And how exactly have I done that?

It also doesn’t mean healthy, stamina doesn’t help those blocked up arteries, high blood pressure and all sorts of other negative effects of being fat for years.

Apparently overwirght people love having the negative health effects of their weight explained to them as if they were completely unaware.
I suppose we live in a ‘post Clarkson’ age of the oaf, where spiteful **** can bless us all with their insights and ignore the effect their own witterings have on people.

The thing is most overweight people didn’t actively choose to be overweight, a mixture of factors can land them in the situation of having a higher than ideal BMI and limited time/resources to address it. Repeatedly telling them where they’re going wrong isn’t as helpful as you seem to think… Is “Fatsplaining” a term? it probably should be…

Do you talk like that to any overweight people you encounter in real life?

Did they tell you it was controversial or did you decide that yourself?

If those billboards etc are genuine it’ll be pretty controversial, I can see the ASA fielding a lot of paper work.

The name, even just in the forum title makes me wince.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/10/obese-patients-weight-shamed-doctors-nurses?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Is it weight shaming when medical professionals do it or is it unwanted advice?

It may not always be the obese person’s fault directly, but it’s their fault more than it’s anyone else’s

Obesity is quite common in victims of sexual abuse

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/12/sexual-abuse-victims-obesity/420186/

Sexual Abuse and Obesity – What’s the link?

I’m just leaving this here and going to eat some cake…

The red lines here show you that being "overweight" can put you at a LOWER risk of dying than being a "normal" or "healthy" weight. I'm using quote marks cos I don't think these labels are mostly trash. pic.twitter.com/7pvO7k58H2

— Mona Chalabi (@MonaChalabi) August 3, 2022

Is it weight shaming when medical professionals do it or is it unwanted advice?

Guess it depends. Being a Dr might not mean being tactful or appreciating how poorly our society works for many and why it’s such a big cause of weight gain (I’d expect most Drs see enough and are smart enough but still, only human)

Do you talk like that to any overweight people you encounter in real life?

I talk to people in real life exactly as I ‘talk’ to people on this forum. But again, as you keep missing the point (yes I would say that to your face) my comment was aimed solely at the comment that someone who is overweight has stamina.

I am not telling anyone anything, I am not fatsplaining anything, just countering the odd comment about stamina. And when you think about it the same person with less weight would likely have even more stamina as they have less weight to move about.

Try and calm down a bit and stop reading things (completely incorrectly) into what I am posting please.

Here you go:

A far calmer, more succinct summary of some of the issues facing an overweight cyclist, he even mentions FLAB.

I like the chap…

I remember them baffling the Dragons on telly. “What’s it called?!” exclaimed the skinny woman who didn’t get it at all 😆

A far calmer, more succinct summary of some of the issues facing an overweight cyclist, he even mentions FLAB.

I like the chap…

That was really great (he references Fat Lad at the Back too). The 2 links I posted at the start of the thread are worth a look also, Shimano and Salsa seem to be onboard. Perhaps we need some involvement from various national cycling organisations to make it more inclusive (I’m not overweight myself, but have a bad heart and dreadful mental health and cycling’s been great for me on both counts).

Hopefully more people cycling will help the nation’s health and perhaps drive forward the impetus for better cycling infrastructure.

(I’m not overweight but have a bad heart and dreadful mental health and cycling’s been great for me on both counts).

Same here, but still think Fat Lad at the Back is a shit brand name. It’s not for me. And anyway, its for fat roadies… I’ve never heard the phrase in reference to mountain bikers.

The thing is most overweight people didn’t actively choose to be overweight, a mixture of factors can land them in the situation of having a higher than ideal BMI and limited time/resources to address it.

True but these people didn’t wake up overweight one morning. It went on gradually. Eating more than energy expended.

Lack of will power prevented them doing something about it.

Eat less. Exercise more.
There is no secret.
I do say this to people if they need advice.

@kayak23

Calling someone obese, medicalises her body shape, and overweight suggests that there is an ideal weight, which she didn’t agree with.

She can disagree all she likes – but there’s medically an ideal weight range that works for 95% of people and comes with better health outcomes at lower cost to society.

But I’m 100% behind the fact that everyone is living in an obeseogenic environment. That’s why 75% of us weigh more than we should do. But we ain’t doing anything about it – if government legislated that only healthy “actual food” was legal to sell then we’d be up in arms. As it is – lots of us are up in arms for them to “do something” – as long as it doesn’t mean telling us what to eat…

/shrug.

Eat less. Exercise more.
There is no secret.
I do say this to people if they need advice.

And do they say, ‘Thanks, I can’t believe I never thought of that before and I can’t believe no one else has ever explained to me it’s as simple as eating less and moving more!’

Or do they say, ‘**** off!’

And then do you say, ‘Fat people are always so rude, it must be because they’re fat.’

Lack of will power is stated as if that’s an option. For some, that is a very real manifestation of poor mental health which in turn can be a manifestation of other issues from the past.

Simply saying people are fat because they lack will power might be correct but is not necessarily helpful. If you could bottle will power and sell it you’d be very rich!

@sandwich

Fat doesn’t mean unfit.

Sorry, but yes it does. It’s just fit doesn’t mean “I can ride 100 miles in a really good time”.

Overweight = lots of poor medical outcomes. Being fat is an actual medical issue.

I’m a bit fat too. But I never want to lie to myself about it.

and @cookeaa

Was that your “Mike drop moment”?
That it’s still seen as OK by some to shame and take the piss out of overweight people

If someone was hating on you because your fat – that’s not on. However – if you feel shame because people point out medical facts then, I’m sorry, that’s *your* problem.

@johncoventry

Lack of will power prevented them doing something about it.

Sort of. But not really.

We’re not evolved to live in this environment. Our willpower hasn’t evolved to work like it needs to to stave this off. 75% of people don’t choose to be fat – it’s hard to lose weight through willpower alone. Very hard indeed. And the evidence shows it.

However – if you feel shame because people point out medical facts then, I’m sorry, that’s *your* problem.

People do lots of things that aren’t great for their health. Drinking, smoking, not exercising, not eating healthy, etc. Most people don’t feel shame when these medical facts are pointed out to them.

Why then, do you think fat people feel shame when this particular medial fact is pointed out to them?

Could it be the way it is pointed out and the very unhelpful ‘advice’ that normally goes along with it?

@brucewee

Why then, do you think fat people feel shame when this particular medial fact is pointed out to them?

Because on the inside they feel that it’s all their fault and it makes them feel like a fat lazy failure.

Shame’s a really simple emotion Mr. Wee. And it’s something *you* do to yourself.

Being called fat by my friends really helped me movtivate myself to lose weight. Some people internalise it, feel shame and hit the ice cream.

But maybe we should ban the thing that helped me because some people can’t deal with their own emotions?

the very unhelpful ‘advice’ that normally goes along with it

The “eat less, move more” advice? Hate to say it – it’s the ONLY advice that works.

But if you read up, you’ll see it’s not easy in an obeseogenic environment. That willpower doesn’t work in the way some people say. But “eat less” is the single biggest thing you need to do to lose weight – there’s no avoiding it. It’s basic physics.

If you feel shame over that advice, it’s because you can’t cope with reality. And it sucks to be that person (and I really do feel for them) – but avoiding reality because it’s painful doesn’t help anyone.

The “eat less, move more” advice? Hate to say it – it’s the ONLY advice that works.

Nope.

The calories in/calories out thing is bollocks. It’s calories absorbed/calories expended. A small but crucial difference.

You can simply eat less if you want but, if you have the wrong metabolism, you’re going to feel shit, not be able to exercise properly, your basal metabolic rate is going to drop, and you’re going to end up in a worse state than when you started.

Like everything else, losing weight is a bit more complicated than most people think. It’s all about controlling hormones and it’s going to be a slightly different story from person to person.

So yeah, tell fat people to eat less and move more but it’s bad advice and it’s not like they haven’t heard it every day.

But sure, some people can simply eat less, move more and they will lose weight. These people either tend not to be overweight to begin with or lose the weight without the dip in energy, reduction in activity, and reduction in BMR that goes along with it.

I’m glad you’re one of these people. Doesn’t mean everyone else is.

So the growth in obesity in recent years is because people’s hormones have changed?

So the growth in obesity in recent years is because people’s hormones have changed?

People’s hormones have changed as obesity level’s have changed, yes. Correlation doesn’t mean causation, though.

There are a variety of factors at play. If you want there to be a simple answer and that answer to be that people’s will power has been declining over the years then you go ahead and believe that.

Personally I believe that the will power argument is wrong and, if anything, it’s making obesity levels worse because people just continually repeat ‘Eat less move more’ despite the fact that, for many people, it’s counter productive.

So yeah, tell fat people to eat less and move more but it’s bad advice and it’s not like they haven’t heard it every day.

This is why I don’t bother talking about it with most people. Works both ways. Have heard colleagues talking about slim/fit people as if we’re the freaks. I almost feel guilty sometimes for being slim, but it’s not just genetics/hormones/whatever, especially now I’m passing my mid 40s, I wouldn’t be slim if I didn’t exercise daily to some degree. I get the impression listening to colleagues they don’t want to put the effort in. Seems to be a lack of desire for the ability to move in all but the most basic motions. 30 year olds complaining they’re too old.

I am now approaching mid 50’s and I have noticed weight going on much easier.
Probably due to several factors such as a desk job, age, much more available food all around me.

Having two young boys I need to stay fit.

My solution is to eat smaller portions, eat more healthy food, not to snack between meals and cycle to work.

It’s still hard not to put the fat on around my middle.

In my instance it’s purely mental. Resist the temptation of all the food around me.

Cycling to work is the easy bit as I really enjoy that.

@kayak23

Calling someone obese, medicalises her body shape, and overweight suggests that there is an ideal weight, which she didn’t agree with.

She can disagree all she likes – but there’s medically an ideal weight range that works for 95% of people and comes with better health outcomes at lower cost to society.

Aye. I’m just the messenger innit.
She says she prefers to be called fat, than overweight or obese.
I can empathise with what she is getting at without necessarily agreeing with it.
I suspect she is saying that the issue is far more complex than your black/white, eat less, move more crowd like to think, and I agree there.

but you have your shots, and that is the modern media digital ad campaign.

Isnt that how this sort of advertising works. Pay x grand for a couple of posters/whatever and then hope (or do some pr magic) that the press will take notice and magnify it with a whole load of headlines?

@BruceWee

‘Eat less move more’ despite the fact that, for many people, it’s counter productive.

For many people it’s hard to achieve – but it’s not counter productive. I’d very much like to see where that has been established as “fact”.

The fact is, the energy equation is inescapable. Utterly. How it’s achieved will, at some point, involve eating less (80-90% of it) and moving more (10-20%). You can finesse it for different people – but you can’t avoid that basic truth.

Absolutely we live in an obesogenic environment. Absolutely willpower is not a fantastic method because you’re fighting your environment and that’s hard.

But in the absence of us making a transformation in how we live and eat, then eating less and moving more is what we’ve got. And again – on it being counter-productive – show me someone who’s successfully lost weight and I’ll show you someone that doesn’t eat as much as they used to, has transformed their relationship with food.

As pointed out weight issues can just as easily symptom of both psychological and physiological issues as well as a manifestation of (currently growing) socio-economic problems…

Given that I suppose I’m still not sure why anyone would feel the need to relay “hard truths” (in person or online) and make all the same obvious points to fatties; telling them that being fat isn’t healthy or reciting the “Calories <= work done” mantra like these concepts are news to overweight people…

I guess for me it indicates a severe lack of empathy coupled an uncontrolled urge to say something rather than simply bite your tongue, perhaps to prop up your own ego(?).

It’s quite interesting as well that a couple of you appear to have assumed my feelings on this topic are due to me being overweight, but I’m not (currently), I guess I’m just used to considering other people’s perspective.
My objections are mostly based on seeing how the mixture of media messaging, unpleasant comments and/or unhelpful advice from friends (or indeed strangers), interactions with medical professionals, etc, etc have affected various different friends and family who have suffered with weight issues, often as a result of other stress or anxiety inducing things in their lives.

I’ve seen how those people tend to develop a tell tale social defence mechanisms of getting in that self-deprecating comment or making a fatty joke at their own expense before others can get in there with something more hurtful. I’ve also seen how ‘comments’ can have the opposite of their (presumably) intended effect, and serve to deepen the recipients depression/anxiety further robbing them of motivation or helping push them back to food as a coping mechanism…

It’s fine if people need to obtusely justify the thoughtless way they interact with others, just don’t expect everyone to condone your behaviour.

If you’re wired to just take shitty comments from those apparently close to you as motivation to address a problem you might have that’s great, but an awful lot of people (the majority?) aren’t wired like that. And a lack of emotional empathy or consideration for other’s feeling isn’t a badge of honour…

Some real rays of sunshine in this thread, eh?

Think on being polite vs being right (in your opinion), and that tough love doesn’t work for a lot of people. ‘Well if they bully me for being fat, I may as well fit the description’ etc

What works for one May not work for another.

The fact is, the energy equation is inescapable. Utterly. How it’s achieved will, at some point, involve eating less (80-90% of it) and moving more (10-20%). You can finesse it for different people – but you can’t avoid that basic truth.

Sorry, but you’re wrong.

The Basal Metabolic Rate is the key. For many people, eating less and moving more is fine because it doesn’t drop their BMR too much.

For some, if they eat less their BMR will simply drop too much and their body will be battling them in any kind of movement, let alone actual exercise. Exercising will be hard but, worse than that, with the reduced BMR they are no longer in a calorific deficit and are simply maintaining rather than losing fat.

For people who struggle to lose weight, rather than saying to them, ‘eat less move more’ (you can pretty much guarantee they’ve already tried that several times), I would say, ‘If you’re going to be big, you might as well be strong.’

I would encourage them to forget about losing weight and just focus on lifting heavy weights and getting strong.

Forget walking to the shops for now or anything else that’s supposed to be ‘moving more’, just focus on getting strong. This will boost the BMR. They can eat more and maintain the amount of body fat they have (and increase weight due to muscle) or they can eat the same amount and lose body fat (but maintain their weight).

After lifting for 6 months or so their BMR will be much higher and the amount of body fat they have will be the same or less (either way their body fat percentage will be down).

So there you go. They’ve reduced their body fat percentage without eating less or moving more. I’m sure you’re going to tell me that lifting heavy weights is moving more but it’s not really. The number of calories you burn actually lifting weights is very small. The reduction in body fat percentage is done by increasing BMR and it has nothing to do with eating less or moving more.

@cookeaa:

a lack of emotional empathy or consideration for other’s feeling isn’t a badge of honour…

Absolutely 100%.

But the fact remains that some people are so touchy about weight that you cannot hold rational non-judgemental fact-based discussion.

I said this:

If someone was hating on you because your fat – that’s not on. However – if you feel shame because people point out medical facts then, I’m sorry, that’s *your* problem.

And that’s kind of how it has to be. If you baulk at clinical statements of fact and object to them then you become an obstruction to rational debate.

People feeling bad cannot be a blocker to rational discussion, but right now *any* discussion about weight seemingly prompts those feelings.

@BruceWee

The Basal Metabolic Rate is the key. For many people, eating less and moving more is fine because it doesn’t drop their BMR too much.

For some, if they eat less their BMR will simply drop too much and their body will be battling them in any kind of movement, let alone actual exercise. Exercising will be hard but, worse than that, with the reduced BMR they are no longer in a calorific deficit and are simply maintaining rather than losing fat.

Nope.

Reducing your calorie intake indeed reduces your metabolic rate – but it doesn’t ruin it.

You misunderstand the science. Sorry.

*Oh, and btw – lifting heavy weights and building muscle is moving a LOT more. How can you not comprehend that??

Reducing your calorie intake indeed reduces your metabolic rate – but it doesn’t ruin it.

You’re going to have to tell me where I said it ruins your metabolic rate.

What’s difficult to understand here? if your BMR is 2500 kcal and you reduce it by 500 calories you’ll be in a deficit. If your BMR drops to 2000 kcal then you’ll no longer be in a deficit and you won’t lose any more weight.

Sure, you’ll have lost some weight for the time you were in a deficit but some people are going to feel like total shit the entire time. They are then going to have to drop their calories even further and feel even more shit.

Or, more likely, you give up, start eating 2500+ kcal per day and, thanks to your lowered BMR, the weight is just going to go straight back on.

If you think I don’t understand the science then explain why. Don’t just state it because then you’re just trying to throw insults around without sounding like your throwing insults around.

*Oh, and btw – lifting heavy weights and building muscle is moving a LOT more. How can you not comprehend that??

When people talk about moving more, the idea is that you’ll burn calories by moving and then you’ll lose weight because of a calorific deficit.

You burn some calories lifting weights but those calories are fairly minimal.

If you went for a long enough walk and burned the same number of calories you did lifting weights then I’d be surprised if you lost much weight at all.

Lifting weights boosts your BMR. It’s the muscle-building and not the lifting that’s important.

If you actually understand what I’m trying to say here then surely you must understand that ‘eat less move more’ is incredibly bad advice for someone who has tried that exact strategy and failed at it?

Lack of will power prevented them doing something about it.

Eat less. Exercise more.
There is no secret.
I do say this to people if they need advice.

That is so mind blowlingly ignorant, it has to be a troll….

Just in case it’s plane old ignorance, human physiology can make it exceptionally hard for some people to loose weight as their body will fight weight loss very aggressively at a metabolic level. Drop your daily calorie consumption by 500, your body drops your basal metabolic rate by 600 calories – try fighting that with will power alone. The science of obesity / weight loss is fascinating and very complex. Do a gym session of a prescribed set of lifts in a calorie surpless and you burn X calories, do the same session (work load) in a calorie deficit and your body burns less calories, even though you’ve done exactly the same work in the same time! For some people these effects are negligible, but for others they are quite significant (genetics). For some people it’s like running up the down escalator and every time you run a bit faster, the escalator just speeds up…

What’s difficult to understand here?

Nothing is difficult to understand here – what you describe below is an unhealthy recipe for failure:

if your BMR is 2500 kcal and you reduce it by 500 calories you’ll be in a deficit. If your BMR drops to 2000 kcal then you’ll no longer be in a deficit and you won’t lose any more weight.

Sure, you’ll have lost some weight for the time you were in a deficit but some people are going to feel like total shit the entire time. They are then going to have to drop their calories even further and feel even more shit.

Or, more likely, you give up, start eating 2500+ kcal per day and, thanks to your lowered BMR, the weight is just going to go straight back on.

So you’re very heavy and lose weight through calorie reduction. Good.
Your BMR drops – that’s normal. If you continue at 2000 calories you’ll maintain.
If they want to lose more weight, they have to drop more calories. Good. Normal. That’s how it works.
BMR will go down again. 100% normal. You then adjust your intake to your BMR.

All this – so far so good. This is how it works. And you feel like poop in calorie restriction – that’s just life.

Oh, you start eating 2500+ calories again??! WTF? Why are you doing this? Do you just want to chunk down a load of unnecessary food?

Sounds like someone with a food addiction more than anything else – which is not to be sniffed at (again – I’ve posted repeatedly that we live in an obeseogenic environment – and it’s not just willpower and it’s not easy). But if you lose the weight and then start tucking into 700 calories a day more than you need, then you’ve not done it sustainably – which is a lifestyle and diet change that you can sustain for your entire life.

Again – that’s hard due to the obeseogenic environment.

Glad you’re doing heavy weights and have loads of muscle and that works for you. It’s a real shame you can’t just eat less and maintain it. But I understand why not.

So you’re very heavy and lose weight through calorie reduction. Good.
Your BMR drops – that’s normal. If you continue at 2000 calories you’ll maintain.
If they want to lose more weight, they have to drop more calories. Good. Normal. That’s how it works.

Yeah, that’s not how it works.

If you create a 500 kcal deficit you won’t instantly lose the weight.

Each kilo of fat contains around 7500 kcal each kilo will take around 15 days to lose. If you want to lose 10kg then that’s going to take around 150 days. Simple.

Although, of course, it’s not that simple. As soon as you reduce your calorie intake your BMR drops. How quickly it drops and by how much depends on genetics. For some the drop isn’t too much so they can maintain a reasonable calorie deficit throughout their attempt to lose weight (but unless you continually reduce your calorie intake to account for the reduced BMR you’re not going to maintain the 500 kcal deficit).

For others, their BMR is going to drop a full 500 kcal (or even more) in a much shorter period and they will find themselves with no energy, irritable, and not losing any weight at all.

Why on Earth would you expect someone to continue making themselves miserable and lethargic indefinitely for absolutely no benefit?

Glad you’re doing heavy weights and have loads of muscle and that works for you. It’s a real shame you can’t just eat less and maintain it. But I understand why not.

Was that another attempt at an insult? Were you trying to insult my physique and my willpower in one go? Well, it was a good effort but the problem with forums is you have no idea what the person behind the keyboard looks like so you don’t know if you’re actually insulting someone or just making yourself look foolish*

*Here’s a hint, you’re making yourself look foolish.

If you create a 500 kcal deficit you won’t instantly lose the weight.

Some people will start gaining weight as their BMR will drop and over compensate for the deficit.

I had a friend in the gym who was trying to loose weight to get into her target weight category for a power lifting comp. She started gaining weight as soon as she started cutting….

In the end she just gave up and competed in the next class up. Her choices were, cut sensibly and gain weight, cut very aggressively and loose too much strength / feel like utter crap all the time.

But I understand why not.

I think the problem is you don’t really understand anything about human physiology, metabolism, genetics and recent progress in understanding obesity / weight loss. Some people will just up their exercise a bit and cut out the odd snack and the weight just falls off them. These people are genetic freaks and represent a very small percentage of the population. Good genes, from a evolutionary survival point of view in a hunter gatherer environment, will fight like hell to prevent weight loss.

If those billboards etc are genuine it’ll be pretty controversial, I can see the ASA fielding a lot of paper work.

I believe they are down in that there London