been watching a thing on bbc1 for a few weeks. it is called sacred wonders. it seems to be about people’s faith, in religion in one form or another. and the things people will do for their faith.

it has just come to me that i dont have any faith or religious beliefs.
i believe in my family and my love for them, and hopefully their love for me.

it seems to me that people are always looking for something that is not there. why not just live your life without this great big need?

I’m with you on this one. I’ll happily respect others’ wishes to believe in some higher being, deity etc but myself, no. It makes no sense to me at all.

Aliens.  It’s Aliens.  😉

It’s interesting how much faith you both have in a materialist philosophy that relies on induction.

For what it’s worth, as Descartes noted, the only thing that you can truly know is your own existence. I think you’re making the mistake of confusing empirical likelihood within this world with absolute certainty.

JP

People strive to belive in something, it gives them hope and allows them to mentally switch off.

Opium for the masses and all that.

I don’t even see why I should respect other peoples beliefs.

it has just come to me that i dont have any faith or religious beliefs.
i believe in my family and my love for them, and hopefully their love for me.

you say ‘hopefully’ – hope is as much a form of faith as anything. No matter how much anyone might not subscribe to any kind of formal / shared religion or faith we’re all people who hope even though you can’t really measure the effect hope can have on anything.

Well said Geex.

And I hope people ridicule mine as well.

Faith isn’t just a religious concept though.

Mice not Aliens.

Faith is belief without evidence

Religious belief is just weird to me. I have wondered what I am missing sometimes but having prodded and poked there is no religion shaped hole in me that I can find

Maybe I should just steal all the good bits from other religions. I like the Hindu gods – lots of them – one for every occasion and they can be ( as far as I understand) capricious and mischievous.

Valhalla sounds like a right laugh and probably the best of the afterlife choices – so long as you were a warrior. dunno what happened to the wee fearty vikings that hid rather than fight tho.

In all seriousness the closest I would come to any sort of religious thing would some sort of Gaia concept – that we are all a part of the sum of everything on the planet and increasing the sum of human happiness is where we should be aiming

Those with religious faith can’t have much faith in their faith to have to start on the reinforcement job on the next generation so young.

I don’t even see why I should respect other peoples beliefs.

Well, unless you want to come across as a boorish, insulting jackass, respecting other people’s beliefs is just polite*, and lets people just rub along on a day to day basis; to do otherwise, you risk looking like Trump.

@tjagain, I think what you’re describing is a pantheistic humanist, which is how I think of myself.
Regarding the Sacred Wonders programme, I’ve been watching it, and I’ve found it fascinating, and rather enlightening as well, not that I feel any need at all to devote myself to some faith or other.
*There are, of course, some beliefs that just can’t be tolerated or ignored, and do need to be confronted whenever possible. I don’t think I need to point out which ones…

Geex+1
Having said that, I don’t piss on other peoples beliefs either.

I believe in me.

WTF has politeness got to do with what I respect or don’t respect?
Who mentioned being boorish or insulting or a jackass about it?
Assuming I’m any of those things towards others beliefs just because I don’t respect them actually is boorish and insulting and makes you sound like the jackass here!

@martymac seems to “get” it

Meanwhile, in a far corner of the internet, Woppit becomes aroused….

*There are, of course, some beliefs that just can’t be tolerated or ignored, and do need to be confronted whenever possible. I don’t think I need to point out which ones…

would mass murder under the guise of religion* be one?

Or should we “respect” that?

*religious faith?

“Meanwhile, in a far corner of the internet, Woppit becomes aroused….”
Oh god, no…

Count zero – not really from what I could see from googling that term. Still seems to be too much mysticism and faith overtones with hubris added in.

Its just very simple – the more happiness in the world the nicer place it is to live

My 3 tenets are
“do as much good as you can”
“Do as little harm as you can”
“Have as much fun as you can”

@martymac seems to “get” it

He must have read between the lines.

Always thought of myself as a relatively ‘militant’ atheist (in the Ricky Gervais mould for example). Do, however, totally understand and defend that other people are free to believe whatever they want about magical sky fairies (not the same thing as respecting their beliefs – just respecting their right to choose). I’m also in the camp that think that atheism is as much a belief system as most religions – which technically makes me an agnostic i guess.

That’s not to say I’m not spiritual – just drawn to those ideas that don’t involve a supreme being/beings – taoism, bits of buddhism, animism even (but not in the sense that everything around us has a soul or spirit – more about seeing the wonder in the world).

Bottom line for me is – if you’re lucky you only have about 4000 weeks here and then you’re toast – no afterlife, no reincarnation, nothing. Savour every moment you have, make the most of it, and don’t be a dick.

Also been watching the programme, and from a sociological PoV it’s fascinating and pretty captivating. Generally beautifully filmed too. Has in no way persuaded me that organised religion is a good idea though…

I don’t have faith and it doesn’t really bother me at all but I respect the faith of others because if you don’t then you’re one step closer to Trumpism. If in doubt just follow the ‘don’t be a d##k’ rule.

If you have a faith or belief that leads you to respect your fellow man/woman and the world itself…. Even if “unfounded”, I see no harm. The opposite in fact.

It’s people that have absolute and complete faith in themselves and are dismissive of everything and everyone else that I really worry about. Mainly due to the huge hypocrisy and their inability to see it. They are also in the ascendancy of late if you watch the news.

Get through a day doing more good than harm. Repeat.

If that’s difficult, well….

As for the defined religious side of things? I’d like to think there might be something bigger than us. I suspect I might be wrong in this but I try to live a good life as best I can anyway. Again, where is the harm?

Perfectly put Poop.

I used to believe in Humanity, up until quite recently.

The longer I live, the less I believe in it.

A faith, any faith, IMO should be founded on the base instinct of belief in humanity “good will to all men” and all that.

Yet centuries of these simple words attached together has proven, humanity doesn’t actually believe in that at all.

Religious beliefs, IMO, are there to segregate pockets/groups of humans. They are founded on secularism and not cohesive inclusion. These beliefs have segregated more humans than brought humans together. A natural order that makes each belief distinct from one another.

No matter how “many” humans believe or assign themselves to a religion, it’s still secular however large the group/set/sect.

Agnostic or Atheism is a form of religion in that these beliefs are distinct from religions. Again, as before, form a basis of segregation rather than inclusion.

Politics, a form of belief mechanism, is IMO, a base form of a religion. Secularism based around keeping the “good” to oneself and others who believe, and dismissing the “bad” onto others who disbelieve.

I’m of the belief that humans are designed or destined to be secular, of all the groups who gather together and form a doctrine that doctrine is there only to seek to either improve the small number in that group or make other groups seem inferior or “bad”

And that’s how I see beliefs in humans.

IMO, obvz.

@Colournoise, needs Eulogy to complete the set. We all need to try/strive to be better.

Faith is a concept created by those in power to exert their power on the masses. It originally exploited people’s lack of education to provide something to fear, like a god and hell to keep the peasants in check and prevent them from revolting and rising up against their landlords. And to give them a higher purpose to go and fight their wars for them against the pesky frenchies and the ungodly moors. But now in today’s world where people are generally educated and we know why the sun will rise every day and the rain will fall it seems a bit silly to me. But if it brings people comfort in life then who am I to criticise. Just as well believing in Santa – no idea why he’s less credible to adults than god, after all St Nicholas did actually exist.

So faith is made up and was a tool, and still is, to exert power and control. My religious mother in law is a nice person except when you get onto the subjects that her faith directs, like sexuality for example. In topics like that she’s pretty medieval in her opinions and pretty draconian and according to her, it’s because it’s not how god intended. But you can’t argue with her because it’s her faith.

Susceptibility to religious belief is partly genetic

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147-genes-contribute-to-religious-inclination/

but I respect the faith of others because if you don’t then you’re one step closer to Trumpism.

There is choosing to respect the faith of others – i.e. I think what you believe in is pish and privately I’ll question your judgment and rationality because you do but I respect that is how you are wired so be it and I will act accordingly.

Then there are those (indeed laws to the effect) that expect and feel entitled to demand you respect their faith and allow their interactions with the world around them to change because of their faith. Allowing a Shechita death for animals for kosher meat against all modern understanding of animal welfare would be one of them for example.

The second feels more uncomfortable to me. But maybe you need that to make people play nicely together.

Sandwich

@Colournoise, needs Eulogy to complete the set. We all need to try/strive to be better.

Good call, but I’d go with this as #3…

I( do not get the concept that atheisim is a belief or faith system

Atheism is simply – without evidence it does not exist

If you think  you don’t have faith then you don’t have a grasp of the basic concept of money.

Fiat money systems rather than commodity money systems are almost entirely faith based.

We all subscribe to the mass delusion that chips of metal , pieces of paper and electronic numbers, all of which have absolutely  no intrinsic value in themselves are actually valuable commodities that we can exchange for good s and services.

All on a promise that, at the end of the day, that a central government  authority will make it good in the end if it ever starts to fall apart, which in reality is not really the case as evidenced by the many historical currency collapses that have occurred throughout the world..

We believe that a pound has a value, but this value is subject to change on the whims of an infinite number of uncontrollable factors e.g Boris Johnson saying something stupid.

It’s only the belief that the system works that makes this possible. If we didn’t have blind faith in a higher authority ( in this instance the government central bank) we’d still be bartering with each other for beaver pelts and duck eggs.

Money is the new religion. You all have an imaginary sky fairy as a friend. His name is Mark Carney.

Cracking program thought, Sacred Wonders…. superbly filmed.

I have faith in science. An incomplete but generally consistent set of beliefs about the way the environment we live in behaves. Although largely based on evidence it still requires faith because the model keeps being improved, and because I haven’t seen most of the evidence personally.

Anyone can believe what they like provided that belief doesn’t cause them to act in a way other people find detrimental.

Doesn’t ‘respecting someones faith’ mean you also believe in that faith?
I respect the *fact* that someone has a faith but not the faith itself.
At the same time I don’t like anyone telling me I should have a faith either.

I’d make a good Buddhist though, me & Buddha are the same shape!

I don’t even see why I should respect other peoples beliefs.

Because don’t be a dick.

Religious belief is just weird to me. I have wondered what I am missing sometimes but having prodded and poked there is no religion shaped hole in me that I can find

By far the most astute and respectful thing I’ve seen you say on this subect!

On the original topic.. I’m not an artist or really an art lover. There are some things I like, some I love a bit, but that’s all I can say. Some people though, art (and self expression) is a profound and fundamental part of their being. Their whole lives revolve around it – it is everything, it defines them. I don’t share this but I respect it – I’m interested and I seek to understand, empathise, and perhaps grow myself a little even though I will never be like them.

Faith is the same thing, I think. I seek to learn – both about people of faith and myself. Because the human world is a huge, complex, fascinating and wonderful thing.

What faith is NOT is an attempt to explain the existence of the universe and replace science. Of course, there are nutjobs around, but there are in every part of life. But even then, nutjobbiness is a part of humanity that has always been there, and is fascinating in itself.

It’s not something I understand. To decide that you believe in some metaphysical thing that you have no evidence for, and will never show itself to you even if you ask, and then assume that it’s got control over everything without actually intervening ever, and loves everyone but will damn you to eternal punishment if you commit any wrong doing, just sounds like such an irrational thing to do.

To then use your belief in something you’ve never seen and have no evidence for as an excuse for many of the attrocities carried out in the world, or even just some of the bizarre day to day things, is even more mind boggling.

A preacher I was listening to once said
“You’re all sitting on that chairs and whether you realise it or not, you had faith when you sat down that the chair would hold your weight off the floor. If you think that “faith” on its own is more important that what your faith is in, then stand up, remove the chair, and sit down on your faith”.

His point was about having faith in the right (his) flavour of religion, but its actually a better metaphor for the importance of having faith in things that have some detectable physical presence, and testable effect.

Atheism is an odd word. We don’t have a word for “non train spotter” or “non stamp collector”. The existence of the word shows how prevalent religion is, because we’ve coined a word to show how we deviate from that norm, “non-theist”

Maybe the best word for a someone who would rather sit on a chair than just air is “Materialist” (as opposed to a Spiritualist).

I think I’ll use that from now on, as it doesn’t acknowledge or contain “theism”, and it explains what I think is important about the world, and the sort of explanation or evidence I would have “faith” in rather than concentrating on what I don’t.

EDIT …
Countdown to some spiritualist saying “but isn’t materialism just another religion” :O)

Let’s be clear – having faith is completely separate from using religion as a pretext for being a dick.