Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel, yet has consistently been way behind Vettel in the world championship standings.

Mark Webber has never been a top-line driver. He’s very much in the Coulthard/Button mould IMO – solid, dependable points scorers with the odd win thrown in.

Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel

Hes in the mould of Irvine, Coulthard, Herbert etc. Plus Vettel gets the treatment, upgrades etc.

F1 isn’t boring. There is more politics than actual honest racing both on and off the track. Its the politics that dulls it for me. There have been good drivers too who leave F1/never get in because of how much money they can bring in to pay for their drive directly or indirectly. So its not ‘the best driver in the world’. Its the best car, the best sponsorship and who can hide tech.

So its not ‘the best driver in the world’.

There are perhaps only 3 or 4 drivers in the current line up who are comparable to Vettel; Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and perhaps Perez (one for the future) in terms of talent. Red Bull would not have 4 drivers world championships if they had only Webber to rely on. F1 is about a combination of engineering and driver ability. At the moment, they have the perfect combination with Vettel.

Vettel’s a briliant driver, end of.

cybicle – Member

So its not ‘the best driver in the world’.

There are perhaps only 3 or 4 drivers in the current line up who are comparable to Vettel; Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and perhaps Perez (one for the future) in terms of talent. Red Bull would not have 4 drivers world championships if they had only Webber to rely on. F1 is about a combination of engineering and driver ability. At the moment, they have the perfect combination with Vettel.

Vettel’s a briliant driver, end of.

As well as the drivers you’ve listed, Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Britney Rosberg spring to mind. Button and Massa probably too.

I think what you’re saying about Webber is a bit unfair. If you look back through the results, it’s pretty much even stevens in 2009 and 2010, I think over time they’ve tuned the car to suit Vettel’s driving style more.

OOI, when has F1 never not been (at least partly) an engineering contest. Isnt that the bit that gets all the piston heads frothy?

We will be complaining that cycling has become a medical contest next?!? 😉

Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel,

missing the point somewhat

Does anyone really think , given equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso that Vettel would have won 4 back to back?

it does not answer this does it.

To say it’s al down to the car is disingenuous.

So if we put Vettel in a Sauber he would win?
I agree it does let us know who is the fastest driver in each team but the point is to find out who is the fastest driver. It does not deliver as one has an an engineering advantage.

the difference between the top drivers is the car
No one knows if , given the same car, which one of the elite drivers would win and I doubt anyone thinks he would get 4
If you want to call this a sport and watch it feel free but I dont

I was never a massive Vettel fan but I have to take my hat off to him.

I think on current form he is the best driver on the grid and is set to become one of the true greats – if he isn’t already.

He is the complete package, he combines the single lap brilliance of someone like Hamilton with the race craft and tenacity of Alonso. Its easy to say he only wins from the front but he has demonstrated on plenty of occasions that he can get the job done overtaking when he needs to.

Plus another ace he has that is often overlooked as that his team adore him. To truly dominate you need to build a team around you Vettel is doing that at Red Bull. Schumacher did it too at Ferrari.

All this and he is only 26, he probably has another 10 season in him.

missing the point somewhat

Not at all. Mark Webber doesn’t have the talent that Vettel does. It was Vettel that helped Red Bull create an unbeatable car (Adrian Newey’s genius not withstanding), not Webber. Red Bull favoured Vettel because he’s the driver that has the ability to get every last ounce of performance out of a car, and the talent to know exactly how to make it go faster. Like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton. To diminish Vettel’s talent by suggesting it’s mainly down to the car is to ignore the fact that he is bloody brilliant, and way ahead of the average F1 driver.

So if we put Vettel in a Sauber he would win?

I believe he’d get better results than their current driver line up.

If you want ‘equal’ machinery, watch Formula Renault or something instead. if you want the pinnacle of driving talent and engineering endeavour, watch F1.

Minor point if order Mr Chairman, if he was genuinely on of the greats, there would be no doubt and no discussion shirley? Anyone with 4 WDC’s would normally be considered ‘great’ by any measure but not SV, why?

For one, I was pleased to see more donuts and less finger waving yesterday, made him a bit more likeable.

What amazed me about the Indian GP was how fast Vettel went from 17th to 1st. It was pretty much blink and you miss it. I don’t love the guy (I want to chop that finger off) but he’s an amazing driver.

I enjoy F1 and agree with a lot of the above in giving credit to Vettel, but even I admitt the proessional aspect to this year has become a little boring. At least last year we had 7 different winners of the first 7 races or something like that, but this year the margin between RB and the rest is just huge, highlighted by some of Vettel’s lap times in Japan.

Personally I reckon they should bring back refuelling and have competition between tyre manufacturers like when they had Bridgestone and Dunlop (or was it Michellin?).

I don’t think you can blame RB for doing a better job than the other teams. They all follow the same rules, so the reason RB and Vettel win is because they’re better then the other teams, which is the whole point.
If you want close racing, watch a single make series.

What amazed me about the Indian GP was how fast Vettel went from 17th to 1st.

Problem is unlike the old days when they would have raced, plenty of people in front of him were told not to race and let him go to preserve their own tyres. 😥

What annoyed me was the trick Williams FW14 car that was waay ahead of the competition. Without that car would Mansell have won his title?

I hated it when Lotus introduced rear wings in 1968, giving Graham Hill his second world title. And when they introduced the revolutionary monocque chassis in 1962, allowing Jim Clark to win two races that year and the World Championship in 1963. Booooo!

Problem is unlike the old days when they would have raced, plenty of people in front of him were told not to race and let him go to preserve their own tyres.

I remember that happening to Perez (who went on to give McLaren their best result of the season) but I’m not sure if it happened to anyone else, did it? I may be wrong. I like the way that there is loads of overtaking now. I think it makes it a lot more exciting to watch.

I know this is massively pedantic…

Perez matched Button who gave Mclaren their best result of the season 🙂 Don’t like Perez, can you tell?

Not at all. Mark Webber doesn’t have the talent that Vettel does.

I dont dispute that but I asked about other drivers.

The package is certainly better than his rivals but personally I doubt he could win 4 in a row if they had as good cars
Would he beat Alonso or Hamilton if they swapped teams?

Are you certain?

Let’s not forget that Webber’s had mechanical problems in the last 3 races too, which have cost him places at Monza and 2 DNFs, not really the whole story to say:

If the Red Bull is as far ahead of the competition as some might suggest, then why is Webber only 5th in the current standings? Considering he’s a decent racing driver. Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonnen are in ‘inferior’ cars, yet are above Webber. To say it’s al down to the car is disingenuous. If that were the case, then surely Webber would have been the 2nd best driver over the last 4 years?

I thought last year was good, interesting, this year hasn’t been. Very dull, the successive tyre-saving processions do not make for good viewing.

To say it’s al down to the car is disingenuous.

I am saying its not all down to the driver
I dont doubt Vettel is immensely talented but he also has the best car.

Therefore to suggest it is all down to the driver is disingenous

The package is certainly better than his rivals but personally I doubt he could win 4 in a row if they had as good cars
Would he beat Alonso or Hamilton if they swapped teams?

It would be much, much closer. It would be a lot more exciting.

Minor point if order Mr Chairman, if he was genuinely on of the greats, there would be no doubt and no discussion shirley?

I don’t think there’s any doubt in Germany. And if Vettel was British, there would certainly be no doubt here.

Let’s not forget that Webber’s had mechanical problems in the last 3 races too, which have cost him places at Monza and 2 DNFs, not really the whole story to say:

Vettel has consistently out-performed Mark Webber for the whole time they’ve been team-mates. He’s simply in another league. No amount of highlighting Webber’s ‘bad luck’ can cover this. How many times has Webber had pole, only to lose position at the start? Once Vettel is in front, he invariably disappears. Webber is a dependable journeyman who can deliver decent results, like Barrichelo, but he’s not a great driver like Vettel.

Therefore to suggest it is all down to the driver is disingenous

I don’t think anyone has actually said that.

Kona TC – Member
Mark Webber must be the unluckiest man in F1 at the moment, just goes to show luck is as important as driving ability and having a fast car of course

You think the order to stop a man in front of Vettel who is perfectly placed to exact his revenge with the opportunity for Vettel to win it next week, therefore not tarring him with the “you ruined his world championship” tag line for the rest of his life was based on luck?

Nope, it was clear even webber knew what was going on.

And ask yourself how Vettel clears 10 cars in 2 laps. Something’s up.

Webber is rubbish at starts that’s for sure.

Vettel has consistently out-performed Mark Webber for the whole time they’ve been team-mates. He’s simply in another league. No amount of highlighting Webber’s ‘bad luck’ can cover this. How many times has Webber had pole, only to lose position at the start? Once Vettel is in front, he invariably disappears. Webber is a dependable journeyman who can deliver decent results, like Barrichelo, but he’s not a great driver like Vettel.

I don’t think anyone suggests Webber is a great, but neither is he a journeyman, he just isn’t in Vettels league.
A quick calc shows that webber has endured 4 dnfs this season, including Singapore. The four drivers placed above him in the table have only had one each. His average place finish for the 12 races he completed is 4.16. This would pop him up into third in the championship, above Hamiltons 4.9 and Raikkonens 4.67 average for the races they’ve finished.

As for those saying that if it weren’t for the car etc etc, don’t forget that the car is supposed to be the whole point of F1, the Drivers Championship is a secondary event. Of course.

I think what you’re saying about Webber is a bit unfair. If you look back through the results, it’s pretty much even stevens in 2009 and 2010, I think over time they’ve tuned the car to suit Vettel’s driving style more.

The other thing to consider is back then, Webber was a bit younger, and possibly a slightly hungrier competitor. At the same time, Vettel was a lot less experienced, yet to hone what I grudgingly call his raw talent.

But, Piggy has highlighted Webber’s very Australian fault – he’s absolutely rubbish at getting away at the lights. I swear it’s been bred into Australians to just sit and stare in wonderment and joy at the nice colourful lights, rather than actually planning to move forward once they change colour.

Vettel may be world champion but there is only one winner this season and that is Lewis Hamilton and this is the reason why……..

😀

I posted this in the Gifs thread but thought the F1 fans may appreciate it as well.

I was just about to re-post that here. Brilliant!

Therefore to suggest it is all down to the driver is disingenous

Where had anyone suggested that? It would be nonsensical. F1 isn’t nor does it pretend that it’s all down to the driver. No Motorsport is, not one.

Spot on with the lights thing Zokes – that pesky green always manages to sneak up once the red’s gone out and catch everyone out! Combined with the shortest cycle times in the world and you’re doing well if one car makes it through before it’s red again!

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve nearly driven through the car at the front of the lights as I’m ready to go and have started releasing the clutch, only to find that the guy in front is clearly transfixed by the fact that there is now a different colour where the red used to be. Either that, or all Australians are red-green colour blind.