ski – Member

Berm Bandit – Member

Personally whislt I don’t condone violence I do wholeheartedly support common sense. Frankly from what I’ve seen and heard ejecting the scrote from the train was common sense, and frankly if a bit more common sense were to be applied a bit more frequently without endless droning afterwards about rights we’d probably all rest a little easier in our beds.

Amen

Those who act without due caution or accurate knowledge gained from understanding, should be at all costs detered from taking any action, for they do not posses the capacity to choose the correct course of action to persue!

If the facts are irrelevant, then the issues are ignorance and stupidity!!!

TJ they (bouncers) dont have any rights other than that of you or I.
so again if this is assault then bouncers removing people from a club is assault and thats where I feel your argument falls down.

If I sit down at the end of the night in a club and refuse to move because I didnt pay my ticket to get in and the bouncer manhandles me out the club then that’s assault according to you.

Trains are called public transport. Probably for a reason.

Yep, that reason is that they transport the public, is it not?

A black cab is public transport too, does that mean that it’s a public place? Or is it private property that you pay to make use of?

Those who act without due caution or accurate knowledge gained from understanding, should be at all costs detered from taking any action, for they do not posses the capacity to choose the correct course of action to persue!

If the facts are irrelevant, then the issues are ignorance and stupidity!!!

I think you might want to aim that at the fare dodging scrote….

Trains are called public transport. Probably for a reason.

Yeah… and public schools they’re the same…

I thought the term bouncer had been made redundant as it implies that a level of violence goes with the job . Doorman is , I believe the more modern term .

TJ, do you realise that you keep quoting/linking to English legislation while arguing about an incident that occurred in Scotland?

TJ – by your logic everyone on that train had a duty to use reasonable force to prevent him from continuing to commit breach of the peace.

The people who say the conductor completely failed to manage the situation correctly before the bigman got involved, can they clarify what they believe his correct course of action should have been?

If I sit down at the end of the night in a club and refuse to move because I didnt pay my ticket to get in and the bouncer manhandles me out the club then that’s assault according to you.

Can you read? How about actually reading what I post

I have told you several times – its a private place the bouncers have the right to remove anyone using the minimum force required. Same s a person has the right to remove somone from their house using the minimum force required.

ScottChegg – Member
Trains are called public transport. Probably for a reason.

Trains and stations are leased and run by private companies from private companies (with notable exceptions).

TJ just to help everyone out here, what legal training have you had? and what personal experience (watching the bill, doesn’t count) do you have of the legal process?

As you sorta sound like you are quoting ‘TJ’s Law’ again, and not the UK/real world definition of ‘The Law’.

The people who say the conductor completely failed to manage the situation correctly before the bigman got involved, can they clarify what they believe his correct course of action should have been?

I’ve seen this at first hand (gobby kid refusing to buy ticket. The conductor gave him three options:
1. Buy a ticket and continue with his journey.
2. Get off the train.
3. Have a chat with BTP at the next station.

Who is “the fireman”

Serious question. I’m confused ?

The people who say the conductor completely failed to manage the situation correctly before the bigman got involved, can they clarify what they believe his correct course of action should have been?

There’s no ‘good’ answer for that. If Scotrail had manned ticket gates at each station then it would have been much easier for him just to continue with the journey and let them deal with it, this way all the other (paying) customers on the train aren’t held up, or required to physically remove the guy from the train.

Stopping the train, then claiming that ‘he could wait, he was getting paid’ was entirely the wrong way to do it. Why should all the other customers lose out because Scotrail don’t have an efficient mechanism to stop fare dodgers?

Those who act without due caution or accurate knowledge gained from understanding, should be at all costs detered from taking any action, for they do not posses the capacity to choose the correct course of action to persue!

If the facts are irrelevant, then the issues are ignorance and stupidity!!!

Not irrelevant, just commen sence 😉

I have done honours degree modules in some aspects of law including assault and similar bits of law. I have worked alongside the police as they used restraint and I have also been trained in legal use of restraint. so yes – I have both some theoretical and some practical knowledge of this bit of law. I understand justifiable use of force and the constraints around the use of force in prevention of a crime.

Its also all freely available on the net to read and its not rocket scinece

🙂

its not rocket scinece

lol

#3 is dependent on BTP having the resources and means to get to the next station (4 mins away someone mentioned, and also the scrote’s intended destination) before the train does. The only way to ensure this is to hold the train (which is apparently what the guard had in mind before bigman waded in), or continue to the next station but delay opening the doors.

so no qualification TJ.

The only way to ensure this is to hold the train (which is apparently what the guard had in mind before bigman waded in), or continue to the next station but delay opening the doors.

I agree, it’s not ideal. But put yourself in the kid’s [position: if you know you can’t escape, and the police are on their way, you might choose to be a bit more compliant, no?

I’ve seen this at first hand (gobby kid refusing to buy ticket. The conductor gave him three options:
1. Buy a ticket and continue with his journey.
2. Get off the train.
3. Have a chat with BTP at the next station.

Those are essentially the same options given in this case:
– said he doesn’t have any money
– refused to get off train
– no point going to next station (4 mins away and his intended destination) there are no BTP there, so wait at this station 30+ mins for police to arrive from Edinburgh.

But put yourself in the kid’s [position: if you know you can’t escape, and the police are on their way, you might choose to be a bit more compliant, no?

Put yourselves in all the other passenger’s position, you know you can’t escape, you know you’re going to be late for where you’re going despite having paid for your ticket, all because Scotrail are trying to wring an extra tenner out of some kid because they’re too tight to pay for station staff? I’d be pissed off.

no point going to next station (4 mins away and his intended destination) there are no BTP there, so wait at this station 30+ mins for police to arrive from Edinburgh.

At which point the rest of the passengers, who have paid for their tickets have to sit and wait, potentially miss connections while waiting for this little **** to be sorted out. Big man did good.

Put yourselves in all the other passenger’s position, you know you can’t escape, you know you’re going to be late for where you’re going despite having paid for your ticket, all because Scotrail are trying to wring an extra tenner out of some kid because they’re too tight to pay for station staff? I’d be pissed off.

In which case, let the kid go.

hardly trying to get an extra tenner out the kid, just to get the correct fare.
Also hardly a problem with Scotrail, more a problem with a dumb abusive gob shite kid.

agree, it’s not ideal. But put yourself in the kid’s [position: if you know you can’t escape, and the police are on their way, you might choose to be a bit more compliant, no?

Kid knew this would not be a feasible option and chanced his mitt,he is also known for being a dickhead. Also the big man is a fireman nealglover

Who is “the fireman”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fireman_(music)

I’m writing to my MSP to ask that to make sure the law protects citizens who come forward in such circumstances.

The poor little babby should be prosecuted for fare evasion and resisting reasonable efforts to remove him.

There’s no ‘good’ answer for that. If Scotrail had manned ticket gates at each station then it would have been much easier for him just to continue with the journey and let them deal with it

they don’t have ticket barriers, so its a mute point the ticket inspector can’t fix that. I suspect there isn’t even any staff at Polmont station at 9pm.

Stopping the train, then claiming that ‘he could wait, he was getting paid’ was entirely the wrong way to do it. Why should all the other customers lose out because Scotrail don’t have an efficient mechanism to stop fare dodgers?

if he doesn’t take some “decisive action” then fair dodger gets off at next stop and walks away “the winner” and all the other passengers have lost out by having to pay when he didn’t. Then the problem continues in the future and everybody’s fares go up. The expectation from the “I can wait all night, I’m getting paid, its these 100 other people you are pissing off” I think is (quite reasonably) that he will be embarrassed enough to get off the train, the train can continue its journey and the young man (he’s 19 – not a “kid”) can work out how to complete his journey, without adding further disruption to everyone else or wasting BTP time by travelling half way across Scotland.

Doubt he would have got away with that for so long if he was coming from Glasgow. He would have been filled in good an proper with some fare paying ned that just wanted to get home.

Then the problem continues in the future and everybody’s fares go up.

This is trivially true. I worked out that the total claimed cost of fare evasion is equivalent to 14p per passenger journey.

Does anyone know the correct way to eject someone from a train without the risk of prosecution?

It’s actually quite reassuring that common sense seems to out weigh handwringing on this thread. Fireman? Someone said Investment banker, although it may have been rhyming slang. Although it would have been more accurately aimed at the fare dodger.

14p per passenger journey

so regular commuters are forking out £1.40 per week for non paying passengers? If i commuted regularly i wouldn’t be happy absorbing that cost.

Also hardly a problem with Scotrail, more a problem with a dumb abusive gob shite kid.

The problem is that Scotrail have no means of dealing with dumb abusive gobshites. One dumb abusive gobshite should not be able to paralyse a whole train full of people trying to get home on a friday night.

Ages ago I thought I’d be clever and buy my tickets the day before to save time the next morning. On the day the conductor wouldn’t accept them as they were dated the day before, despite them obviously being unused and being for the correct day ticket fare. Instead of stopping the train and demanding that someone else chuck me off the train, she just told me that I could stay on but that the station staff would probably make me buy a new ticket. Problem solved, train doesn’t get held up, and Scotrail get their money in the end*

*or not, as it turned out, as the gate staff were a bit more understanding than the conductor, but the point still stands.

I travel on that line all the time and have never heard of two singles costing less than a return. That is a lie for a start. Also, if he was travelling from Edinburgh to Falkirk then why was his single ticket from Polmont to Edinburgh Park.

I smell sh1te!!

The big fella was right to chuck the guy off. Maybe it was a bit heavy handed but the young guy was clearly going to throw a punch until the bigger fella grabbed his hand (and the two of them fell). Why should a whole train be inconvenienced by one wee scrote.

If the young guy just wanted his bag or to be able to produce the right ticket then why didn’t he ask for the bag back rather than trying to charge his way back onto the train. If I was the big fella then I’d be saying that was when the grazes happened.

Does anyone know the correct way to eject someone from a train without the risk of prosecution?

Ring BTP and wait half a hour for them to turn up…

ncfenwick – Member
Does anyone know the correct way to eject someone from a train without the risk of prosecution?

Maybe if Big Man had picked up No Pay’s bag, walked calmly out onto the platform, and hung it on the fence then got back on the train.

I reckon the beeps warning of the impending closing of the doors would have evicted the little cherub from the train fairly swiftly ?

(Also denying him the opportunity to take a cheese grater to his face at home in an effort to claim “compo”)

TJ – you’re wrong – there is no right to use force in ejecting a trespasser in Scottish Law, so A bouncer does not have the right you claim he does.

the only way of enforcing exclusive
right of possession and excluding intruders is a civil process of
interdict; but this remedy will not be granted where no right is
asserted and no appreciable injury is done, at least in regard to
unenclosed ground open to the public. The use of force to eject a
trespasser is unlawful.’

‘Bell’s Principles of the Laws of Scotland ’ 1899, para 961.

Now, back to the train guard – he does have a right to use force to eject a non paying passenger (railway bye-laws, s24)

I suppose TJ thinks that the, fairly elderly, train guard should have used his lawful power to eject the abusive 19 year old scrote, and all the while the innocent bystander train passengers are prohibited from going to his assistance as the yave no “right” to do so 🙄

Maybe if Big Man had picked up No Pay’s bag, walked calmly out onto the platform, and hung it on the fence then got back on the train.

That’ll be theft or robbery according to one of the STW barristers 🙂

Maybe if Big Man had picked up No Pay’s bag, walked calmly out onto the platform, and hung it on the fence then got back on the train.

That may have been an elegant solution, untiL TJ comes along crying theft…
EDIT, darn, beaten to it.