally drives faster than I do. We have on several occasions left work at the same time (we used to work at the same place) and off he'd go at a much faster speed than me. I think it's about a 35mile drive to the car park we'd leave the cars at. By the time I had arrived, he'd already have his bike out of the car, lights fitted, other kit out and would be sat there (or getting changed). He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.

Also on the way home it is a 60 mile journey, I know that if I am not in a rush it takes me about 1hr 25mins. If I am going hell for leather to get home, I have managed it in 1hr 9mins. Which means I can get to the fish & chip shop, buy my dinner, get it home, serve it up & have eaten half of it in the time it takes to just get home had I been driving 'normally'.

As for the outrage of cyclists daring to discuss the matter of undertaking……erm……what has that got to do with anything? Undertaking a slow moving car sat in the outside lane implies nothing about how I would handle driving situations near a cyclist.

I must have undertaken hundreds of cars and have never even come close to having an incident.
Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence – like overtaking on a single carriageway road.

He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.

…and would then have to wait for you to kit up anyway.

So all that extra fuel burnt, stress, anger, rage, pent up sexual angst, furious masturbatory activity etc etc, & not forgetting the undertaking, it was all for nothing.

😉

True – but he does get to whinge at me for being so slow & what he does with this time is irrelevant in the context of this rather heated debate.

Now stop being picky, this is a serious discussion 😉

will undoubtably be because you flashed him, if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.

or if you were on a motor bike, indicate left as soon as you went for the indicate (as that tends to cause brown leathers)

i wouldnt have been doing 60 though, but stop being an impatient tool?

were you in an audi?

FYI, "european" for "i wish to be going faster than you but you are in my way" is to put your right (or in thier case left) indicator on.

and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)

if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.

Having admitted to two undesirable driving traits, would you also admit to finding yourself in a position where you were in the right lane of a motorway with the lane on your left empty such that you could move over?

I'm not reading all that!

Someone sumarise.

Oh and from the very first thread – why didn't you judge speed up and nudge him with your bumper? Bet he would have moved then 😉

Olly – Member
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)

Mine are unless i pay volvo a lot of money to turn them off. I can even scan and post the bit in the FM if you want.

From the highway code – note the wording is different to how it used to be

# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

Do you think people driving similar levels of cars to BMW (eg Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Porsche) also complain about "BMW drivers" constantly?

Smacks of envy imo.

(ps I don't even drive, let alone own a BMW)

Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence – like overtaking on a single carriageway road.

What is this "AIM" to which you refer? ;-)?

Yes, the IAM encourage use of headlights, for one purpose and one purpose ONLY, as the Highway Code says, to alert someone to your presence, that does not include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".

that does not include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".

Though if they continue to sit there with an empty left lane after the first time you've flashed to say "I am here", the only logical conclusion is that they didn't notice the first time, so it's perfectly reasonable to try and help them notice you again. What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code?

Its a real shame that Top Gear don't find some way of making good driving techniques fashionable.

What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code?

No 'secret code' 🙂 it comes down to the 'reasonableness' test, as set out in section 3 Road Traffic Act 1988.

"when the driving falls below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and careful driver in all circumstances of the case"

That 'test' is an objective one there is no 'exact' definition. Failing to observe the Highway Code (the basic rules of the road) is not an offence in itself but may constitute evidence of careless or dangerous driving.

So take a couple of examples:

I'm sat in Lane 1 in an umarked car doing 56 with the heavies, one of which has moved out to Lane 2 to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.

That's intimidation. He would get a pull, words of advice and dependant upon attitude and other checks possibly a FPN, possibly a summons even dependant upon aggrivating factors (wet road, weather conditions etc).

Same situation but Lane 2 is clear, vehicle is cruising in Lane 3 at below 70, failing to keep to the left as per HC (Rule 265) vehicle approaching doing 70 in Lane 3 gives one long (4-5 second) flash to alert driver in Lane 3 who see's him in his mirror and moves to Lane 2.

If he doesn't move to Lane 2? Hang back, leaving at least two seconds, more in the wet. Look at the manner of driving, can you see them looking in their mirror? Are they being deliberately obstructive or have they not seen you? If the latter, try another long head lamp flash. If still don't move, if for some reason they are being deliberately obstructive, DON'T rise to the challenge, rise above it. Move into Lane 2 yourself perhaps, hang back and wait for them to move over.

Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.

That's intimidation.
Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.

Got a better example?

I take it you are a rozzer then analogue andy?

Is undertaking justified then?

Renton – have to admit over the last 25+ years of driving motorbikes and cars that I have undertook more than once, but it does lead to the situation you found yourself in more often than is acceptable. So now I'm older and wiser I dont do it anymore and thats from experience, better to bide your time.

I will also share with you a true story which happened to me about one year ago.

I was driving south on the M74 a night on a Sunday with all the family on board (in a BMW saloon btw!), the motorway was very empty as it was late evening. There was a large pick up truck with a crew cab cruising down the outside lane at about 60mph. After a while I gave him a polite short single flash to remind him of correct procedure to pull over to inside lane.

He immediately rammed on his brakes and whilst swerving all over the road he eventually stopped in the middle of the two lane motorway on a sweeping right hand turn!! I am now stopped behind him after an emergency stop on a turn, on a motorway, at night, with my wife and kids in the car. He then engages reverse and the window at the back starts to wind down. There was enough space between him and the crash barrier for me to get out of a potentially hostile and dangerous situation, which I did instantly.

All that from a "friendly" flash, and no speeding or tailgaiting..very scary. I didnt have time to get his number needless to say.

Its not worth it.

I have since changed what was a inconspicous dark blue beemer to a bright red one (bought it for the diesel engine not the colour) with tinted windows and its very noticeable how much people cut you up just because of the car.

2 Audis almost killed me tonight. Both driven by women.

One rounded a corner on my side of the road and had to swerve to avoid me.

The other approached a give way junction and shot straight out.

Both times I had to perform an emergency stop.

F*cking ar$eholes.

I'd say there are a number of people who drive flash cars think they can get away with obnoxious driving because there car is 'the ultimate driving machine' and will be able to make up for their poor driving by being well engineered, good brakes, engine etc.

If there was no traffic in the middle lane for 1/2 mile or so, what was the OP doing in the outside lane in the first place? I "undertake" all the time but without all the flashing lights fuss… just have to keep your wits about you, daresay I'll get pulled one day.
TJ – my experience is that cyclists are the worst drivers, my brother said he didn't care if he got a ban because he cycled almost everywhere anyway

Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.

That was the point exactly, the flashing cannot be taken in isolation but needs to be put into context. How the flash is delivered matters.

Another example then,

I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.

It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.

Another example: I often use a head-lamp flash as a warning when I'm about to overtake a wide vehicle / van with no interior mirror / more than one vehicle on a single carriageway road – again to help alert them to my presence.

It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.

We're agreed then that if you keep a safe gap it's not intimidatory, so nothing to do with the flashing, just whether you're otherwise driving as a c*ck. Good – you won't be pulling me over then (at least not for that 😉 )

I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.

You still have time to correct that.

TandemJeremy – Member

Is undertaking justified then?

Would take too long to explain the rare circumstances when overtaking on the left is permitted, with care, but no, 'undertaking' is not.

'Undertaking' is a very apt name for it. People don't expect to be passed on the inside and, if they do pull across, the 'undertaker' is at fault.

Far better as I already said, to hang back for a few seconds, avoid the conflict and invariably it sorts itself out.

Back to renton and his rush to get to work, he may save a few minutes (does he run from the house to the car and from the car park to his place of work I wonder?) but is it really worth it? Better to leave on time to arrive on time than leave late and never get there.

Shaving just a few mph off your speed makes a huge difference in terms of safety and your ability to control things but little real difference to journey times.

An average 35 mile commute. How much time would you save doing it at an average 80mph as opposed to an average 65mph? (Clue 6 minutes)

Back to TJs associated 'why' thread. 3,000 are killed on the roads every year, 250,000 seriously injured ('serious' means life changing). Everyone knows someone (if not themselves) who's been affected by an event on the roads. Road deaths are the biggest killer of under 25 year old males. Almost all of those deaths and serious injuries are down to the human behind the wheel (they are not "accidents") they are caused by a deliberate act or by deliberately not paying sufficent attention and are entirely preventable.

B.A.Nana – Member

I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.

You still have time to correct that.

Too late, and it's too late. You know what I meant 😉

Thanks for that Andy – so that is pretty much what I said. I just can't believe how many folk think undertaking is justifiable – on this and the other thread.

Oh – and to average 80 you need to spend a lot of time above 100 to make up for the time you are at 60 mph

*shakes head*

aracer – Member

It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.

We're agreed then that if you keep a safe gap it's not intimidatory, so nothing to do with the flashing, just whether you're otherwise driving as a c*ck. Good – you won't be pulling me over then (at least not for that )

We're not agreed at all I'm afraid. Qualify 'repeated' for me? How many times and how often? Have they seen you and are being deliberately obstructive? How can you tell?

As already said, if you know they've seen you and are being deliberately obstructive the answer is not to sit there repeatedly flashing them, even if you are sat at what you might consider a 'safe distance'. Drop back further, into Lane 2 if it's clear and let them move over. They won't stay out in Lane 3 for ever.

Indeed it is Andy.
For me, I probably drove like Renton when I had a company car, everything paid for by someone else. Now, owning my car, I drive completely differently. My driving style now has a direct impact on my insurance, amount of fuel I use, wear and tear and therefore ultimately, cash in my pocket. Some people say it's about becoming older and wiser, but for me, my driving style changed dramatically on losing the company car I had from aged 19 to 29.

As already said, if you know they've seen you

How can you possibly know? More to the point, if you're talking about pulling me for it, how can you know that I know that they know I'm there even if you know that they know I'm there?

They won't stay out in Lane 3 for ever.

That's where I reckon you're wrong. I have had for instance somebody sitting in lane 2 (of a 2 lane motorway) who did actually pull over after a few flashes. After I'd overtaken them and moved into lane 1 they moved back out into lane 2 again. It only takes a small shift from that mentality to refuse to move out of lane 2 (or 3) at all, and I'm convinced that had I dropped back or moved into lane 1 they'd have definitely stayed there. He was the only other car in sight on the motorway, in front or behind.

How can you possibly know?

Can you see their mirror? Can you see them looking in their mirror? (Head movements)? (I'm not suggesting you get that close 😉

More to the point, if you're talking about pulling me for it, how can you know that I know that they know I'm there even if you know that they know I'm there?

Comes back again to judgement, general manner of their driving not only in relation to the headlamp flash. Plus as said, if you were pulled it would not be 'just' for the flash but for getting too close for example. When you were stopped they'd ask you, "why have a I pulled you".. "You were flashing the car in front, would you like to tell me why?"

That's where I reckon you're wrong. I have had for instance somebody sitting in lane 2 (of a 2 lane motorway) who did actually pull over after a few flashes. After I'd overtaken them and moved into lane 1 they moved back out into lane 2 again. It only takes a small shift from that mentality to refuse to move out of lane 2 (or 3) at all, and I'm convinced that had I dropped back or moved into lane 1 they'd have definitely stayed there. He was the only other car in sight on the motorway, in front or behind.

This is the thing that bugs me with driving in this country is that most people don't seem to understand lane disapline. How many times have you been bhind some one in lane 2 of a dual carrige way as they want to turn right on the third roundabout ahead or that right trun 2 miles away. I have also seen plenty of cars late at night pull on to the motorway straight in to lane 2 even though the only other car to be seen is me and im going faster than them.

AnalogueAndy – yeah that'll be the IAM – I thought the acronym looked wrong. Or, wheel shufflers, if you'd prefer?

So, you slow down & wait for them to pull over?? How long do you wait? I have seen many instances on sections of the A1 where someone refuses to move out of lane 2. Even when people start to undertake they still sit there in 'their' lane for miles & miles.

Must you slow your journey down indefinitely because someone else is too ignorant/arrogant/stupid/unaware or whatever else causes it to use the correct lane?

And at no point did the OP say that the flashing of lights was 'aggressive' but this seems to have been assumed by all the 'holier than thou' brigade.

For the record i flashed him once for no longer than two seconds.

i would class his flashing at me once everyother second for about a mile aggresive .

i had sat behind him for at least half a mile and it was clear he didnt want to move over.

i bet the clio had sat behind him for a bit to before i caught them up.

it was clear that he wasnt going to move over, sorry couldnt see his eyes in the mirror as a, i wasnt close enough and b, it was dark.

Alot of people are making the link between speed and safety, which is fair enough, but what about the link between awareness and saftey?

Surely doing 80 mph, using your mirrors, aware of whats going on around you is safer that doing 65 mph in the middle lane completely oblivious to every thing around you??

As 2 who middle lane hoggs, its all types of cars. However the difference is that people in BM's, Mercs, Range Rovers etc for some reason take a lot more offence when you point out what a d!ck they are being