• This topic has 25 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 3 years ago by mlke.
Viewing 26 posts - 1 through 26 (of 26 total)
  • Fabio Jakobsen in a coma after Tour de Poland crash
  • mehr
    Free Member

    At what point does an “act” in a sporting event cross into a criminal offence, I’ve always thought it would be an interesting test of the law (tackles that break legs etc..)

    Theres no doubt he forces him into the barriers

    bikerevivesheffield
    Full Member

    Lad in yellow definitely put and elbow out

    plus-one
    Full Member

    It looked nasty 🙁

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    Waderider
    Free Member

    Looks criminal to me.

    weeksy
    Full Member

    Criminal, tough one, but it looks clear to me it was more than just a balance thing and he was trying to nudge him. However, i doubt for a single second the outcome was his intention, not in the slightest.
    That doesn’t make things any better though of course.

    stevious
    Full Member

    I’m seeing a lot of comments from experienced folk on Twitter blaming the course design. Nudges like that happen all the time in sprinting, but on a downhill finish like that the speed is much higher so the consequences more severe.

    lunge
    Full Member

    Horrible crash, and at 80kph too.
    Groenewegen was definitely closing the door too hard, there is vid that shows the angle he rode and Jakobson has nowhere to go at all. Very poor riding.
    Criminal? No idea at all, but I’d be surprised if there was any intent to harm.

    beej
    Full Member

    As someone more knowledgeable than me said on Twitter, there’s a need to separate the outcome from the action. The action has happened many, many times before.

    If you treat it consistently as criminal, half the big name sprinters of the past 20 years would be in prison.

    The biggest concern being raised about this by the people who know what they’re talking about – pros and ex-pros – are calling out the course and infrastructure as being dangerous.

    butcher
    Full Member

    It has to be remembered that in this moment these riders are on the brink of collapse from physical exhaustion. It’s entirely possible he made an intentional move to block Jakobsen, but I also think it’s entirely plausible that he didn’t. Either way, he clearly didn’t intend the consequences, which were largely down to the construction of the finish line and barriers.

    BenHouldsworth
    Free Member

    Difficult one to call, I think the elbow went out to block the gap rather than make contact, it didn’t make contact, but it was a touch of hips that caused the loss of balance.

    So the questions are did Groenewegen suddenly change his line forcing Jacobsen into the barriers? watched from above he starts that move before Jacobsen is along side so possibly not.

    Did Jacobsen commit to sprinting through a closing door?

    Did two riders in the sprint commit to sprint winning moves at the same time and this was the result?

    For me it’s the last option, it’s a horrific outcome and we can question fair play on the elbow bit but at the end of the day it’s sprinting and now and again these things happen.

    Edit. Didn’t consider Beej’s infrastructure comments, they’d have still made contact but would it have been so bad??

    grahamt1980
    Full Member

    UCI have referred groenewegen directly to the disciplinary committee for sanction and he has been thrown out of the race so can’t be that innocent

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Thats **** horific!! Groenewagen should be in alot of bother over that and rightly so.

    If you treat it consistently as criminal, half the big name sprinters of the past 20 years would be in prison.

    True, but also maybe a lot of serious injuries could be averted if they cleaned it up by getting tough and actually having consistent rulings. Bike race comissairs are so inconsistent.

    The biggest concern being raised about this by the people who know what they’re talking about – pros and ex-pros – are calling out the course and infrastructure as being dangerous.

    I think the compressed season isnt helping with so many top riders going to races like this that they wouldnt normally do meaning the speed and pressure and competition for road space is higher. Bigger races are used to having these influences assessed smaller races dont seem to have the experience or influence. I watched the last bit of the Milan Torino yesterday, usually a climbers race it was changed to end in a sprint, massive crash due to road furniture and then in the last few km the riders had to dodge parked cars etc!!

    twisty
    Full Member

    Looks to me that Groenewegen moved to the right to block Jakonsen’s attack with the barriers. I wouldn’t say he wanted to cause a crash unless there was some other evidence to substantiate that, but that he’s trying to force Jakobson to yield in an unsporting way.

    UCI have made it clear that line must be held in the sprint and have been stricter on this recently. I’d expect sanctions against Groenewegen.

    Whether this satisfies criminal negligence or not is another matter.

    lawman91
    Full Member

    Not nice to see at all, hope all are ok, no one seems to have mentioned the poor photographer he hit either, could be just as seriously injured but seemingly forgotten about

    winston
    Free Member

    UCI would have inspected and sanctioned the course and safety equipment including the barriers. They failed and are now quickly trying to shift blame onto the rider. Typical behaviour of a sports governing body.

    IvanMTB
    Free Member

    Don’t want to diminish gravity of the case but please consider few things.

    1. This sprint is there, in the same place for last 15 editions of TdP.
    2. Because it is so fast, probably one of the fastest in all Big and sizable Tours. It is even called loosely Temple of the Sprint because of that.
    3. TdP is first bigger event of the season, courtesy of COVID :-/ All riders are very hungry for racing and winning. So they are taking more risk than average.

    Not trying to shift any blame into them but it is fair to consider these factors as well.

    Also Jakobsen is placed in pharmacological coma.

    IMHO, it is probably the highest time for Mr Lang – the organizer – to hang his wheels up and hand whole event into someone with new ideas. Someone that will show Peloton other, beautiful and exciting courses in Poland not same-‘ole yer in yer out…

    Cheers!
    I.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Hmmm, like anything “criminal” intent is an important factor, and in the moment closing the door was potentially the difference between a win and second place, Groenewegen was doing what lots of sprinters past and present would probably and more than likely expected whoever (doubt he was totally aware who was there) was being squeezed to back out. I’m not convinced there was the level of malicious intent some would like to ascribe…

    I think the course design and equipment point is an important one, set a course up to finish downhill with a narrower course in a sprint and you’ll certainly get a show, it’s a good exciting finish to a stage and that’s what organisers (and probably governing bodies) want. But sprints that end in a pile of bodies and bikes are a worse show, and reports of serious injuries are worse still for the sport, nevermind the riders themselves.

    I think a significant review of the available types of barriering and guidance on the layout of sprint stage finishing areas is needed far more than a kangaroo court for one rider after a serious incident. But then that would require the UCI to be a capable governing body so…

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    The original footage/coverage in better resolution (warning it looks brutal):

    And yep as already noted a spectator looks to have wandered past the tape on the other side of the rails and put themselves directly in the path of Jakobsen’s crash…

    richardk
    Free Member

    From some of the footage, it looks like he lost his helmet during the crash…

    jamj1974
    Full Member

    Whatever the judgement – I very much hope he pulls through.

    lunge
    Full Member

    Do we really want to be posting vid of the crash? I mean, we can all find it if we want it, but posting it on the thread doesn’t sit well with me.

    timidwheeler
    Free Member

    From Cycling News.

    A course-side official was also impacted by the crash and was transported to hospital. Lang confirmed that the official suffered a head injury and is now in stable condition.

    “The race official also involved in the accident suffered a head injury but has already regained consciousness and is now in a stable condition,” Lang said

    Poor guy also took quite an impact.

    mashr
    Full Member

    lunge
    Subscriber

    Do we really want to be posting vid of the crash? I mean, we can all find it if we want it, but posting it on the thread doesn’t sit well with me.

    Seems pretty logical to have a video of the crash in the thread about the crash tbh. See also, big explosion thread.

    continuity
    Free Member

    DG closes the door, but he categorically does not chop his line. Yes, a DQ is appropriate – as this is what the rule book is there for, but anyone suggesting negligence or criminal negligence is a moron. You simply do not decision make sufficiently clearly at 1500W and 80kph to have mens anything, let alone mens rea. The real negligence here (and fully culpable) is the criminal course design that continues year upon year by the tour of poland.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Do we really want to be posting vid of the crash?

    I understand what your saying, there’s the potential for it to drift over into a morbid interweb gawp at someone else’s misfortune, but the video did come with a warning, it’s not like you didn’t know what we were talking about already. so ultimately the decision to click play is yours.

    And I think it really does add some context to the discussion; you can see the course layout for the ~600m up to the finish line, and appreciate the sheer speed involved as well as the behaviour of the riders…

    Ultimately it’s one for the Mods, if they want the video gone, there will be no argument from me, so report it if you think it should be removed and allow them to judge.

    It’s interesting actually I’ve been googling energy absorbing barriers a wee bit this afternoon. There’s obviously a wealth of work been done for motor sports and transport environments and lots of systems available, but relatively little when it comes to other sporting environments. Personally the most I think I’ve ever seen is the odd crash-mat strapped to a potentially awkward tree, stump or fence post at the odd MTB or CX course…

    The Sheer amount of energy in that collision has to be on parr with a fair size go-karting off where there are now significant measures in place to mitigate…

    Dare I say it had the last 150m of the course been lined with something as noddy and basic as covered, lashed together old car tyres (which spnsors can still cover in their banners) to about the same 1100-1200mm height we probably wouldn’t have this thread now…

    mlke
    Free Member

    I thought the UCI leading the lynch mob was poor. It’s a time for calm reflection from the governing body at a time when a rider has suffered life threatening injuries. Obviously they will be a inquiry when those responsible will be appropriately sanctioned but course design etc needs to be checked out

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