I haven’t seen the race, so what I’m about to write will probably be complete bollocks

Oh dear. So instead of actually engaging with the debate, you’ve resorted to childish nonsense. How very mature. 🙄

Care to explain why it’s ‘complete bollocks’ then? Or are you incapable of doing so without being a dick?

Formula one driver who actually races causes outrage.

How strange.

I know; ridiculous, isn’t it? 😆

Care to explain why it’s ‘complete bollocks’ then?

It’s pretty self explanatory really. You stated you’d not seen something, then proceeded to speculate wildly about it. It has all the hallmarks of being bollocks.

See, easy.

And you don’t even have to abuse people to make your point either.

Now, people are getting their knickers in a twist because one driver actually decided to race (isn’t that the point?)! Make your minds up!

The very subtle but key point here which keeps getting ignored is this…

Webber: I turned the engine down and was reassured twice that we would not use the cars against each other

Subtle difference here is that this is akin to a fight being broken up, with Webber essentially having his arms held back while Vettel has struggled free and taken a free punch. Really the act of an honourable racer?

I haven’t taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I’m 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.

I haven’t taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I’m 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.

Pretty much how I interpreted thx1138’s post, yes.

The thing is, at this stage in the season, the only team orders are ‘both finish’. From what I’ve heard, most teams don’t mind a bit of overtaking between team mates(!) up until the last pit stop, then you stay in position to preserve the car and get two drivers in the points.
This isn’t good enough for Vettel, hence why so many people are unhappy.

The very subtle but key point here which keeps getting ignored is this…

…Webber making excuses for losing a race. something which has become quite familiar over the last few years. Fact is he’s not as good a driver as Vettel; hence why RB quite rightly chose to favour him over Webber.

Last year’s championship was decided over just 3 points. Vettel gained 7 more points on Sunday, than he would have done for finishing 2nd. come the end of the season, that 7 extra points could well be crucial; indeed, if we look to 2010 the margin was just 4 points, and in 2007 and 2008, just 1 point. Now Webber, given his results, really doesn’t look like a championship contender (his best year was when Vettel was still very inexperienced, and he still lost), so better that Vettel did what he did, to give himself the best possible chance. Vettel isn’t in it for anyone’s benefit but his own, and that’s the kind of ‘arrogance’, selfishness and single-mindedness that is required to win WCs. Senna and Schumacher were never particularly ‘sporting’, but they are hailed as true greats. Webber is not; he’s a dependable rear-gunner at best.

If Webber really has what it takes, he’d have gone after Vettel (or not allowed him to pass in the first place). He didn’t, and it shows that in that team, it’s Vettel who is the real leader.

It’s pretty self explanatory really. You stated you’d not seen something, then proceeded to speculate wildly about it. It has all the hallmarks of being bollocks.

I didn’t have to, given the wealth of comment and information available in the media. I’m merely commenting on the nature of Vettel’s actions, not the pass itself. But you’d have known that, if you weren’t so belligerent. 😉

I haven’t taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I’m 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.

A totally focussed, determined and passionate driver does whatever it takes (within the rules), to win a race. I thought that was what the sport was all about. Maybe i’m wrong, and someone will come along and offer the reasons why. 🙂

(I shan’t be holding my breath waiting though)

Because winning’s what it’s all about. First is everything; second is nowhere.

Bollocks!

Most famous british racing driver?

Moss believed the manner in which the battle was fought was as important as the outcome. This sporting attitude cost him the 1958 Formula 1 World Championship. When rival Mike Hawthorn was threatened with a penalty in the Boavista Urban Circuit in Porto, Portugal, Moss defended Hawthorn’s actions. Hawthorn was accused of reversing in the track after spinning and stalling his car on an uphill section of the track. Moss himself shouted the suggestion to Hawthorn that he steer downhill, against traffic, to bump-start the car, which Hawthorn did. Moss’s quick thinking and then gracious defence of Hawthorn before the stewards preserved Hawthorn’s 6 points for his second-place finish (behind Moss). Hawthorn went on to beat Moss for the title by one point even though he won only one race that year to Moss’s four, making Hawthorn Britain’s first World Champion.

Worth a millon Schumachers and a thousand Vettels.

A totally focussed, determined and passionate driver does whatever it takes (within the rules), to win a race. I thought that was what the sport was all about. Maybe i’m wrong, and someone will come along and offer the reasons why.

Well, an ability to see beyond greed and selfishness is what distinguishes a hero and a gentleman from a mere winner. 😀

Webber could have put Vettel into the gravel, but he didn’t. Horner got his 1-2. Next time Webber might decide to put Vettel into the gravel and leave Horner with no points at all. Unless Vettel thinks he needs to take every possible point off Webber its a really stupid move at this time of the season.

Bollocks!

Most famous british racing driver?

Remind me again how many WCs he won, I’ve forgotten.

Worth a millon Schumachers and a thousand Vettels.

Bollocks. 😉

Well, an ability to see beyond greed and selfishness is what distinguishes a hero and a gentleman from a mere winner.

Remind me again how many WCs Moss won, I’ve forgotten.

What do we think of Lewis Hamilton; a driver so determined and focussed he was prepared to lie (along with his team) in order to gain an unfair advantage, as well as ram other drivers off the track etc?

Vettel was only able to beat Webber after Webber turned his engine down. Hardly racing…. 🙄

You would think that he would’ve turned up back up as soon as Vettel started trying to pass then, eh? If he did, then he got beaten. If he didn’t, then he rolled over. Either way he looks like a looser, whereas the winner goes home and **** the prom queen

😉

Remind me again how many WCs he won, I’ve forgotten.

Well, that was my point 😀

The man’s a national hero because he raced like a decent human being, rather than a thoughtless machine.
The fact that he didn’t win a top flight world championship is irrelevant.
He will be remembered as a hero and one of the all time greats.

Shumacher may well have one of the greatest records when it comes to results, but his achievements will always be tainted by the knowledge that he behaved like as spoilt, ungracious little shit.

Vettel’s only mistake was to ‘apologise’ to webber. I would respect him more if he’d just turned round and said ‘look Mark, I’m better than you, end of. If you really want to beat me, and think you have what it takes, then do so. If you can’t do that, then stick to being number 2. And quit whinging’. 😉

Maybe we should start calling Webber ‘Pom’. 😀

The man’s a national hero because he raced like a decent human being, rather than a thoughtless machine.

If I wanted to watch someone being a ‘decent human being’, I’d watch a documentary about Princess Di or Mathatma Ghandi or whoever. But I want to be entertained when it comes to sport. So I prefer the pantomime villains to the do-gooders. Because the villains are far more interesting. 🙂

Because the villains are far more interesting.

Look, for a salutary lesson about what happens to cheats and rotters I recommend that you watch this excellent documentary on the early history of cross channel aero racing:

Who ended up in the sewage?

Exactly.

😆

‘look Mark, I’m better than you, end of.

The thing is, on Sunday, he wasn’t. He was behind Webber, ie slower.
He got passed because Webber let him. Some hero.

Well actually, he was on different tyres which were the faster ones which he’d left to the last stint so that if he was fighting FA or similar, he’d stand a good chance of getting past. That’s probably part of why he was frustrated to be told to sit behind webber who was slower (at least in part due to his slower tyres) because it meant that he wasn’t going to get the chance to use the faster tyre and if he’d known that, he’d have used them earlier in the race and quite possibly been ahead of webber in the first place…

He was still wrong to overtake.

He got passed because Webber let him.

Was that before or after nearly putting him into the pit wall?

If its not Vettel, it’s Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There’s more than a whiff of “johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike…” Oh and as if on que comes a properly respectful English gent . 🙄

Hamilton is hardly the most popular person here, is he?

nickc – Member

If its not Vettel, it’s Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There’s more than a whiff of “johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike…”

It’s got nothing to do with nationality 🙂
Fangio is generally considered the most sportsmanlike of racing drivers.

It’s about being a whining, duplicitous little weasel.
Something the three drivers you mention surely know an awful lot about.

Anyway, I’m off to the pub.
If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards whilst saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult? 😀

The new rules necessitate a more tactical approach which is clearly difficult for some people to understand.

With 12 WC between them….

Let’s be honest here, F1 has never, will never be about being “fair” it’s about winning. That’s why those drivers are successful Innit

It’s got nothing to do with nationality apart from the Old guy being British, and the others being Spanish or German

He got passed because Webber let him.

Ah, so Webber is happy to stay number 2 driver, and help Vettel win another WC then? That’s jolly decent of him.

He was still wrong to overtake.

Of course; how terribly ungentlemanly of Vettel to try and actually win a race. But then how can he be ‘wrong’, if Webber sportingly ‘let’ him win? 😕

Shumacher may well have one of the greatest records when it comes to results, but his achievements will always be tainted by the knowledge that he behaved like as spoilt, ungracious little shit.

No they won’t. He’ll be remembered for being an incredibly focussed, committed and talented seven time WC. Which he was/is.

If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards, just after saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult?

Depends on whether or not it’s a ‘race’. 😉

If its not Vettel, it’s Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There’s more than a whiff of “johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike…”

Its a great trollargument defeated only by the fact they are both johnny foreigner

Vettel drove past Weber like a Panzer trying to get the French coast. This time it was not following ze orders.

I think the fundamental issue in the whole situation is the management at RedBull – Brawn faced a pretty similar situation with both Merc drivers wanting that last step on the podium, but he dealt with it firmly and that was that. There’s no real sign that anyone at RedBull did the same thing – messages from race engineers rather than anyone higher up. If Dr Helmet had got on the radio to Vettel I expect the situation may have been different, but AFAIK Horner didn’t lay down the law to either of them.

Team orders (yes they are and always have been a part of many forms of motorsport) will only work if there’s respect both ways, and at least some inkling of consequences if they’re not followed. Vettel acted that way because the disobeying the team to win was more attractive than the option of obeying the team and coming 2nd, ergo he’s not that bothered about what comes next.

8 engines. Could bite a few teams that rule..

F1 needs to decide if it’s a race for Team against Team OR Driver against Driver….you can’t have both.

There has been a Constructors title for more than 50 years.

.

tyger – it’s a race of drivers who are employed by teams. Always has been. If you asked a team principal if they’d prefer to win either the constructor’s title or the driver’s title they would all give the same answer.

I *think* that the horse racing world has jockeys as free agents employed by the horse owners on a race by race basis, which would turn the F1 model on its head. Don’t know of a single motor racing series that works like that though.

Still, at least Alonso didn’t win… 🙂

If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards, just after saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult?

If there’s only 1 beer left then yes, thirstiest bloke wins

Its a great trollargument defeated only by the fact they are both johnny foreigner

but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no, and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly “we” like him, he’s a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a “good man” (obeys orders) and he has a face like a puppy who’s just done a whoopsie, whereas we’re more than happy to have Vettel as our panto villain, and better still he’s a dastardly Hun, he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage, or wear leather shorts under his overalls….

However the alternative is factory drivers full of PR speak following Team orders and very very dull Grand Prix, thank heavens for the likes of the Vettels of this world.

he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage

Best line of the thread for me

“Vettel drove past Weber like a Panzer trying to get the French coast. This time it was not following ze orders.”

You didnt read history then.

Red bull is a team of tits with Adrian Newey designing their car. I don’t think either Vettel or Webber would contend in another car, both average drivers. Christian Horner is a weak gaffer too. They are the team that nobody supports. Ask anyone who their favorite f1 team is, and any that say red bull are soulless weirdos!